DiscussionBeing associated with radical feminism is dragging this movement down.

submitted by Astrid2448 from (self.LGBDropTheT)

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[–]bastetkat 53 insightful - 2 fun53 insightful - 1 fun54 insightful - 2 fun -  (28 children)

Can you give me examples of radfems denying science?

[–][deleted] 25 insightful - 1 fun25 insightful - 0 fun26 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Yes, please do. We’ll wait.

[–]supersmokio6420 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Believing there's no inherent differences between men and women; that all differences in behaviour come from socialisation/misogyny.

[–]SavvyDiogenes 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Yeah that's not true. It's a matter of opinion, and there are people who think that behavioural differences are because of socialisation only, and also some people who are radfem that think that some behavioural differences are innate (for examples, i heard many that argued that men are inherently more violent than women regardless of socialisation - that is an innate behavioural difference that is true amongst all cultures, all countries and all economic statuses).

As for physical differences i NEVER heard any radfem arguing that there aren't physical differences (that's the whole reason of us having a problem with males in our spaces, from bathrooms to sports).

Tldr we're not a hivemind.

[–]supersmokio6420 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Tldr we're not a hivemind.

I didn't mean all radfems think that, some do though. Men being more violent than women isn't even just a human thing, in just about all animals the dudes are bigger and more insane... You can walk through a field of cows no bother, but as soon as a bull's in there you better watch out.

[–]SavvyDiogenes 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Did I say that this trait only applies to human males? I didn't. But considering that the current issues discussed in this sub are reserved only to the human population, i neglected mentioning that the increased tendencies towards violence are also found in other male animal species.

[–]reluctant_commenter 20 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 0 fun21 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Or examples from LGBdroptheT. I have brought up evidence before to people who weren't aware of it and if they were wrong, they admit it, which is refreshing.

[–]GConly 7 insightful - 4 fun7 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 4 fun -  (21 children)

Can you give me examples of radfems denying science?

I can.

So the overwhelming majority of researchers looking at sexual differentiation in the human brain will tell you that there is a difference, and you can affect adult behaviour and sexual orientation with prenatal hormones.

The radfems post the same paper by Daphne Joel on a loop (she claims there are virtually no differences) even though multiple neuroscientists have written strong critiques of it, pointing out that you can spot the sex of someone from a brain scan about 95% of the time. Where you can't, it's almost always because the person is gay.

So.. this same crappy and debunked paper is their some source of 'no such thing as brain sex', it gets endlessly recycled and they ignore the thousands, and I'm not exaggerating, of papers and neuroscientists that have the opposite opinion. We've known since the fifties that prenatal testosterone affects adult aggression and play behaviour in mammals. We even know that giving it to female embryos at different times can give you a lesbian or tomboy monkey.

If you don't tow the line on this, sooner or later they will block you.

The reason they stick to it is that they are heavily invested in the Marxist viewpoint that all inequality is caused by environment and discrimination. They are heavily anti capitalist and pro socialist.

If they accept that average man and woman have different levels of aggression, interest in STEM, etc, they lose their basis to claim that that income and outcome differences are caused by oppression. Bang goes their 'we are oppressed' leverage. They'd lose the victim card.

It makes them look like a complete bunch of muppets to anyone who studies the subject.

[–][deleted] 9 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

Also the cases of kids who received cross-sex surgery and were raised as the opposite sex, then exhibiting characteristics of their actual sex or wanting to change back to their actual sex. Or young boys who exhibit feminine characteristics even where their parents try to socialise them into being masculine or they get teased for it from their peers.

I'd just add (before you get crucified by GC types) that the differences you describe are more of a bell-curve rather a static representation. Also to throw a curveball in there, apparently women who have ASD have brains that are closer to men's brains than women's (also ASD brains are more different to neurotypical brains than men's are from women's). Not to say that there is any difference though, because there is.

The reason they stick to it is that they are heavily invested in the Marxist viewpoint that all inequality is caused by environment and discrimination. They are heavily anti capitalist and pro socialist.

Yeah this is exactly it. IMO feminist would do way better to acknowledge that inequality is influenced by environment and discrimination but those things aren't everything.

It's a shame because feminist analysis can be really insightful, but the only people using it and the community as so strongly influenced by GC quack and radical feminism that oversteps itself.

[–]MezozoicGayoldschool gay 8 insightful - 4 fun8 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

There not brain difference or "brain closer to male or female", there reactions in brains on different situations are similar. Differences not in structure, but in wiring and how it reacts on stimuluses. Female and male brains are mostly identical in their structure and they are different only by parts that are there to control producing and levels of different hormones to have correct body development and body cycles (and transgender/transsexual people are lacking them), plus they are slightly different in size because there more such parts in female brain (as female hormonal levels are much more complex, especially during pregnancy, and there three main hormones, while males have only one), however, grey matter level is the same on average, as female brain is more curvy to fit the difference.

Gay man can be spotted by brain scan as well, and it is same here as well - brain is the same as straight man have, but reactions are very different on same stimulas.

[–]reluctant_commenter 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'd just add (before you get crucified by GC types) that the differences you describe are more of a bell-curve rather a static representation.

Yup, good to call out. And, if I recall correctly-- part of why academics were arguing about this stuff so long, is because some were like "Look at these bell curves! They have so much overlap! There are no gender differences!" and others were like "Uhh, look at the ends of the bell curves-- out of the most aggressive people, 9/10 were men, so there are tons of gender differences" (I just made that number up as an example).

The way the data are presented, is part of what led to these misconceptions in the first place.

[–]GConly 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Also to throw a curveball in there, apparently women who have ASD have brains that are closer to men's brains than women's

Yeah, I'm one. Asperger's runs in my family. I also have PCOS, so I'm kind of an all round testosterone fiend.

kids who received cross sex surgery

Cloacal extrophy. If you are familiar with the papers on it, the older the boys get, the more likely they are to claim a male identity. A lot if the juvenile studies in them are in pretty young kids.

Dave Reimer case too. Money was a monster.

You might be interested to know about the guevedoces. They are male infants that have a juvenile inability to convert testosterone into DHT, so their male genitalia don't appear until puberty. Normal male testosterone exposure in the brain.

They look exactly like little girls, even the parents think they are girls and they raise them as girls. They almost all get spotted as boys before puberty because of their rough and tough play, male playmates etc. They often insist on being treated as boys quite early. Live as normal male adults.

Basically they are solid proof that it's innate.

[–]reluctant_commenter 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

'no such thing as brain sex',

You are correct, this statement is false. I've read some of the literature on this myself. I did not know that radfems claimed otherwise; that is.. fascinating, to say the least.

I am more mixed on this:

they accept that average man and woman have different levels of aggression, interest in STEM, etc

Aggression, yes. Testosterone is just one factor in the aggression difference, but of the papers I have seen, there does seem to be a biological basis for it. Interest in STEM-- that is definitely up for debate still in the literature (unless I missed a paper that came out quite recently).

Bang goes their 'we are oppressed' leverage. They'd lose the victim card.

I mean, women are oppressed in a ton of ways-- that is not mutually exclusive with the facts you observed. However, if radfems make false scientific claims that is both a shame and unnecessary.

edit: couple words for organization

[–]MezozoicGayoldschool gay 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

GC claims that there no brain sex either. And GC are the ones who are most often called as "TERFs", and LGBDropTheT if associated with anything - it is with TERFs, not with actual extreme radical feminism or extreme anything else.

there does seem to be a biological basis for it

Testosterone is biological too, tho.

[–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Testosterone is biological too, tho.

Yes, but what I mean is-- testosterone is not the only cause of the difference in average aggressiveness between men and woman. I just mention that because some people treat it like this wonder drug that explains all gender differences. And that is just not true, even though it is an important factor. Several other hormones are also very influential, and other stuff as well. (Sorry it's been months since I looked at this subject.)

[–]MezozoicGayoldschool gay 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Well, just exposure to testosterone during birth and puberty are changing body and everything pretty strongly.

If you mean about transwomen saying about their brains are changed by estrogene, then it is just not actually true. They are mostly acting differently because of lack of testosterone (and it has anti-depressant properties), and their body changes. As far as I am aware, hormones that are affecting brains of women are mostly progesterones (and it is main female hormone, analogue of testosterone, while estrogenes are mostly only about looks and few other things), and they are sedatives as well (that is why when their level is lowering during menstruation, woman can be more angry, as she is feeling uncomfortable, and she is more sensitive with lack of regular sedative hormones). However, transwomen are not taking progesterones at all, and even if they did - their brains are lacking "extra parts" that are responsible for women hormonal levels and they have isntead ones that are responsible for men hormonal levels, so it will not affect their brains much.

[–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Nah I did not mean estrogen, I was thinking of progesterone.

However, transwomen are not taking progesterones at all

That's true, I never thought about that before. I wonder why. Then again, we are probably spending more time thinking about it than the doctors who prescribe these hormones, unfortunately...

I might dig around later and see if I can find something but I thought there were other non-hormone sources (or not directly from hormone sources). Have to take off for now though.

[–]MezozoicGayoldschool gay 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I wonder why.

I think it is because it makes no visual difference in looks. So it is useles or maybe even harmful.

While testosterone is all of the male hormones combined in one. That is why it is much worse for women's body, than estrogen for men's body.

And as far as I know there were actually researches about progesterones, but they were during "oldschool transsexuals era" and not nowadays.

[–]weakfantasy 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Daphne Joel is not nearly the only neuroscientist that criticizes stereotypical ideas about brain sex. The very black and white, women are from venus and men are from mars vision of male/female brains has been even more strongly critiqued in the last decades with the discovery that many areas of the brain are not sexually dimorphic. I think you are also misrepresenting that stance, which is that radfems and those neuroscientists don't deny sex differences, but the way that they are grossly distorted in popular culture, from the 1800s where they found women's brains to be lighter and therefore it was decided it made them inferior, to the point that men think they have female brains if they have traits associated with women. Some good reading : https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0896627311010439 https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/10/151029185544.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/01/170117135943.htm https://www.haaretz.com/.premium-male-vs-female-brains-1.5326598 https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/talking-back/is-the-brain-gendereda-q-a-with-harvard-s-catherine-dulac/

[–]MezozoicGayoldschool gay 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Whole male/female brain idea is the basis of current gender ideology. While oldschool transsexuals had no deal with it at all.

[–]reluctant_commenter 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

which is that radfems and those neuroscientists don't deny sex differences,

I don't know about radfems, but neuroscientists and gender psychology researchers definitely used to.

The articles you listed are quite recent. I'm glad things are moving more in a direction of nuance, seems like it's sorely needed. I'll take a look.

[–]lairacunda 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Cordelia Fine wrote a really good book on this. My takeaway was that brains have plasticity and are shaped by the person's experiences, thoughts, emotions, etc. But these are highly gendered experiences, thoughts, emotions, etc., because the people having them are in sexed bodies whose experiences of life are different. So it's not about the denial of science, it's about the nuances that people invested in pink and blue brains won't allow for. For example, out of Fine's book, Delusions of Gender, women do just as well and even better in math when they go to all-female schools, take tests in all-female environments, when the tester does not prime them for failure by remarking that males do better on that test. That's the interesting backdrop to STEM which is not universally male-dominated. Nope, in some countries there are more women than men in the sciences, just like in India construction is a female occupation.

[–]Astrid2448[S] 5 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 4 fun -  (4 children)

As the OP, yes this is what I was getting at.

Radfems are wrong that there is absolutely no difference. But you are also taking it too far in a way that also shows a lack of understanding. Both the idea that there are clear male and female brains and the idea that they are both totally moldeable with no noticeable differences are false. It’s in between: there are some trends that are common to both and upbringing is a factor. Things like hormones are also influential. Discrimination does exist and changes things as well - they aren’t just making up the idea that women have been treated like property throughout most of history, and that many sexist ideas are alive today. The brain is plastic but it isn’t play-doh, essentially. The variation is large and it is not a defining sex characteristic.

You are exaggerating what those researchers are saying, if unintentionally.

Frankly as someone who grew up surrounded by healthcare, I’m really sick of watching science be weaponized by both sides. Not limited to the trans debate

[–]BiHorror 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

I mean if there is a sexed brain, then people shouldn't be surprised when the far right starts bringing up IQs and race related stuff due to the isolation and genetic/phenotypes of some cultures. Bring back partially race science, and start testing between races.

(And before anyone comes at me, I'm not white, and this is also one of the things people who don't believe there is a difference between the brains 100% also spew).

[–]Astrid2448[S] 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

I’m also not white before someone comes at me as well lol. Though I get sick of having to use this to be able to talk.

Obviously those are the wrong things to do. It’s horseshoe theory in action tbh. That’s a big problem for me when it comes to weaponizing science in these political debates, because no one is stating “sexed brains” plainly, they usually follow it with a worldview that promotes sexism based on misinterpretations or exaggerations of the data to suit their narrative. Just as it would be with race.

The truth is that there are differences. From a purely scientific standpoint, I feel comfortable saying that odds are there are differences in averages between pipulations (same as there are with things like height based on race) because I can separate average data from individual reality. However, the issue like you said is that many people can’t. And I can understand why, because if you’re not regularly in these circles, when you hear data about this you’re going to jump to conclusions or try to relate it to your own life. In that way it feeds bigotry, as frankly has already been seen in this thread with the implication that women aren’t in certain fields, etc. because their brain limits them from it. It Is hard for people to be objective given data without the background to interpret it properly.

Hell, even many people who should know better are plagued by this. In particular, for quite a while the hard sciences have been harassed by psychology and sociology researchers who publish papers reinterpreting biology in whatever image they’d like. Then the woke people cite those articles as evidence when I’d almost call them opinion pieces.

Hence why I would like to see people stop pulling the “BUT SCIENCE AGREES WITH ME!” to try to win political debates in these areas.

[–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

Both the idea that there are clear male and female brains and the idea that they are both totally moldeable with no noticeable differences are false. It’s in between

Yes, but-- isn't this obvious? I guess maybe it is worth observing anyway. Maybe I am being too blasé and some people are making this mistake. But these are group averages when we talk about a "male brain" or "female brain", or whatever. Consistent patterns of average differences, not set-in-stone difference.

[–]Astrid2448[S] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

You would think so but this isn’t my experience with radfems or with TRAs. But again, that’s because they’re the far left. I’m sure a normal liberal, centrist or democrat would agree.

[–]TovasshiDefinitely a house plant 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Brain sex is a lie.

Brains are plastic. The last mass review of all the brain scan research on sex and transexualism found that none of the studies could be replicated and often contradicted to eachother. They concluded the brain differences were based on common lived experiences/socialization. A man living in Afghanistan will have similar brain scan as other men in Afganistan, but they won't be similar to men living in Japan.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5953012/

[–]BiHorror 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Pretty sure I'm seeing more pop up of criticism against the "sexed" brains tho, and not just by radfems either. Or at least, I don't think they are. I have seen some intersex people fighting against it. They use Gina Rippon, and another woman as an example. Especially when it comes to cultures, and the idea: if there is a difference between "female" and "male" brains (not caused by the environment and how children are raised by sex), then what's stopping us from saying the same from other things like race? Since there is genetic and phenotypes differences due to ancestry from environment adaption (and some cultures being isolated for so long).