WotB refugees are our natural allies. I would like to sue for peace.

submitted by Tom_BombadilNational status = freedom from self.WayOfTheBern

WotB are objectively a group of critical thinkers who accept as a fact that something is wrong with the system.

To varying degrees, they each recognize that bad actors with power and influence are conspiring against the common person, and they collude to maintain control through media deception, and the apparatus of the state.

They have reached these logical conclusions from a different starting point than some that have been here for a long time.

There's no reason to have an adversarial relationship with them.
They are our natural allies and identify themselves as from the left.

We are their natural allies from a broad spectrum of politics. Unfortunately, they won't recognize us as allies if we attack them for cultural differences.

I'm a free speech purist. I'm opposed to all censoring is opinions, as I know for a fact that I've been wr9ng in the past, and will learn from others. You don't know what you don't know. Many new comers are not familiar with the facts and evidence that we have been exposed to. Much of it takes time to digest, and even more time to accept. We all went through this phase.

The WotB have already been though this process before. They have overcome their cognative dissonance, and now have a more realistic view of the world.

This requires objectivity, and critical thinking, and a willingness to do the self work to find the facts, and the truth.
They are our natural allies.

They are currently under siege and in exile from their home. Do you think they'll embrace opposing views under psychological duress? Of course not.

They'll turtle down, and circle the wagons. Who wouldn't?

It's worth considering that the WotB has already been under siege from opposition groups within Reddit. They've implemented creative solutions to identify likely enemies. And some more shadowy tactics.

That's not cool. But that's been their standard procedure for years. We can't expect them to reassess their policies while they're under attack.

What they've been done is understandable. Nothing has happened that is unforgivable.

We shouldn't react impulsively. Let's all take a step back.

I will continue to welcome and support our natural allies. Saidit is now their residence in exile for the foreseeable future.

Let the dust settle and recognize the bigger picture. We can work out policy details in time. Cooler heads will prevail.

Support our natural allies.

I sue for peace.

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[–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

A quick question: Did you also put this plea where others not inside this sub can see it? Like wherever it it is that people are complaining about this sub, outside this sub?

Or are they left to argue "their side" without your calming words of wisdom?

[–]stickdog 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Peace be with you.

[–]Xeenophile 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

What on god's green acres is this about...?

[–]InumaGaming Socialist 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Hilarity fuggin ensued

Synopsis:

4chan edgelords get The Turtle, they cry to other groups, groups come her for smoke, we provide the smoke, they all catch hands.

Overall:

Saidit and WotB are on neutral terms, We aren't on the Cool Kids Edgelord Anonymous List, and we're not on the All list while we do our thing.

[–]captainramen🇺🇸🛠️ MAGA Communist 🛠️🇺🇸 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I know there is much we can learn from each other if we can negotiate a truce. We can find a way to co-exist. Can there be a peace between us?

Jokes aside, I agree with what you say. Like the sidebar says, it's top vs bottom. Who cares about ideology? We're in serious danger of losing our civil liberties. We're in serious danger of dying in a nuclear holocaust.

[–]risistill me 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

While I appreciate your desire for peace with WOTB, is WOTB the best sub in which to post an OP seeking peace with WOTB? WOTB is not attacking WOTB.

[–]Tom_BombadilNational status = freedom[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

While I appreciate your desire for peace with WOTB, is WOTB the best sub in which to post an OP seeking peace with WOTB? WOTB is not at war with WOTB.

It was before being removed from /all. More visibility on the front page.

The overall community regulars are free speech maximalists. To the extent allowed on the site.

More importantly, influential members on WotB and the WotB mods are here, so there's no better place.

I'm asking for peace from WotB. The proposed remedy is a thicker skin for vulgarity, or strong opposing views, or racism, or profanity, etc.

There are those within Saidit who work to divide and conquer us within. We have similar internal problems.
I don't think the individuals at hand are working against the site, but it's happened before.

Regardless,

The WotB can take a punch and not flinch.
You aren't blistered by moon beams.
You can handle yourselves likes adults.

You know how the divide and conquer game goes. You've watched it unfold, and it doesn't have to be that way here.

Isolation will not improve your situation.

Pick up the ball.
Stay in the game.

Engage in diplomacy.

[–]SudoBreakSandwich 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

You know how the divide and conquer game goes. You've watched it unfold, and it doesn't have to be that way here.

---

Ten of us will strike like thunder

Hundreds of us will shatter your heart

Thousands of us will destroy and obliterate

Ten thousand of us will hand you the wrath of heaven

[–]bucetao6969Im a guest here. Do not take my opinion as of a community member 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

It was before being removed from /all. More visibility on the front page.

A lot of people on this community already had a problem with WOTB being in /s/all. Actually a lot of saidit has a problem with reddit users being in saidit in general.

Being in /s/all requires that /s/WayOfTheBern respect saidit's guidelines. But not being in /s/all allows you guys to do much pretty much whatever tf you want as long as it's not illegal. I think the mods prefered the ability to shadow ban rather than being on all.

If this was reddit your community would simply get banned. Here on Saidit you just stop getting free advertising.

[–]Tom_BombadilNational status = freedom[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

A lot of people on this community already had a problem with WOTB being in /s/all. Actually a lot of saidit has a problem with reddit users being in saidit in general.

The Reddit culture has affected everyone that's a regular.
Association influences people, and conservative views are brutalized there, and conservative people are associate with actual evil intent.

Going along to get along changes a person. What was unacceptable at Reddit years ago is now the norm. It will continue to degrade, and degrade the expectations of the community. This isn't a criticisms of you.

It's difficult to see the changes in ones self in this midst.

Things will never go back to the way it was before the strike. It was bad enough then.

You don't know what you don't know. There are very few remains places on the Internet where actual facts can be discussed openly, where new visitors can be exposed to them.

Cloistering away from s/all is a step away from learning about what really has us all enslaved. That truth simply cannot be discussed on Reddit.

Being in /s/all requires that /s/WayOfTheBern respect saidit's guidelines. But not being in /s/all allows you guys to do much pretty much whatever tf you want as long as it's not illegal.

I think the mods prefered the ability to shadow ban rather than being on all.

It is easier to ban someone, than to get 50,000 complaints from people who are blistered by moonbeans.

They are busy as it is, and they're used to this reaction being regarded as legitimate.
As long as the people regard it as legitimate.

Saidit certainly questions the legitimacy of censorship, etc. As you can see.

I strongly suspect the WotB mods each have it in them to be a benevolent leader. Although that takes way more effort, and time, etc. They're the mods of a culture of relative dissent. They are themselves victims of censorship, etc.

That's not the solution to the society they want to live in.

Suppression of other voices is part of Reddit culture. Let's call it neoReddit, because this Reddit isn't who you guys were. Hopefully, not are.

Censorships is something that people there became accustomed to. But there's a fundamental contradiction that eliminates the possibly of a solution.

It prevents the WotB from knowning the who/what/why of the system. Prevents the discussion of legitimate solutions that are powerful beyond comprehension for most.

Without accusation from me; censorship is a moral crime. I'm not pointing fingers.

Everyone deserves freedom of exchange of ideas, and freedom comes with reading what's regarded by some as bullshit.

That can only occur one way.

There's a philosophical reason for 1st amendment primacy among "classical liberal thought".

If this was reddit your community would simply get banned. Here on Saidit you just stop getting free advertising.

That's funny, and true.

But, we also have the freedom of thought, and debate, and the chance to learn information that the wealthy and powerful don't want us to know.

Censorship it's the tool of the powerful.

Information is the shield of the people.

Everyone deserves this fundamental right. Without it, we're doomed to slavery.

[–]captainramen🇺🇸🛠️ MAGA Communist 🛠️🇺🇸 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I was shadowbanned from r/Conservative when I requested my flair. Conservatives are only allowed there if they're the liberal kind. It's just another shitlib sub now

[–]InumaGaming Socialist 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

We never gave two caps about the community outside this one.

Ya'll put that in there to gatekeep.

When we were small, no one cared about that rule.

The minute this place starts growing or regulating?

OMG! END OF DA WUUUURRRRLLLD!

We got crybullies in the chat, people yelling at us regulars, calls that our mods need to go (when they've been here and putting in work to enrich THIS sub), yells that we should go back to Reddit, called all sorts of names including kikes and where do you stand?

Right there with the a-holes coming in here to piss on the carpet.

I swear, if the edgelord brain gets any more immature, I'll just believe Boss Baby is in control of those accounts and pray more old timers in this community can act with some common sense.

[–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I think the mods prefered the ability to shadow ban rather than being on all.

That's not shadow banning.
How can it be a "shadowban" if their words can be seen by all, and they know how to make their words be seen by all?

If this was reddit your community would simply get banned.

That's actually one of the funny parts of this. Over and over, we have been told "this is not reddit. we don't do that here."
At Reddit, for years we have been told "this is reddit. we don't do that here."

What we do here, and there, is as much Reddit as it is Saidit, and is as much not Reddit as it is not Saidit.

The ability to do what we do is in the base code of both. And what can be done... can be done.

And has rarely been done anywhere else. It is not a Reddit Thing; it is not a Saidit thing; it is a WayoftheBern thing.

When we started doing What We Do almost seven years ago, certain people in Reddit started freaking out about it, just like certain people in Saidit are freaking out now. To us, this is nothing new. But to you, it is.

And that's a rare thing. Something New. A lot of people do not know how to deal with Something New.

In all the years in which we have done this only one other sub has come to us to learn this -- a group of ex-Mormons trying to deal with non-ex-Mormons invading their sub. We willingly gave them what we knew, in hopes it would help.

But other than that, just us.

[–]risistill me 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Did you deliberately ignore my point?

As far as diplomacy, funny you should say that. I recently finished telling the maligned u/penelopepnortney that I could use more of it. https://saidit.net/s/WayOfTheBern/comments/b03y/hunter_bidens_charges_are_nothing_but_a_diversion/12qly

Unlike snowflakes, however, I'm willing to accept consequences of my posts.

I have zero tolerance for bigotry, and even less for pretending it's only another kind of "opinion."

[–]penelopepnortneyBecome ungovernable 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I have zero tolerance for bigotry, and even less for pretending it's only another kind of "opinion."

Great point.

[–]risistill me 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you.

Personally, I liked

Unlike snowflakes, however, I'm willing to accept consequences of my posts.

[–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

The proposed remedy is a thicker skin for vulgarity, or strong opposing views, or racism, or profanity, etc.

The other proposed remedy would be a thicker skin for saying "I like turtles" when that requirement is set. Or not saying it, but not saying it somewhere else.

[–]3andfro 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Indeed. Why should remedies be one-sided? When a line is crossed, the penalty should be on the one who crossed it, not (exclusively) on those who have the right to state where the line is and have no problem staying on the other side of it.

It's an axiom of the traveler that one obeys local rules or disregards them at one's peril. When in Rome, etc. Don't like it? Stick to more compatible lands.

[–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

For years we have been told that it is always WE who must move so that we can all "stand together," and that THEY never have to budge.

Now it is being said that WE must grow a "thicker skin" because of the sensitivities of others with (apparently) much thinner skin.
Who apparently have no reason, no desire, no intention of ever growing any "thicker skin" of their own.

It sounds like yet another iteration of "we must compromise by us all doing what it is *I* want."
"It doesn't matter, so do it MY way" is a similar sentiment.

We've been dealing with that sort of thing longer than there has been a Saidit.

[–]3andfro 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

I see a lot of spoiled children who never won anything on merit but took their participation ribbons as a sign that they're special.

[–]risistill me 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

A better remedy: Stop posting bigotry to test the boundaries of a sub. Even better: Stop being a bigot.

[–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

to test the boundaries of a sub.

You may have hit upon the the actual main kernel of the problem right there.

And their "testing of the boundaries" of this sub seems to have "tested the boundaries" of Saidit.

When one first discovers Saidit, one will see a watered down Reddit, with posts coming from standard, well-curated subs.

Only later will they find out that what they are seeing is not all of Saidit -- there's the rest of Saidit over at s/all.

And then later, some of those people will discover that s/all is a lie --- s/all is not ALL of Saidit. There is yet more.

An unknown-sized sweeping vista of subs that have been cast out of the peer-reviewed, peer-pressured conformity of s/all.

So my question is (not to you specifically, I still have to find where it goes): Is there a way to see the actual all of Saidit? Like Simba, I am curious about the shadow area that Mufasa said not to go to.

Another way to ask the question: How do I see a list of all the posts made in actual all of Saidit that have been made in the past half hour?
For all I know there could be a few subs out there with tens of thousands of subscribers, that have posts with absolute gobs of discussion hidden behind the curtain of s/(not-really)all.

Is there a way to see the actual all of Saidit? Or has a large chunk of Saidit been tucked away like a cousin no one speaks of in the name of alleged "free speech"?

[–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Peace was always available here.

Don't start nothing, won't be nothing

-- Agent Jay, Men in Black

[–]Maniak🥃😾 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Correct on all count, with one nitpick:

And some more shadowy tactics.

There's nothing shadowy in anything that's been done. If it was shadowy, there wouldn't be a clear message sent each time to explain the reason and the (very light) penalty. Nothing is hidden, it's all out there.

There's a major difference between disagreeing with an approach and that approach being somehow "shadowy". There's a reason behind the madness, it's the best compromise that has been found yet, from our side of the coin, between a schoolyard filled with 12 year old edgelords and a censored echochamber of intolerant assholes.

Dickishness is balanced out by carrying a shell, and showing a lesser degree of dickishness is usually more than enough to get the shell removed. That's it. That's the rule. The only rule.

If this is "too much" for some, well, sorry not sorry, maybe the lack of tolerance is not coming from here. Throwing a hissy fit at the most minor perceived slight is not going to help, that's for sure. If anything, it shows that the system is working as intended.

We're trying to encourage discourse here. Jumping in every other thread to throw insults all around for no reason just because it's what the kool kidz do, that's not it. But it can still be done, while proudly carrying the corresponding shell as a badge of edgy kool kidz honor. Throwing insults when justified is perfectly okay, such as when observing that Reddit's CEO is a major cunt of the higher order. It's the "all around for no reason" that is likely to make the shell appear.

 

Now, what about focusing on the actual issues that actually matter instead of the grave offense that is having to develop an appreciation for turtles in order to throw shit all around?

The turtle is good, the turtle is nice, the turtle is your friend, love the turtle. Hover over the banner and say hello to the turtle.

And the turtle is absolutely not interested in any kind of endless argument over itself.

[–]Tom_BombadilNational status = freedom[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

what about focusing on the actual issues that actually matter instead of the grave offense that is having to develop an appreciation for turtles in order to throw shit all around?

It's difficult to objectively investigate things that contradict one's world view.

How deep have you looked into his claims of fact(s)?

Would you look, if I provided the sources?

[–]Promyka5When in the course of human events... 12 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 2 fun -  (18 children)

It's a misunderstanding that Wayers are all on the Left. Many are conservatives, anarchists, libertarians, and in short, people outside the political establishment, all of whom see that it is the very establishment that is their true enemy, more so than those other marginalized voices against whom they're encouraged to spar by the establishment itself. There's no way the Left can take down the establishment unaided, any more than the Right can by itself. Strange bedfellows on many issues, but natural allies when it comes to the most important issue of all: liberating ourselves from the oppression that the establishment brings to bear in order to preserve and consolidate its own power.

To quote Sinead O'Connor, as I often do on this point, "Fight the real enemy."

Oops, before I forget: Welcome to WotB!

[–]Tom_BombadilNational status = freedom[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It's a misunderstanding that Wayers are all on the Left.

I agree. It's a population of unique individuals.

[–]Promyka5When in the course of human events... 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

All of whom are welcome (assuming their good faith), including yourself. The most important thing to know about WotB is contained in the sidebar, where it explains that we don't do Left-vs-Right, but top-vs-bottom, or perhaps better said, elites-vs-We-The-People.

Throwing off our oppressors will be facilitated by the realization that those oppressors are not our neighbors, co-workers, and family members, but the kind of people whom we will never meet becuase of how they work to insulate themselves from us due to their indubitably qualitative superiority over the rest of us, the rabble.

[–]InumaGaming Socialist 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (15 children)

Yeah, arguably it's everyone illiberal versus liberal now.

Same class dynamics but no longer left and right. A lot of people don't understand that because they're still stuck on the old conventions and be brought up to speed.

[–]Tom_BombadilNational status = freedom[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

arguably it's everyone illiberal versus liberal now.

The media manipulators and politicians have modified the meaning of "liberal".

"Classical liberal" would encompass most of the WotB.

"Classical liberalism" would also include many who claim to be "conservative", as they've changed the meaning of that term, as well.

Most have no idea what liberalism originally meant.

"Classical liberalism" is unrelated to "neoliberalism".

[–]captainramen🇺🇸🛠️ MAGA Communist 🛠️🇺🇸 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Classical liberalism is not sustainable. Sooner or later some asshole is going to monopolize all the farmland and / or pressure the government to force everyone to inject mystery juice into their blood.

[–]InumaGaming Socialist 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

To hell we are.

We call out liberal policies all the damn time. The point of the critique is that ANYTHING outside liberalism is attacked. Jill Stein got just as much flack as Trump in 2016 and that's just the start of pointing out we're all a target as illiberals regardless of our background.

[–]Tom_BombadilNational status = freedom[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

I believe that I have made the mistake of assuming that everyone at WotB understood what classical liberalism is, and classical liberal thought entailed.
Philosophically.

It's worth looking into. I doubt you'll disagree with me after you do.

Edit: Classical liberal thought ~ Enlightenment philosophers.

Not a precise definition, but for those who won't look it does the job.

Classic conservatism was the other side of the coin; an equally principled philosophical view.

If you're not familiar with Classical liberalism, then I won't bore you with the nuance.

[–]InumaGaming Socialist 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

I already know it including the neoliberal economics and who practices what both domestically and in regards to foreign policy.

That's isn't the point.

The point is that regardless of where you feel on that, the issue is you're a target of the liberal as an illiberal.

[–]Tom_BombadilNational status = freedom[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

The point is that regardless of where you feel on that, the issue is you're a target of the liberal as an illiberal.

In not sure I'd use that term.

Socalled liberals are attacking everything. Everything.

They can't tell you what a woman is, but they are certain that all opposing views are held by evil people. Or by those of malicious intent.

I can tell you that the WorB is now cloistered away from new ideas, and I guarantee you haven't heard what discussed here.

People are afraid to discuss some ideas in most places.

My personal quest is to show any American how they can remove their legal and political person from the jurisdiction of the administrative state (agencies, regulation, coffee, etc.). The most tangible benefit is your no longer on the hook for income taxes. You'll still pay other taxes.

Just not the tax on your labor, because free people aren't taxed on their labor. People who are subject to feudal law address taxed on their labor.

It's a solution as a legal fact, but I can't get anyone to listen. A failure of imagination, I suppose. Too good to be true.
But it's true.

I'd like to post a comprehensive explanation here in the near future.

That's my thing. I'm trying to free little who don't understand that they're enslaved in a legal matrix.
Exiting the matrix is easy if you know how.

[–]3andfro 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

And here, with u/Inuma and u/Tom_Bombadil, we have an example of respectful discussion and disagreement--what WotB seeks to promote.

Simple fact: This sub may not be a good fit for those who find the embrace of civil discourse a strain.

[–]EddieC 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

And here, with u/Inuma and u/Tom_Bombadil, we have an example of respectful discussion and disagreement--what WoTB seeks to promote.

 
u/Inuma, u/Tom_Bombadil
It is not enough --
IF WoTB does not have pinned posts for solutions
The Problem does not get solved!!!
 

[–]3andfro 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I respectfully disagree and find the responses of u/penelopepnortney and u/Netweasel to your linked post to be reasonable.

[–]Tom_BombadilNational status = freedom[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah. I had requested a pinned or sticky for a post.

[–]InumaGaming Socialist 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I'm literally pointing out that it's becoming that issue.

It doesn't matter if you're communist, socialist, anarchist, libertarian, or conservative...

All those groups are finding themselves against liberal institutions. That has been my point.

And no, we aren't grouped out. Stick around and watch how we talk domestic policies, foreign policy, and everything else.

Walk a mile in our shoes.

Usually our group is the one leading the pack.

And that's not a boast.

BTW, we hate woke nonsense too.

[–]BlackhaloPurity Pony: Pусский бот 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

BTW, we hate woke nonsense too.

Most of us. There are some holdouts.

[–]CaelianPost No Toasties 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Pax vobiscum

[–]InumaGaming Socialist 12 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

They want the smoke, they get the smoke.

They want peace, they get peace.

We equal opportunity in here.