DiscussionHow to support LGB youth who have gender dysphoria

submitted by reluctant_commenter from self.LGBDropTheT

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[–]StillLessons 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Hey all, new to this thread. You'll have to pardon my "invasion" of your space, as I am a straight male, but these questions have been of interest to me for a long time now, given that when I was adolescent (a long time ago now...), I would have been at risk for the trans trend (fortunately for me, it hadn't even been conceived of when I was that age).

The letter that I think gets too little attention and which could play a more significant part of a move toward a stable gender equilibrium is "Q".

The debate has gotten sidetracked into trans vs. cis (which are themselves binary constructs), and this is the loss. For me at least, queer is a more powerful concept, because it really gets at the heart of the issue, which is that in our minds there is no pure male or female. While in our bodies, biology exists and I am a firm believer in giving that objective truth the respect it is due, in our minds, there are infinite shades of behaviors we all (from both sexes, from all sexualities) exhibit. Some behaviors were traditionally associated with one sex or the other, and thus the problem. But "queer" to me gets at that group of people (where I fit as a teen) who have a lot of the behaviors of the opposite sex, but who are not part of that group.

Long story short, we (gay people, straight people, bi people, whatever) need to really be hitting the message that queer is okay. It's alright to be one sex with behaviors that are more common among the other. It doesn't mean we are the other sex. It just means behavior and sex have never been as linked as people (either militant straight or militant trans) make them.

Behaving whatever way you behave (and associating with whomever you want to associate with) is perfect, within the body you are given. You don't need to assault your divinely-provided body to give yourself permission to behave a certain way.

Support Queer. Thoughts?

Thanks in advance for not attacking me, "an invader". ;)

[–]joogabahGay shows the way 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

No way. I don't want to take on a label that means "weirdo", and the Q is already firmly attached to the T.

Masculinity is the world trying to make soldiers out of boys. Femininity is the world trying to make mothers and submissive wives out of girls. They are not innate, and so there are myriad exceptions, standouts and outliers. Rather than making these people feel bad about themselves, acknowledge that they are actually part of an emerging EMANCIPATION from being merely cannon fodder and subordinated baby makers! War and overpopulation have grown to the extent that they are no longer socially necessary, they have negated entirely to the point they threaten all life on the planet! And this is apparently having unconscious impacts on human sexuality and social relating. And idiots are coming up with ignorant theories based on unexamined conventional assumptions of what it means to be a man or a woman. Add a hefty dose of academic postmodernism which questions objectivity itself, and you get institutional legitimization of something absurd and deeply reactionary.

[–]StillLessons 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Interesting. This goes to the more general philosophical problem that has faced humanity forever. We attach meanings to words, and each of us - as an individual - attaches a different emotional weight. Apparently, the word "queer" gives you a strong emotional reaction. I was thinking of it in more of an intellectual descriptive way, with less emotional baggage. This is why the "identity" movement is problematic from the get-go. Every label we attach to anyone, anything, or any idea has this inherent difficulty embedded in it.

[–]joogabahGay shows the way 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Queer is basically the n word for homosexuals. Older gay men are deeply offended by it.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Hey! If you read the sidebar, it actually says that allies are welcome here as well, you don't have to be LGB to discuss. :)

Several people have already responded to you about why we typically reject the term "queer" here, but let me put it to you another way.

Among women (females) and men (males)-- there is a lot of variation in behaviors and appearance. For example, take masculinity. Imagine that each group, females and males, has a Normal distribution curve, like so, with "females" as the bell curve on the left and "males" the bell curve on the right: https://imgur.com/HdLNBAy

If the x-axis is masculinity, then you can clearly see that:

  • The average male (top of the bell curve on the right bell curve) is more masculine than an average woman (top of the bell curve on the left bell curve).

  • There is significant overlap between the two bell curves-- meaning that some women are more masculine than many men and some men are more feminine than many women.

The fact that some men act/appear more feminine than some women, and that some women act/appear more masculine than some men, is a simple fact of nature. Using the word "queer", in the way that you describe it, teaches children that it is NOT NORMAL to be on the masculine side of the bell curve if you're a woman or the feminine side of the bell curve if you're a man. That is extremely damaging and harmful. Full stop.

Furthermore-- "queer" has no definition. It is so vague that it is impossible to assume any meaning if someone tells you they are queer.

You say:

But "queer" to me gets at that group of people (where I fit as a teen) who have a lot of the behaviors of the opposite sex, but who are not part of that group.

But I say: Having a lot of behaviors of the opposite sex is NORMAL. It sounds like you are talking about being "gender-nonconforming" (GNC). The problem here is not that being GNC is bad, or that we shouldn't talk about being GNC (we should! Sounds like you have an interesting perspective of your own to share). The problem is that "queer" does not mean "gender-nonconforming", it literally has no definition.

Does that help it all? I appreciate you sharing your thoughts, by the way. We can only learn from each other if we talk about this stuff.

edit: couple words.

[–]Constantine 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Most of us hate the word "queer" here. It was used as a slur for a long time and has now been taken over by the T wackos, without the permission of LGB people. Anyone who calls themselves "queer" is a surefire way of knowing they're all wrapped up in this nonsense. It's also an overused and ill-defined academic term that's inextricably linked with "critical theory" and all of the worst aspects of academia that are now becoming more mainstream.

Why must we have a special word for our minds not being sexed? That's just called being human. Let LGB just be LGB. Very clearly-defined terms that have nothing to do with "gender" at the end of the day.

edit: word

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Completely agree with this response.

[–]les4leshomonormative 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

You definitely are new here lmao. I feel like there isn't anybody here that would say that "queer" is better than trans vs. cis. It's a slur against LGB people and even though the trans lobby has co-opted it to mean anybody with genderfeels, the first transsexuals to be called queer were almost called queer because they were perceived as homosexuals

I agree with what you're saying to a point. There's not really any such thing as a "male" or "female" brain, just experiences and socializations more common for people with male and female bodies, and sex and behavior/sex and personality aren't intrinsically linked. By their own definitions, trans people have basically made it impossible to be cisgender. But honestly I'd rather lose the cis/trans binary without replacing it with a nonbinary spectrum. We're all still either men or women, we can hit the message that it's alright not to be a sex stereotype without pretending that we're "queer" if we do, we don't need more labels and we especially don't need more labels that are just repurposing the labels we're already annoyed with lol

[–]StillLessons 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Hehehe. Okay. Message received. I have indeed never waded in these waters before, and my ignorance is immediately revealed. I genuinely apologize for entering a field with basically no history and pretending I had some insight. Clearly I was wrong. I should have spent a lot more time lurking and reading actually to learn something rather than shooting my mouth off.

Thank you to those who responded for being civil in demonstrating my lack of understanding in this area. A good reminder to me that more often than not, keeping one's mouth shut is the best policy.

A happy day to all.

[–]les4leshomonormative 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Hey, no worries! I think a lot of us are just defensive of this space and wary of bad-faith visitors lol. Thank you for being respectful in return

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think it’s a good reminder of why it’s important to ask questions and to have spaces where we can ask questions. I generally agree with the response that was given to you (i.e. that if queer is just non-adherence to sex stereotypes, which is what it seems do be, then why have that description if it’s just how all humans are) but I have no problem with you asking the question. If you don’t ask, you don’t learn.

I will also add one more thing to why I can’t stand “queerness” being pushed on us. And this is not to imply that you are pushing it on us. You’re merely asking a question. The media and LGBT orgs are though. Anyway, we are a varied bunch in here. Some of us appear to be more in conformity with gender stereotypes than others, but all of us share the most gender-conforming trait there is: same-sex attraction. So we look and act all different ways and generally want to get rid of the notion that gay is a feeling, style, or political or ideological belief system. Homosexual or bisexual merely describe our pattern of attraction, no more, no less. Other than the inherent consequences to our lives of that same-sex attraction, the rest is just stereotypes. We are the ones who really just want to live our lives in peace. People who tend to double down on labeling themselves “queer” may claim they do, but they generally want the opposite. They want to be celebrated, exalted, regarded as oppressed, seen as special and enlightened, held up as knowers of truth most people don’t have access to because they’re not marginalized enough, etc. There is constant attention-seeking behavior inherent in “queerness.” It’s right there in the name. They don’t want to be seen as ordinary. They want to tear down institutions and build new ones that center them. This is generally the opposite of what we want, which is freedom to be ourselves, not to force anyone else to do, say, or think anything.