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[–]IamCleaver[S] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (101 children)

Family values. Societal norms above personal freedom. Respect for traditions. That is the gist. I can give a more detailed breakdown if you want.

[–]StillLessons 7 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 3 fun -  (72 children)

Your post highlights an eternal central problem in debating politics. The language we use to define different groups has always been muddy as hell. What you are using as "conservative", for example, is sometimes described as "socially conservative". But there are people in my family who find that use of the word "conservative" offensive, because they believe conservatism is about economics, thinking social conservatives to be dupes of authoritarians. Because these terms are so frustratingly confused, the entire debate has splintered along a thousand different fractures with everyone yelling at everyone else over which ever is our particular pet peeve.

For myself, I find the most useful term (though far from perfect) to be Libertarian. I would like to have it be even more specific, as Individual Libertarian, stressing that individuals have rights that corporations DO NOT. The first and foremost right is individual personal freedom (liberty), which can be limited only after the individual demonstrates serious cause to do so (i.e. abuses the freedom of his/her neighbors). It is this fundamental natural state of individual freedom that is under direct assault by today's elite class, and that is the first priority of all conversation for me. The other pieces must all be aligned with that. This was the purpose of the Bill of Rights, now lying burning in the garbage.

Again, though, the problem is that words are very easily misused (quite intentionally, by charismatic rhetoricians), and the resulting confusion always provides politicians opportunities to abuse others for personal gain. This is the expertise of those who make their living at the public teat.

[–]IamCleaver[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (71 children)

Ok then. I am a SOCIALLY conservative socialist. I believe that the societal norms and traditions are above the wishes and freedoms of individuals. That doesn't mean that the individual is irrelevant, but one should not do what is considered socially unacceptable. You are free to express yourself as you wish as long as the society at large doesn't disapprove of it.

What do you mean by "corporations"? As in private commercial companies? I believe they should never be allowed to have any say in matters of politics and the society. Their sole function should be the generation of wealth that could then be taxed and used by the government for the good of the society. I completely agree that individuals should have more rights than corporations.

[–]JasonCarswellVoluntaryist 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (12 children)

You are free to express yourself as you wish as long as the society at large doesn't disapprove of it.

That very black and white thinking will stifle development, the arts, etc etc etc. There is wisdom in mobs, but there is also stupidity in group-think, and the tyranny of the majority can be very ugly.

[–]IamCleaver[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

I disagree. It can get out of control under certain conditions, but usually it doesn't. Humans are naturally tribalistic. We are adapted to fitting into the society we live it.

[–]VulptexVoluntaryist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Something being natural doesn't make it a good thing

[–]IamCleaver[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Good like fighting nature. I prefer to embrace it.

[–]VulptexVoluntaryist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

It's the red pill: the truth is awful.

[–]IamCleaver[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The truth is the truth. It is what it is. We should accept it and act accordingly.

[–]VulptexVoluntaryist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You accept the truth, but your refusal to admit that it's bad is a cope. Still a bluepill.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Here you are arguing FOR the SJWs.

[–]JasonCarswellVoluntaryist 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Here you are arguing FOR the SJWs.

Bullshit.

I'm arguing for creativity.
New architecture, new fashion, new literature, new cinema, new music, new anything - not just the arts. New engineering, new science, new medicine, new technology, new code, new ways to communicate. New ways to do every facet of life. Without experimentation and the ability to do new things in new ways we'll never advance.

Pink hair is new. I think it sucks, but only because of the SJW ideology it symbolizes. It was neat before 2013.

Will every new thing succeed? Hell no. But it's no reason to give up - or to lose our FREEDOM to experiment and grow.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Without a strong framework about what's acceptable and what's off-limits, degenerates will turn everything to shit. Case in point: the world we live in. Only the NSDAP ever provided such a framework. Before that, the inertia of history sufficed, and after that well... being rigtheous is now an insult.

[–]JasonCarswellVoluntaryist 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Without a strong framework about what's acceptable and what's off-limits,

Agreed.

degenerates

And counter-degenerates, and counter-counter-degenerates... Also judgementalists. These terms and systems also need fair frameworks.

It might be time to open-develop some frameworks.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Doesn't work, unless you have ethnically monolithic nations. Which... WE DON'T ANYMORE.

What do you think Christian whites, black & brown muslims, hindus, Jews, atheists, satanists and buddhists will agree on? NOTHING. They've made damned sure of that.

[–]VulptexVoluntaryist 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (57 children)

I believe that the societal norms and traditions are above the wishes and freedoms of individuals. That doesn't mean that the individual is irrelevant, but one should not do what is considered socially unacceptable. You are free to express yourself as you wish as long as the society at large doesn't disapprove of it.

Agsin, how on earth is that a good thing? That sounds like hell. Your human instincts like it but they are evil.

[–]IamCleaver[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (56 children)

Why is that evil? We live in a society. We are its members. The society is the source of morality (because there isn't anyone else). If there is a consensus that wearing a certain element of clothing is unacceptable then don't wear it publicly. Don't make people angry on purpous. As members of the society, I strongly believe it is our duty to conform to its norms. The more a society is homogeneous the less there is room for conflict, the more stable it becomes. Don't rock the boat unless it is absolutely necessary.

[–]VulptexVoluntaryist 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (32 children)

The society is the source of morality

Keep saying that but someday its worst enemy Jesus will return and overthrow the power it unrightfully stole.

As members of the society, I strongly believe it is our duty to conform to its norms.

But I never joined society. I was forced into it, and so was everyone else. We were kidnapped. We are slaves.

The more a society is homogeneous the less there is room for conflict, the more stable it becomes. Don't rock the boat unless it is absolutely necessary.

If no one can be themselves, if no one can live life, what's the point of living at all? And what's the point of having a society meant to improve peoples' lives if it ends up making it worse?

You fell for the evil human agenda. Wake up, think for yourself, stop listening to society and your instincts. They don't care about you.

[–]IamCleaver[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (31 children)

"Keep saying that but someday its worst enemy Jesus will return and overthrow the power it unrightfully stole." Or maybe Zeus. Or perhaps Vishnu...it is hard to guess. I prefer to assume non of those guys.

"But I never joined society. I was forced into it, and so was everyone else. We were kidnapped. We are slaves." What? Maybe where you live that is the case, but I personally was BORN into the society.

"If no one can be themselves, if no one can live life, what's the point of living at all?" If by your standard, being yourself is breaking the rules then you are causing more damage to others then they are causing to you (since you are one an they are many). I have no trouble living without causing discomfort to others.

"And what's the point of having a society meant to improve peoples' lives if it ends up making it worse?" The way I see it, a prosperous harmonious society is the key to improving people's lives.

[–]JasonCarswellVoluntaryist 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I have no trouble living without causing discomfort to others.

SJWs have been brainwashed to think they have a right to not be offended.

They TAKE offense at everything. Even when no offense is GIVEN.

They are STEALING our culture by destroying it.

They are not the majority but they act like it.

It will be unbearable if they do grow.

Civil war looms.

[–]VulptexVoluntaryist 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (29 children)

What? Maybe where you live that is the case, but I personally was BORN into the society.

Yeah, tell me about why you chose to be born. Oh right, you didn't, nor did you choose where, from what parents, your sex, your genetics, your looks, your talents, or anything.

If by your standard, being yourself is breaking the rules then you are causing more damage to others then they are causing to you (since you are one an they are many). I have no trouble living without causing discomfort to others.

I don't cause discomfort for others. But humans are extremely petty authoritarians and have zero tolerance for any difference at all. They will attack me for not being identical to them. Even if I literally can't help it. And when I can, I'm forced to be someone I'm not.

The way I see it, a prosperous harmonious society is the key to improving people's lives.

Or it's really the key to max procreation and your instincts' agenda. A dystopian totalitarian society which is basically a prison only benefits those who run it. It may benefit "the collective" but that is an imaginary concept; it doesn't exist. A collective is merely the sum of its individuals, thus the individual is what matters. Our instincts give us a mythical idea of the collective but they are LYING to us. Nature's agenda is procreation, it doesn't care about you or how much suffering happens and lives are devastated in the process.

[–]IamCleaver[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (28 children)

"Yeah, tell me about why you chose to be born. Oh right, you didn't, nor did you choose where, from what parents, your sex, your genetics, your looks, your talents, or anything." Well, If you don't like being born than go hang yourself (don't! I am not promoting suicide, just making a point). If you were born and raised in a society then you should have automatically picked up on its traditions and norms. Respect them.

"They will attack me for not being identical to them" Unless you really stand out in a way that is unacceptable nobody cares. What is it you are doing that makes everyone so angry (a genuine non-rhetorical question, you got me intrigued)? If you are not causing anyone discomfort then nobody should attack you.

" A collective is merely the sum of its individuals, thus the individual is what matters." I don't get that leap of logic. The collective is indeed the some of its individuals. It is the mean opinion of all its members on all matters important to them. Unless you have a very divided, unhealthy society, the majority of people should share the majority of values. The minority conforms to that collective majority.

Obviously, those few who really stand out in a way that the majority sees as unacceptable, would not like this arrangement. But they are just that. The few; the minority. Seven don't wait for one. If the majority finds it offensive for men to dress like women, then nobody should dress like a women.

[–]JasonCarswellVoluntaryist 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (19 children)

If you were born and raised in a society then you should have automatically picked up on its traditions and norms.

"Should" is a very judgemental term. Not everyone is able or willing.

[–]VulptexVoluntaryist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

If you were born and raised in a society then you should have automatically picked up on its traditions and norms. Respect them.

Why should I?

Unless you really stand out in a way that is unacceptable nobody cares.

Everything is unacceptable to humans.

The minority conforms to that collective majority.

Or they can peacefully coexist.

Obviously, those few who really stand out in a way that the majority sees as unacceptable, would not like this arrangement. But they are just that. The few; the minority. Seven don't wait for one.

You clearly have a cold heart. What meaning do you find in this?

If the majority finds it offensive for men to dress like women, then nobody should dress like a women.

Of course you bring this up. The goal of nearly every society is to let women have all the fun and have everything handed to them while the men carry all the heavy burdens and are never allowed any support or time to themselves. Fuck that, I don't deserve less for not being born a certain sex. Male biology makes our lives hard enough as it is.

[–]JasonCarswellVoluntaryist 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (22 children)

Have you gotten your mandatory vaccination?

[–]IamCleaver[S] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (21 children)

Where I live it isn't mandatory.

[–]JasonCarswellVoluntaryist 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (20 children)

I know. Lucky you. Now imagine if the mob was whipped up into a frenzy by propaganda and insisted you all take an experimental vaccination - and censored all actual science and healthy skepticism.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

Yes, just imagine Russia being one of the bastions of freedom in the XXIst century!

[–]JasonCarswellVoluntaryist 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

Yes, just imagine Russia being one of the bastions of freedom in the XXIst century!

I know, right?

Clown world, where the capitalists turn commie and the commies turn capitalist.

Now that (((they))) have taken over the world, Asia will again become the center of power.

[–]IamCleaver[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

I wouldn't mind it that much. I would take the vaccine tomorrow if I were to get at least a hundred dollars for it. Not having access to free healthcare and having to take loans to go to university is a much bigger deal for me.

[–]JasonCarswellVoluntaryist 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

I would take the vaccine tomorrow if I were to get at least a hundred dollars for it.

Suffering for the rest of your life, if you survive, is worth that little?

[–]VulptexVoluntaryist 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (23 children)

That is evil. What's the point of a better society if nobody is allowed to enjoy it? No one signed up for it anyway.

[–]IamCleaver[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (22 children)

Can you not "enjoy" the society without going against it?

[–]VulptexVoluntaryist 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (21 children)

Only if you're lucky enough to be exactly what they like, otherwise you're screwed.

[–]IamCleaver[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (20 children)

Well, if you grew up in it so you probably should share most of its values and customs. Respect them. Besides, unless it is a very unhealthy prescriptive society, it really isn't that hard to follow social norms.

[–]VulptexVoluntaryist 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (10 children)

Yes I know, most humans don't use their brains and blindly copy everyone else no matter how stupid or evil it is. That really needs to stop.

Besides, unless it is a very unhealthy prescriptive society

With humans, it always is.

it really isn't that hard to follow social norms.

For some people it is, and besides something not being hard isn't an excuse to force it on anyone.

[–]IamCleaver[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

"That really needs to stop." That is never going to stop because that is just how humans evolved to operate. We are social creatures who take up the traditions and customs of those around us. We should praise it and accept it.

"With humans, it always is." By your definition perhaps...

"For some people it is" But for most it isn't. The majority shouldn't conform to minority. If it is hard for you but fine for 90% others then tough luck. Seven don't wait for one as the saying goes.

What social norms are you so firmly against anyway. I never found it that hard to follow the norms of the society I grew up in and when I did it was my problem - not that of the society.

[–]VulptexVoluntaryist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

We should praise it and accept it.

No, we should drop our pride and stand against it because it's wrong.

But for most it isn't. The majority shouldn't conform to minority. If it is hard for you but fine for 90% others then tough luck. Seven don't wait for one as the saying goes.

That's easy for you to say when you're part of the 90%. Try to love your neighbor rather than hate your enemy, not everyone is fortunate.

What social norms are you so firmly against anyway.

Any of them. They are almost all pointless and many of them are oppressive. I'm sure you love your current social norms, but you'd change your mind if you didn't like them. Imagine an enemy takes over tomorrow and institutes their norms.

I never found it that hard to follow the norms of the society I grew up in and when I did it was my problem - not that of the society.

No, it's society's problem for not being able to tolerate someone different from them in even the tiniest matters. "It's human nature" shouldn't be an excuse to be evil.

[–]IamCleaver[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

"No, we should drop our pride and stand against it because it's wrong." Wrong because you dislike it?

"love your neighbor rather than hate your enemy," You should do both. Love those who are part of your family, your community. Hate the outsiders who wish you harm.

"Imagine an enemy takes over tomorrow and institutes their norms" Then I would go to war and try to reinstall my norms. I would not mingle with the enemy and take up his. He would probably follow my advice and try to force everyone to conform. Just because someone could use a gun against you doesn't mean you shouldn't use it against them.

"No, it's society's problem for not being able to tolerate someone different from them in even the tiniest matters." No, because the society is many and someone is ONE. One is less then many. Seven don't wait around for one.

[–]VulptexVoluntaryist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Wrong because you dislike it?

Wrong because it's responsible for evil and corruption and causes us to dehumanize others.

You should do both. Love those who are part of your family, your community. Hate the outsiders who wish you harm.

Even Hitler and Stalin loved those who loved them. Not only that, but contrary to your warped and instinct-driven view an outsider does not equal one who wishes you harm. Rather you are the one wishing them harm for being an outsider.

Then I would go to war and try to reinstall my norms.

Then you are exactly the same as them. What makes them bad and you good when you do exactly the same thing?

Seven don't wait around for one.

I never said they are obliged to. I said they shouldn't be allowed to beat one up and murder him. Is respecting another's basic human rights really too much to ask? And as your logic goes, it's really not all that hard.

[–]VulptexVoluntaryist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The majority shouldn't conform to minority.

I think you're suffering from an either/or fallacy here. Realize that neither must conform to the other. If they had to, which you seem to assume, then it would make sense for the majority to rule. But that is not the case.

[–]JasonCarswellVoluntaryist 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

you probably should share most of its values and customs. Respect them.

All governments are corrupt mafias. Some more than others. None deserve respect, especially when they demand it.

it really isn't that hard to follow social norms.

Currently there's a class war on and they're trying to depopulate the planet. Their social norms will kill millions.

Stalin killed 40 million Russians.

Mao killed 100 million Chinese.

[–]IamCleaver[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

First, no. Secondly I said you should respect the values and customs.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

Values and customs don't come from guverments OR from "elites".

[–]JasonCarswellVoluntaryist 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

They come from influencers, though you are correct, not entirely. This includes the ruling class, their puppets, and their propaganda/media.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

No, they don't come from influencers. THEY COME FROM PREVIOUS GENERATIONS. Sometimes I wonder whether you are a closet commie, just dumb, or LARPing dumb, or truly that misguided and misinformed, or what. Jesus.

[–]JasonCarswellVoluntaryist 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

They come from many places. Influencers, previous generations, common sense, superstition, pragmatism, etc etc etc.

Sometimes I wonder

Gimme a fucking break. Just because everyone doesn't think like you doesn't mean we're all commies. Sometimes I think you're brain damaged.

[–]thefirststone 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Respect for traditions.

American tradition is, at its ideal, Jeffersonion. This is opposed to centralization and empire.

If we return to tradition, as we should, then the state would be razed to fertilize liberty, not to build up stinking fortifications for new tyrants under the banner of "security".

Strangely, these are all thoughts developed by Europeans in Europe, but embraced by the decedents of those who might have a chance at implementing it.

[–]IamCleaver[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I don't envy you. I value security and stability above short term personal freedom. You seem to have a fetish with "liberty" and "democracy". I myself would much rather if the president (or the emperor if you like) weren't elected my the masses, but appointed by the previous ruler. In the US, you constantly have unpredictable elections that could go either way adding much anxiety. Not only that, but the winner usually wins within a margin of error. Honestly, if you think that a president should be elected by the people, then nobody who gets under at least 2/3 of the votes has the legitimacy to rule over others.

[–]thefirststone 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Don't put words into my mouth.

[–]IamCleaver[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Can you explain please. I never meant to.