Yes, trolls add value to a community - The life and times of the Turtle Tax

submitted by InumaGaming Socialist from self.WayOfTheBern

Howdy folks. If you've recently seen the dust up, you'll see that a mod was targeted, a brigade ensued, and a lot of people left very unhappy and upset while they pretended they were LEEROOOOY MMJENNKINSSSS!!!!

This sub tends to have fun with catnip especially when they come in. At the basis of this is the debate of moderation and how a community decides on its members.

What's been interesting is to see and analyze the responses to it.

As mentioned, the Turtle Tax is born out of a need to tone down a behavior we see constantly in Reddit but is usually not thought of that much: What can a mod team do that helps grow a community without shutting down conversation?

If you're looking over your fiefdom and someone is misbehaving, would you have them exiled immediately?

If you're just a janitor and you want that Hot Pocket while you do it for free, would you just hit the ban button?

In most cases, what's easy for some is merely the well worn road that most go on. The default subs made that choice which lead to digital migration as we've stated for years on Saidit. In short, bans lead to stagnant growth. How can you learn what the misinformed are going to say if they're out of sight, out of mind? When people are out of sight, out of mind, that leads to a blind spot.

Now let's see what happens on Reddit due to a tax being put onto a post:

Moekeo123 is a far more advanced troll so he's got a larger tax on his postings.

Everyone knows he's a troll. Go through his post counts and see how many times he actually responds to arguments instead of talking down to people he doesn't like or calls a Russian cultist.

Man can still post he just has to tell what he likes...

Thundercoc101 is just lower level. He got the green shell of "I like turtles".

This is just the most recent examples, but there's been the smart ones, the false reporters, and the ones that go to the mod room to complain about the Turtle.

The rule is simple. Don't be a dick. If you want to swing your e-peen in public, don't be surprised when someone kicks you in the nuts for it. You can talk and say whatever you want but the more you swing that thing, the harsher that nut kick's gonna be. And that's certainly DanceAbel. Or else there's also a Mountain Goat waiting for ya.

If people truly think a Turtle tax is permanent, it's only as permanent as the trolling continues. You like civil discourse? You tone down the e-peen swing. If you need continuous justification for mudslinging or stereotypes, that's YOUR crutch, not others.

Within this community, you'll find plenty of people with different styles: Intelligentsia, activist, humor, etc. What you won't find much in this community is attacks of character as we've mostly had those before and experienced them elsewhere. We've seen the turtle. We've seen the blue shell. We watch and laugh. Then we drift the corner with the Luigi Death Stare as we work on other things.

The Turtle is not permanent. The value of everyone to contribute to the community is. And if a mod has to do that Luigi Death Stare and you hear boss music...

Well...

They see me rollin...

all 45 comments
sorted by:
new (suggested)
topinsightfulfun

[–]JimAtEOI 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I wish I knew what you were saying.

[–]SudoBreakSandwich 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Was that really only 5 days ago?

[–]bootylicious 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (31 children)

a brigade ensued, and a lot of people left very unhappy and upset while they pretended they were LEEROOOOY MMJENNKINSSSS!!!!

No - not at all what happened.

10 Saiditors commented on the turtle tax, and 3 Saiditors were particularly annoyed, noting how insulting it is and how moderators apply it for obviously frivolous reasons, to attack people who disagree with the WatB hive mind, and the shelled users assume it's a permanent penalty, and thus shelled users do one of two things:

1) Leave (because they don't want to be insulted with the 'I like turtles' tag that identifies them as hated users)

2) Stay on WatB because they have absolutely no self respect.

As we've discussed at length, Inuma, the standard practice is a temporary ban (noting a week or a month), rather than this permanent shelling insult against a user who merely does not agree. (Yes, you note that it's not permanent, but the new user who is shelled is not told that (another example of very bad management). WatB has dwindled from 90,000 subscribers to Saidit's 45 WatB subscribers, half of which are active, partially because of these insults, and also because WatB is mostly devoted to spreading misinformation, as we've seen for years.) Hope this brings people up to date. There was no brigading, by any stretch of the imagination.

[–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle 7 insightful - 5 fun7 insightful - 4 fun8 insightful - 5 fun -  (3 children)

10 Saiditors commented on the turtle tax, and 3 Saiditors were particularly annoyed

Wait...

So you're saying that this whole tempest-in-a-teapot of "S/WotB must be removed from s/all" was because THREE PEOPLE pitched a bitch about The Turtle? And those three were less than 25% of the "saiditors" (I'll get back to that in a minute) who said anything at all?

I'm also curious as to how many of the alleged "gang of thirteen" were actually you, but I'd probably never get a believable answer to that.

There were probably more than 13 people discussing this particular issue, but it sounds like a hefty percentage of them, you for some reason do not count as "saiditors." Sounds like a No True Saiditer Fallacy to add to your previous one. Or ones.

BTW, it says on your profile page "Saiditter for 1 year." With an E.
Not that I would expect correct spelling from you.....

[–]InumaGaming Socialist[S] 9 insightful - 4 fun9 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 4 fun -  (2 children)

You want to hear something amazing? I've been on Saidit longer.

I've had the account two years. We helped build it and one of the archives by Penelope is in the links above from a goddamn YEAR ago.

And how long has WotB been on Saidit? Five. Goddamn. Years.

We're one of the oldest communities that has opted to tell people to grow here. We can grow with or without everyone else which is what makes these accusations so amazing.

Everyone keeps thinking that they're on the high end of the totem pole and WotB has already gone much higher.

Like, Patrick Lancaster comes to WotB BECAUSE we treated him right and were talking about the Donbas.

Tulsi Gabbard had an AMA at Way BECAUSE some in the community told her how we cared about her getting her message out.

How many of the Saiditors reach out of their little bubble to connect with people and know Jose Vargas after he called out AOC?

It's just mind blowing the arrogance that these people have with their worlds so closed.

Talk about small outreach... I told Zapped a while back that they do really piss poor diplomacy because eventually, those chickens are going to come home to roost. They're going to be stagnant while WotB:Saidit Edition is going to blow all their subs out of the water.

No one to blame but themselves.

[–]penelopepnortneyBecome ungovernable 4 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

If they had awards here, I'd give you one for this comment. Go get 'em, tiger.

[–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

You want to hear something amazing? I've been on Saidit longer.

I was just pointing out yet another of their spelling errors......

[–]3andfro 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

how moderators apply it for obviously frivolous reasons, to attack people who disagree with the WatB hive mind

Not at all, on either count. The fact you say that says a lot about you.

We all bring our personal lens to what we see and how we interpret it.

[–]InumaGaming Socialist[S] 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

You can just tell he didn't read the entire thing, nor look at any of the links, nor even listen to anything written.

He'd already had his conclusion before getting ANY of the facts and this entire thing is about one incident HERE instead of how the Turtle Tax allows all trolls to be a part of the community even if they're odious...

SMDH

[–]3andfro 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

SMDH + eyeroll

[–]InumaGaming Socialist[S] 6 insightful - 4 fun6 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 4 fun -  (23 children)

Dude, it's a hyperbolic statement meant to be humorous right along with posts to shells and the Luigi Death Stare and Nuts vs Guts music video about getting kicked in the dick and boots to the cooch.

RELAX!

And the shortened version of Way of the Bern is WotB, not WatB.

Goddamn man...

[–]Centaurea 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

the shortened version of Way of the Bern is WotB

😮 Well, darn it. All this time, I've been capitalizing the "T". WoTB.

[–]InumaGaming Socialist[S] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Well, most people shorten it because they don't "Feel THE Bern" after bernie put out his fire. So you're good.

[–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Well one thing that I do have to give credit to BootyBoy for....

His misnomer did lead to a name which may be even better than the original one:
We ARE The Bern.

[–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

bootylicious: You posted this in bad faith?

Thought he said for you not to talk to him.

I wonder if the Master of Free Speech over there is gonna try to get this post removed.

[–]bootylicious 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

You posted this in bad faith?

I'm just adding to your comments. Happy to help. No big deal.

[–]InumaGaming Socialist[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

That's pretty disingenuous even for you when you can't grasp humor and intentionally create obtuse reaches as you do.

But hey, you do you.

[–]bootylicious 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

meant to be humorous

if it's not funny, you can't blame anyone for assuming you're trying to post in good faith.

[–]InumaGaming Socialist[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Not my fault you impacted your funny bone. Nor my fault you reach for conclusions that are perfectly illogical.

[–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

That one does not appear to be too bright.....

WatB has dwindled from 90,000 subscribers to Saidit's 45 WatB subscribers

<looks at sidebar, sees "19,804 readers"> [Edit, 10 minutes later: 19,805]
I remember seeing, on June 13th of this year, 19,750 "readers" here. (We have archives) Do the math.

They recently claimed to have been a member of "r/WatB" from way back, and the sub ain't what it used to be. And they never saw a Turtle in all that time that they were (allegedly) there.
They offered no proof of this (as ones who make such a claim almost never do.)

[–]bootylicious 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Years ago, Saidit recorded every visitor to a sub by referring to that visitor as a 'reader', adding up to 40k readers over the years for some subs. There have been 19,805 individual visitors to WatB since its creation years ago. And as you correctly note, there have been 54 total readers at WatB since 13 June (15 of whom are currently here).

[–][deleted]  (3 children)

[deleted]

    [–]BlackhaloPurity Pony: Pусский бот 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

    were

    Were? I'm pretty sure that's a steady-state.

    [–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

    Continually doubling down on a series of mistaken assertions

    Is it actually "doubling down" or is it "making the pile higher"?

    [–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    https://saidit.net/subs/?count=100&after=t4_3j

    /s/WayOfTheBern: Feel the Bern! 19,805 subscribers, a community for 5 years

    [–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    Saidit recorded every visitor to a sub by referring to that visitor as a 'reader'

    If that is going on now, that it is measuring a total of people who have been here.....
    How is it that the numbers can go down?

    I can think of much better uses for a time machine.....

    [–]bootylicious 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    I don't know

    [–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

    I don't know

    Most honest thing you've said in this whole thread.

    [–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Years ago, Saidit recorded every visitor to a sub by referring to that visitor as a 'reader'

    Hmm. That would mean that if I went in through a "private window," Saidit would see me as a "new visitor" and the numbers would go up, right?

    (That is checkable)

    [–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    Well. Communication has been breached, which means the block suggested by The Butthurt One was not done.
    Good to know.

    So... how does one get to the actual numbers of people subscribed to a sub?

    and while I'm at it....

    • How many comments were made in all of Saidit in the past 24 hours?
    • How many comments were made in just the subs in s/all in the past 24 hours?
    • How many comments were made in s/WotB in the past 24 hours?

    Also, you mean to tell me that in the past about five years, there have only been fewer than 50,000 people who have even looked at Saidti?? And that almost half of those looked at s/WOTB??

    [–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I did find this:

    https://saidit.net/s/all/comments/ -- 100th most recent comment: 4 hours ago.
    https://saidit.net/s/WayoftheBern/comments/ -- 100th most recent comment: 8 hours ago.
    (if one wishes to verify, use an incognito window -- some subs you are subbed to will be included in the /all list)

    IIRC, WotB's estimated 300 comments/day are not included in s/all's estimated 600 comments/day.

    [–]InumaGaming Socialist[S] 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

    I asked him to validate his statement and he left in a huff in telling me to leave him alone too.

    So sure, I'll leave him alone. The topic is there, he doesn't know the in jokes, the people, he comes to inane conclusions, and merely speaks as if he's our Lord and Master instead of understanding the Church of Katakuri

    All I can do is pray for him.

    In the name of the Mama...

    The Second Son...

    And the holy... DOOOOOOONUTS!!!!

    (This man needs their guidance...)

    A-men...

    [–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    telling me to leave him alone too.

    I said it then; I'll say it now... Welp, so much for Free Speech.

    Also, by his "reckoning" another "third" of the "no brigading, by any stretch of the imagination" suggested to his third of the "no brigading, by any stretch of the imagination" that he block me.

    If he did, since this is Saidit/"oldReddit", I still have the Free Speech to have my words seen by others. Just not him. I don't see that as a loss.

    [–]Orochiwe don't need no water let the mother[honk] burn 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    When the shelled came crying about "censorship" and "echo chambers" the question I often asked them that, to date, have I never gotten a reply to was, "Which subs do it better?"

    [–]CaelianPost No Toasties 4 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

    Trolls used to add Saabs to the community :-)

    Yep, I'm old.

    [–]kingsmegLiberté, égalité, fraternité 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

    Agree that there is little value in being in an echo chamber, protected from opposing points of view. But gawd some of these trolls can be annoying. And many of them are professionals, trained to be disruptive by our friendly letter agencies who use them to disrupt communities they want to control or repress.

    So thank you to the mods for wading through all this bullshit. It's a dirty job but someone has to do it.

    [–]NetweaselContinuing the struggle 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

    professionals, trained to be disruptive by our friendly letter agencies who use them to disrupt communities they want to control or repress.

    ...and when suddenly their "magic words of disruption" stop working, they lose their shit and go running off to Mommy, because somebody's not playing fair.

    [–]kingsmegLiberté, égalité, fraternité 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

    That's a big part of their training. Provoke some sort of reaction, usually in a concerted fashion, then run off to mods/admin to complain and get the forum shut down.

    [–]InumaGaming Socialist[S] 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

    Oh man, Active Measures did that a LOT.

    They eventually had to lick their wounds and realize the place was NEVER going to bend to them. The locals loved toying with them, the mods kept having fun, and eventually they got called out for being hypocrites and really only grumbled and groused in THEIR corner when the embarrassment got too much.

    They thought they could get the bots on us, well, those got Turtled... Then they thought they could stalk other people around Reddit... Well, there's rules against that... Oh, their next best idea? Run into the sub at the same time and get told to do X... Well that's brigading. So now, all they can do is claim we're right wingers while they get less clout.

    [–][deleted]  (7 children)

    [deleted]

      [–]BlackhaloPurity Pony: Pусский бот 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

      can/will be removed if the miscreant straightens up and flies right

      I'm making an informed guess that that is going to chafe even more with the "free-speech" absolutists currently railing against the turtle.

      [–]InumaGaming Socialist[S] 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

      There has been a HUGE BSOD from them because they don't have conformity in some regard.

      This is one of the biggest things to occur for a damn near cultural crisis point. It's just as found in the sidebar... Disagreement kills compliance

      Like, for a hot minute I was wondering why that was but the troll yelling about the turtle gave it away...

      If THIS gets popular here, they gotta change how they do things. A ban means you fire up your alt account and don't do what was ban worthy in the first place. A turtle means you can still contribute but that feeling of pride and accomplishment is gone because all you gotta do is write the dreaded words on the chalkboard.

      What is basically happening is a fear of the unknown as they've never experienced anything but Eye of Sauron moderation. And training people out of that takes time so we'll see how this goes in the future.

      [–]penelopepnortneyBecome ungovernable 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

      Added to the sidebar under "Background reading".

      [–]InumaGaming Socialist[S] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

      By the way, Wrongthing jpeg is no longer up. Might as well change it to a Youtube video instead of the picture. I don't know how a lot of sites feel about hotlinking.

      [–]penelopepnortneyBecome ungovernable 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      I just screencapped from the video and archived that because linking directly to the image in imgur.com didn't cut it (either it turned up an empty page or required you to attest you were over 18 to see it). I'm sure it can be worked out but I just don't have the patience to deal with it right now.

      [–]InumaGaming Socialist[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

      Added.

      [–]InumaGaming Socialist[S] 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

      In providing for the Turtle Tax, there's a far larger issue going on that I only hinted at here. I have to do a bit more research, but consider this a look at the Turtle and how trolls can add to a community with their presence.