They laugh at us

submitted by DragonerneJesus is white from self.debatealtright

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[–]literalotherkinNorm MacDonald Nationalism 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

I don't understand your position and would love you to clarify. Jews have undoubtedly created religions, ideologies and ways of life that are intensely ethnocentric -- we're all fans of KMac's trilogy surely. Christianity was the exception to the creation of ideas of the ancient Judeans/Israelites ideas though given it was universal though in my opinion not egalitarian -- we can debate that later. No orthodox interpretation until the Protestant revolution from my understanding considered 'Jews' themselves the Chosen and regularly maintained that the people of Christ, those who believe in him, are the people of Salvation. I.E the Israelites or Chosen. In fact Christ himself rebukes the Pharisees -- the progenitors of Judaism -- for telling Him that salvation comes through ancestry alone and responds that belief is salvation in the book of John which is firmly opposed to Judaism and contains some of the most 'anti-Semitic' statements imaginable. In other words Christ himself and nearly all of the people who followed him specifically said that you are not chosen just because you're related to Aaron. In fact in all of world history the most Counter-Semitic force -- despite its flaws -- has been the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

So to your point why did the Jews create a religion so hostile to them and their interests?

[–]FrenologistSaving the World 1 Cranial Exam at a Time 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

The big deception was combining the old testament with the new. The two books are diametrically opposed. The New Testament is not and never was part of the old testament. Remember, it was the Romans who decided what books would comprise the Bible. However, before the Romans gave us the Bible, the Zealots/Pharacies designed a neo-Christianity that combined the Jewish Torah with the Gnostic teachings of Christ and his disciples. By combining their religious book with the Gnostic teachings they hoped to co-opt Christianity in an attempt to gain allies/foot-soldiers in their fight against Rome. They lost their fight against Rome but, the religion remained. The Romans tamed the religion by eradicating (book-burning) all the Gnostic teachings and then rewrote many of them.

[–]SoylentCapitalist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't have time to respond to this right now but I'll get to it when I come back from work.

[–]SoylentCapitalist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

So to your point why did the Jews create a religion so hostile to them and their interests?

Convincing your entire race that you're God's chosen people has a fairly obvious morale boost. Even if unforeseen consequences lead to a divergent faction against them. I'm under the impression Jews wrote the old testament in their favor. As another poster pointed out there seems to be opposing views from the old testament and new. Yet still, correct me if I'm wrong, many Christians still follow the old testament.

No orthodox interpretation until the Protestant revolution from my understanding considered 'Jews' themselves the Chosen and regularly maintained that the people of Christ, those who believe in him, are the people of Salvation.

From my research 'chosen people' comes from the Book of Deuteronomy which was composed in Jerusalem in the 7th century BCE. This belief could well have been common amongst them before this interpretation.

[–]DragonerneJesus is white[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

And there's your problem. Jews didn't live in Jerusalem in the 7th century BC.
They were edomites that came to Judea around 150 bc, forced to live there by babylon or assyria or something like that, forgive my memory, and they were happy to do so and follow the judean laws because it was the land of their ancestors -- but here is the thing. Jacob is the promised son, Jacob is Israel, and Edomites aren't of Jacob.

[–]literalotherkinNorm MacDonald Nationalism 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Yet still, correct me if I'm wrong, many Christians still follow the old testament.

Again Protestants have tended to look more to that book for instruction which is why you have people springing up in the 17th century in England and elsewhere with names like 'Ezekiel' and 'Zedekiah' and so forth but the orthodox interpretation of the OT is complex and it's not at all taken as a prescriptive book of morals in its whole. There's incest, mass slaughter, rape, polygamy and whole raft of other things in the OT that no Catholic or Orthodox Christian subscribes to.

From my research 'chosen people' comes from the Book of Deuteronomy which was composed in Jerusalem in the 7th century BCE. This belief could well have been common amongst them before this interpretation.

Yes see dual covenant theology which is the basis for things like Christian Zionism. It's a heresy and no Catholic -- Nostra Aetate notwithstanding -- can agree with the idea that the people of the Holy Covenant aren't Christians alone. In Orthodox and Catholic teaching the 'Chosen People' are literally Christians. It's called in Covenant Theology supersessionism and the idea is that the covenant of the OT has been superseded by Christ's covenant with Christians. In fact there are entire debates in the New Testament including ones between Jesus Himself where he rebukes his disciples for attempting to make the faith one meant only for Jews. It's actually an ongoing debate in the NT and a source of conflict which was ultimately solved until the arrival of Protestantism 1600 years after the fact.

Christianity wasn't created to make the Jews the 'Chosen' in fact it's the opposite.

[–]DragonerneJesus is white[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

In fact there are entire debates in the New Testament including ones between Jesus Himself where he rebukes his disciples for attempting to make the faith one meant only for Jews.

Would you mind sharing those verses? Did you verify the translations?

Note in Christianity jews are Christians. You cannot be a jew and not be a Christian.
In Denmark we have jyder, fynboer, sjællændere. You cannot be a jyde without being a Dane. If you are not a Dane, then you are not a jyde.
The same logic applies to Christians. If you are not a Christian, you cannot be a jew.

Those that then call themselves jews against the word of God are obviously heretics, deceivers, liars, children of the devil, who is the father of all lies.

[–]literalotherkinNorm MacDonald Nationalism 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Acts and Galatians is full of arguments about this very issue which firmly fall down on the side of there being no specialness to Jewishness within Christianity. In terms of the translations this is just Christian orthodoxy. I personally haven't verified the translations given I don't speak Ancient Greek. That's what the Church is for.

Note in Christianity jews are Christians. You cannot be a jew and not be a Christian.

Could not disagree more but I don't want to get into a big theological debate.

Dragon are you Christian Identity? If so I have to say then we're just going to politely disagree about the Bible. I've known a few CI guys and I like them and have nothing against them I just think they're wrong about the Bible.

[–]literalotherkinNorm MacDonald Nationalism 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I actually think we're saying the same thing but just in a different way. I'm saying the Chosen are Christians and you are too but you're just wording it differently and saying that means they're the real Jews. Is that correct? If so I think we're kind of basically agreeing I'd just put it in different terms.

[–]DragonerneJesus is white[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Yes, the Chosen are Christians. Christians are the followers of Jesus. Israel is the promised land, the promised Race, the promised people. Through Jacob is the promise inherited.
Christians inherit the promise of God.

Judeans/jews was one tribe of Israel. Jesus came for them (and many others) and they heard him. All Judeans heard the voice of Christ and are hence called Christians today. Liars, who weren't Judeans, that didn't hear the voice of Christ (because Jesus did not come for them) but lived in Judea called themselves Judeans/jews and made a new religion called Judaism.

All Christians are the Chosen. Fake jews that believe in Judaism are not jews nor Chosen.

I believe we are saying the same thing too just in different terms. I don't mean to say that All Christians = real jews, but all real jews are Christians.

Christianity came before Judaism

[–]literalotherkinNorm MacDonald Nationalism 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Christianity came before Judaism

Agreed. Necessarily within the logic of Christian theology the faith of Abraham, David and Moses MUST be the same as Christ. It's all Christianity or what would become known as Christianity just in different forms. Jews and bad detractors of Christianity always make the mistake of saying that Moses and others were practicing 'Judaism' which doesn't make any sense within a Christian framework.

[–]FrenologistSaving the World 1 Cranial Exam at a Time 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There's a lot more to get into if we want to unravel the origins of the Jews and/or Israelis. I think its best to go back to the sons of Noah and look at the areas they were promised by, "God." The Table of Nations is a good place to start. http://www.ldolphin.org/ntable.html

[–]Jesus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

CHosen through a spiritual convenant with Christ.

What is your take on Jews being Edomites?

[–]FrenologistSaving the World 1 Cranial Exam at a Time 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The Edomites were almost certainly descendants of Shem the same as Hebrews and Ishmaelites.

[–]Jesus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

We are all saying the same thing.

[–]Jesus 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

First, the word Jew did not exist in biblical times. So, the modern Jews are today, who were they 1000 years ago? Were they the Pharisees? Or are they merely a converted people who have no right to Israel nor the promised kingdom if they reject Christ.