Thoughts on the current climate on social media for young lesbians

submitted by Innisfree from self.Lesbians

Recently I watched the new show “I May Destroy You” – a great take on dealing with trauma. There’s a storyline in the show where the main character – Arabella, goes down a social media rabbit hole with terrible consequences. Basically she shares online her story of abuse and gets a lot of support from people. She starts responding to them, they ‘affirm her’, it feels great, she responds more, they message more, until she becomes a sort of activist/influencer almost through no will of her own. All the feedback she gets from followers primes her to see abuse and read ill-intent everywhere, until she almost torpedoes one of her friendships with this toxic drive.

Of course, there’s a wake up call, she snaps out of it, her mental health improves. The reason I bring this up is because I think social media toxicity is an issue that younger lesbians are particularly vulnerable to. Often all we have in terms of support are online spaces. And getting some feedback, any – can be almost addictive.

But, in the current online discourse however you label yourself: lesbian, non-binary, sapphic, people will find a way to spin their entire interaction with you around what they see as your vulnerabilities. Tribes matter, there are rules made up about what a tribe is and who belongs in it every day. I would imagine young lesbians have to be good at navigating that to not find themselves excluded. At an age when the need to belong is strongest, the uncertain ground of online discourse must be at best alienating to them and at worst downright harmful.

So how can we fashion the discussion on this forum to oppose the more toxic strands on outer platforms? Are there topics we should steer clear of?

My own thoughts circle around the importance of complexity: that is talk about the diversity of our lives as lesbians, maybe discuss controversial opinions we hold or how we overcame some bad habits (be they intellectual or otherwise).

Edit: spelling

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[–]VioletRemi 31 insightful - 4 fun31 insightful - 3 fun32 insightful - 4 fun -  (7 children)

That recent situation with TikTok and Facebook, when teens said that it is okay to not love penises as lesbian, and then TRA cancelling them and bringing to tears, showed to me that situation is pretty bad and all this gender ideology is just very homophobic and "pro-penis in everyone's life".

Worst part of this situation, is that when homophobes hated me in my time and were threatening and actually applying violence to me - I always know who are the threat and who are homophobes and idiots. Yet nowadays it is unknown, because those girls were attacked withing the very community that is supposed to be defending her rights, from "LGBTQ+", where word "Lesbian" is included. So it is almost like backstabbing. And because they are so young, they do not know about anything and just thinking that they are wrong, that they are "doing lesbianism wrong", just like I was thinking that there something wrong with me and tried to "fix myself to like men".

Just the same old song. But now with make-up and wigs flavour.

[–]Innisfree[S] 22 insightful - 1 fun22 insightful - 0 fun23 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Unfortunately girls were always targeted for refusing to be a supporter, a carer. And lesbians are more prone to be pressured simply because we are a minority and nobody will come to our defense. So we will have to, yet again, toughen up and stand our ground.

And like you mention these young people are just that - young. Most of them are not in the mindspace of battling activists. Probably all they are used to and all they want to do is have a good time with friends online - share memes and opinions about pop culture or common interests. They don't want to be in a space where they have to be constantly upset at the representatives of the trans community, who they are told is the most vulnerable. They'd feel terrible being on gender critical, for instance, and understandably so.

And this is where the tone and the content of the discourse comes up. I'd love this forum to be the opposite of the negativity on other platforms. Where Instagram and tiktok are about personal brands and impressing your peers, I wish here was about real, down to earth people having honest discussions, where twitter and reddit are filled with mysoginy and wokeness, I wish here was about the diversity and complexity of life and view points, a place where we can dissect an argument and laugh at our own silliness in the same breath. So far, the discussions on this forum have been just like that and that's why I like it. But the question is would young people like it? And should we expect them too join this forum? I think the 'influencer sapphics' wouldnt be caught near here, but the people who most need it, the young lesbians, isolated from their community for one reason or another, will find their place here and will appreciate it.

[–]mangosplums 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I think for this to be true, we need to move from this site to somewhere else. No one wants to come to a site where the rest of the site is full of racists and trumpists and anti-mask people. It really bothers me that some people are ok with staying on this site and come up with excuses why we shouldn’t move.

[–]Innisfree[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You have a point. When i created an account here it really bothered me that i was automatically subscribed to all the weird subs. I had to go through all of them and uncheck. Out of sight out of mind sort of works for me, but probably won't for them.

Have you tried the new Ovarit sub? That's a platform for gender critical women, but we have a dedicated sub there: https://saidit.net/s/Lesbians/comments/5tlz/yes_we_are_on_ovarit/

Would you be interested and do you think it is better than here? I'm gong to DM the mod to join to check it out. As I understand the users from here are slowly trickling there.

Other than that i really don't know anyone who has the means to create a whole new secure platform and maintain it. As i understand it would cost anywhere btw 30 and and a couple of hundred per month. I don't think people would like to pay. Unless a for profit company hosts us, but then we wouldn't be any safer.

[–]CJLez 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yet nowadays it is unknown, because those girls were attacked withing the very community that is supposed to be defending her rights, from "LGBTQ+", where word "Lesbian" is included.

'The calls are coming from inside the house' springs to mind.

[–]mangosplums 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I haven’t heard of this tiktok situation, do you have a link or more info or anything?

[–]VioletRemi 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well, it is happening left and right. Like this: https://saidit.net/s/LGBDropTheT/comments/5v6a/tiktok_lesbian_cancelled_for_saying_its_not/

[–]WildwoodFlower 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

What do you think is the best solution? I can see two options: 1. Stand up for these young lesbians publicly. It might work for two seconds, and then we'll get banned from whatever forum they're on. 2. Contact the young lesbians privately and give them helpful links, including a link to this place.

[–]CJLez 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think we need to be careful with option 2 - a lot of people are tempted to throw bucketloads of statistics and news stories and feminist theories and personal experiences at someone when it'll just end up overwhelming them. A gentle 'I understand how you feel, I felt the same way, we're over here if you want to find someone to talk to' will probably be more effective.

[–]a_blue_bird 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I would imagine young lesbians have to be good at navigating that to not find themselves excluded. At an age when the need to belong is strongest, the uncertain ground of online discourse must be at best alienating to them and at worst downright harmful.

It's always been like this and worse, and much worse. I don't think that a minority of 2-3% of the population should realistically expect being fully accepted and understood by the rest of the people. Especially now that being LGBT is fashionable and a lifestyle, and the overwhelming majority of the LGBT, by whom the rest of us are also judged, aren't even homosexual. You should expect to be on your own, unable to fully relate to the mainstream society, and also unable to fully relate to the ''queers''. It's great if you find a group to belong to, but I don't think that's very likely. It's just the reality of being a small minority. If you feel like you ''must'' belong to something, then focus on hobbies, get into art, literature, history, philosophy, and literally anything other than the average social media group centered around your sexuality. Life is much bigger than that.

[–]Innisfree[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't think that a minority of 2-3% of the population should realistically expect being fully accepted and understood by the rest of the people.

This is a great point. It puts things into perspective. I doubt that back when the Lesbian and Gay Liberation front fought for rights, its members expected to be understood by the majority, they just wanted decent treatment to apply to them too.

You should expect to be on your own, unable to fully relate to the mainstream society, and also unable to fully relate to the ''queers''. If you feel like you ''must'' belong to something, then focus on hobbies

This is the kind of idea and attitude i think would be useful to the challenges the younger generation faces and i hope we keep having it as an ongoing theme in this sub.

[–]florasis 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This thing about not really relating to the majority of people really hit home, and personally, it is also about my personality, not just sexuality. But then again, as you said, you just need to focus on interest other than you specific personality.

[–]writerlylesbian 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I think one good thing that happens in this space is that when we disagree, we are generally disagreeing with IDEAS, not making it personal. We actually construct logical argument to support our position. The problem with the whole Instagram/TikTok culture of making yourself your own personal brand is that then, when someone disagrees with you, they are attacking YOU in a way. If you have turned yourself into a marketable commodity, then you have to protect your brand integrity. That means you can't question, you can't say things that will harm your 'brand' and the people who are following you as a brand. You can't let others question you either, or call your integrity into question. Because then all your followers won't like you any more, and you won't be profitable anymore.

A lot of this is actually the result of bastardising political activism and identities and turning them into capitalist commodities that can be bought and sold. Turns out that's a fucking atrocious idea. Who knew?

[–]Innisfree[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Beautifully summarised.

you can't say things that will harm your 'brand' and the people who are following you as a brand. You can't let others question you either, or call your integrity into question.

For those interested to hear more about the delicate balancing act of maintaining a brand on social media while still questioning and discussing complex issues, I found this interview quite insightful: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TuAd_IAkOl4

bastardising political activism and identities and turning them into capitalist commodities.

Frankly this is my biggest issue with what is going on. Perhaps for another thread/time.

[–]writerlylesbian 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, capitalism co-opting movements (many of which were anti-capitalist or at least critical of capitalism to begin with) is a huge topic all on its own.

[–]reluctant_commenter 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

If you have turned yourself into a marketable commodity, then you have to protect your brand integrity. That means you can't question, you can't say things that will harm your 'brand' and the people who are following you as a brand.

You absolutely nailed it. Speaking as someone in the younger demographic, I have heard so many times people saying "Oh, that's on brand" or "that's my brand" even in casual conversation, among my 18-22 y/o peers. I know that this is true for influencers or people who actively make money off their "brand"-- but this language is so pervasive even socially.

A lot of this is actually the result of bastardising political activism and identities and turning them into capitalist commodities that can be bought and sold. Turns out that's a fucking atrocious idea. Who knew?

Completely agree. I used to think everyone my age was very political, but whenever I talked with them they did not seem to care. It really confused me for a while haha.

when we disagree, we are generally disagreeing with IDEAS, not making it personal.

This has been my experience here so far, and I really appreciate it. While I sometimes read comments that bewilder me, whenever I have engaged with people here they explain their position and try to get across what they meant, without telling me that I do not belong here (which is always a threat when bringing up LGBT topics with people my age, always).

[–]writerlylesbian 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You absolutely nailed it. Speaking as someone in the younger demographic, I have heard so many times people saying "Oh, that's on brand" or "that's my brand" even in casual conversation, among my 18-22 y/o peers. I know that this is true for influencers or people who actively make money off their "brand"-- but this language is so pervasive even socially.

This is so much of what is wrong with contemporary life, imo

[–]piylot 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I think this is an important topic. If you look up characteristics of cults or unhealthy groups, a lot of the most harmful traits come down to enforcing the idea that everybody holds the exact same views within the group and discouraging questioning or expressing doubt. Also an us vs them mentality. I think it would easy for us as a group of people who already feel marginalised, misunderstood, like we need to have our defences up to lean towards being co trolling about what views people in the group are allowed to express, but if we want this group to be as healthy as possible it's going to be something we have to make an active effort against. It's nice to feel like the people on your side believe all the same things as you, but in reality we have a diversity of views here and whether or not I like that, it would be toxic to try and suppress that.

I feel like most of these social activism communities are becoming toxic in the same way organised religion historically has over and over. Back when I first discovered the radical feminist and lesbian feminist online communities, most of us were ex liberal feminist who'd once been enthusiastic about what we were learning and promoting but had become disenchanted with the lack of ability to question things. It would be a shame if the same toxic cancel anyone who's ever made a mistake or expressed an unapproved opinion culture transferred here too.

[–]piylot 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I think in terms of helping people outside the group it's going to be tough when we've already been vilified to them, but its useful to gently question and avoid using any terms that obviously signal we're "TERFs" (lol) and just allowing this to be a safe space or you to be a safe person to express any views they may have to without fear of the mob coming against them.

[–]Innisfree[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Can we give gold on this platform? Anywho, have it.

[–]sunzzy 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

This is the exact reason I stay off social media for the most part, Its nice to have this forum where I can read about others who have similar experiences to me although I try not to read too many posts that talk about negative aspects of being lesbian just because I am still trying to come to terms with my sexuality and I don't need to feel anymore nervous about coming out.

Being at college and feeling different from everyone else definitely sucks so I 100% relate to the feelings of wanting to change myself to belong

[–]Innisfree[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's great you are being selective about your online spaces and habits - that speaks to a certain discipline.

I remember the pressure to be like everyone else. Especially this desire to not have to carry the cognitive load of one sexual orientation or another and all it's implications in your life. People say these feelings go away with time regardless and you sort of settle into yourself. Maybe they are literally displaced by the experiences we accrue, a profession, a job, friends etc. Anywho, you have enough stuff to deal with I'm sure. Hang in there and I hope this place helps you out.

[–]Innisfree[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Also, thank you for sharing your experience.

I try not to read too many posts that talk about negative aspects of being lesbian just because I am still trying to come to terms with my sexuality and I don't need to feel anymore nervous about coming out.

I hope this sub will grow and while it is a space where people come to vent, I suppose it will be/is also a space that provides a glimpse into the full lives that lesbians lead behind those moments of frustration :)