all 23 comments

[–][deleted] 27 insightful - 1 fun27 insightful - 0 fun28 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Thank you for this. I watched a film called The Butches and it was very insightful about butch women and their lives. It tackled misconceptions and the things they uniquely face for being MOC in a world that has certain expectations toward women.

From my gf's perspective (she is very butch), she calls the treatment of butches as if there are "too many cooks in the kitchen" about her body, about what she's supposed to think, how she's supposed to act. There are too many expectations and assumptions about being butch without sometimes getting to know them. Or, sometimes meeting one and making sweeping generalizations that all butches do this or that.

I am curious as to what our butch lesbians have to say. Thank you for this post!

[–][deleted] 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No problem. This is a matter that is very close to my heart, being a butch lesbian in the flesh in all. I've seen many people, particularly radical feminists, making generalizations and talking about us like the five to ten butches they've been anywhere acquainted with are a good sample size of the whole.

[–]Innisfree 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Found myself in the "too many cooks in the kitchen" comment. Thanks for the film suggestion!

[–]florasis 21 insightful - 1 fun21 insightful - 0 fun22 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

In fact, we will see and starting to see more and more butch lesbians starting to transition.Especially the very young generation is pretty fucked with the whole gender ideology pushed onto them. I don't even get the complain about "invisble lesbians", or is that supposed to be bad. Cause the idea of anyone even to know sexuality just by looking doesn't seem appealing nor necessary, and can just create more trouble than anything else. Like your experience says. Butch women for being very visible lesbian and not fitting stereotype, surely will experience struggle that someone who just go unnoticed won't.

[–]LeaveAmsgAfterBeep 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I am also butch and I really appreciate this post. My experiences and takes are very similar across many of your points here. On the desire to hide and disappear as part of what went into my dysphoric feelings as well as mental illness, trauma, and social bullshit (not that all butches experience this either). Thank you for sharing.

[–]reluctant_commenter 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

:( did you delete your account? I'll miss you...

edit: sorry I am not trying to guilt trip you lol, if you read this. I really enjoy hearing your thoughts though, I hope you come back someday dude.

edit2: I have not been keeping up today, I only just read the other threads about being butch. All I have to say is, if you want to talk or rant, please feel free to reach out and hit me up. Whatever the case, much love.

[–]Innisfree 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Adding my name to what RC says here. Hope you're taking care of yourself and focusing on what's important for you.

[–][deleted]  (3 children)


    [–]Innisfree 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

    My God, I nearly dropped my tea!

    I almost thought you decided to leave us in darkness, instead of bringing balance to the force lol.

    Good to have you back. :)

    [–][deleted]  (1 child)


      [–]Innisfree 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      I like your framing. "Present" suggests good stuff.

      I cant deny I'm hoping you'll keep being active and sharing your views. But if like you said elsewhere, you'd rather not because, after all it takes a lot of energy, that's alright :).

      [–]florasis 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

      Very strange to write a post and then deleting the account.

      [–]votkriscan 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

      Her deletion is due to an argument with one/two of the other posters in another thread, in which she felt quite upset about.

      [–][deleted] 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

      ahh i hope you return again someday if you want. :(

      [–][deleted]  (1 child)


        [–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

        yo!! hope you're ok, always enjoyed your posts & wouldn't want you to be without a community because of a misunderstanding or something. i understand what you say about not wanting to explain every little detail, & you don't owe that to anyone. thank you for sharing what you have though. my inbox is also open if you need it, i don't have much to say but i can always listen!! all the best to you in whatever you decide to do, whether it's post, lurk, or take a break. :)

        [–]Innisfree 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

        Thank you for sharing your experience. I find a lot of commonalities. I'd like to share mine under the banner of:

        constant strain with disillusionment from masculinity and womanhood.

        The defining experience for me was loneliness. Now, when puberty hit my only friends - a few guys, began to shun me. (I related a lot to what u/whateverman said on the thread on SW). And I didn't understand why at the time. That was painful. The girls just tolerated me. But I stayed away from them because i was afraid of any potential homophobia/gay panic etc. So, as a MOC woman you end up always on the outside looking in. And it isn't kind to anyone's self-esteem. But if, like OP says, you have trauma on top of that, well I can only imagine how tough it is.

        The truth is, I still don't make friends or socialize as much. I find it tiring stepping outside as a masculine woman. I don't have the energy to always deal with whatever shitty person I will meet today on my commute etc. Sure we cope, I'm just saying it's tiring at best, and actually dangerous at worst.

        Just realized why I have trouble writing this post: I've been isolating and distancing from people for so long, zoning out when I'm in public and suppressing any negative memories (which is easy, I'm really forgetful :) ) that at this point I just buried most of my past experiences as a butch. Here's to living in our heads/dream worlds! :)

        Edit: cut a point on emotional development I brought in previous threads.

        [–][deleted]  (1 child)


          [–]Innisfree 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

          It's nice to hear one was not alone in one's aloneness. :)

          And particularly:

          beginning to find myself and speak out for myself.

          That just makes my heart swell and gives me hope for my own journey.

          And heck, I hope one day we'll get to read about your dream world cover to cover.

          [–]Dykexmachina 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

          I agree and can relate to pretty much everything you said. I understand that frustration of just wanting to be treated like a human being instead of some ideological symbol in people's heads. I agree that the way radfems and other feminists talk about us is infantilizing and corny. It's bad enough dealing with conservatives as it is. I think non-butch women should amplify the voices of butch women instead of acting like they're an expert on our lives and talking about us only in relation to sex or men. Most times when I see some corny post about butches on tumblr or twitter or wherever, written by non-butch women, I get so irritated because of how presumptuous it is. I can't relate much to the things I read about what butch women are supposed to be like. People say shit like "butches are SO soft and sweet! Stop stereotyping them! Butches are this/that/whatever" and I'm like, I can't relate lol. I can actually be pretty abrasive and angry at times, because I'm human.

          I'm always shocked when people think we have privilege for being masculine. I relate so much to the part where you said "there is absolutely no benefit to appearing and behaving in a masculine way. In fact, it's quite the opposite. For every lesbian who's able to see me, I experience three homophobic incidents. For every woman who makes googly eyes at me, ten look at me like roadkill. I'm not saying it's not a difficult experience being an "invisible" lesbian, but it's absolutely not a privilege to be visible in most cases." It's like some people forget how bad homophobia in the real world can be. I could write a fucking book at this point about the things that have happened to me because of my perceived masculinity.

          I'm sorry you're having a hard time right now. I know what you mean about wanting to give up on articulating your life experiences for people who often won't listen. I've almost given up many times. I've even tried to look a little more feminine because I was so sick of the way people were treating me. Especially because I was a janitor at a casino for 4 years. I had to wear some makeup to let the guests know I was female, but it still didn't work a lot of the time lol. Anyways, people who say butches have privilege for being masculine obviously don't have a clue about what our daily lives are actually like.

          [–]reluctant_commenter 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

          I think non-butch women should amplify the voices of butch women instead of acting like they're an expert on our lives and talking about us only in relation to sex or men. Most times when I see some corny post about butches on tumblr or twitter or wherever, written by non-butch women, I get so irritated because of how presumptuous it is.

          I am not butch but I totally get why you would feel that way. I'll try to keep an eye out for comments like that in the future; I feel like I have seen a few like that even on this forum.

          I am thinking, maybe it might help to have more "get to know you" kind of posts about butch women, in order to avoid minimizing the conversation down to just sex/men.

          [–]oofreesouloo 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

          We will miss you! Hope you come back some day. Great post, thanks for sharing.

          [–][deleted]  (2 children)


            [–]votkriscan 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

            Ah, sorry for the assumption. But you don't have to leave. Feel free to talk about yourself. Everyone certainly has their own opinions, but this is an accepting place where you can voice your thoughts without worry.

            [–]winterwillow 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

            The reason was never that I actually thought I was a man, or that I believed I can change my sex. It was because I wanted to be free to be myself and to disappear. I wanted to be treated like a normal person, not an abnormal woman.

            This was very insightful, thank you.

            [–]yousaythosethings 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

            Thank you for sharing your perspective. Though I feel the raw pain behind your words, at the same time you are very insightful and eloquent as usual. You have given me a lot to think about.

            [–]RedditHatesLesbians 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

            What IS a butch lesbian? Sorry if this is a dumb question but I'm 16 and only recently awake. What defines a butch, as opposed to a femme, as opposed to a mismatch of both?