DiscussionBeing associated with radical feminism is dragging this movement down.

submitted by Astrid2448 from (self.LGBDropTheT)

I’ve spent over a year in both circles. No matter how much they hate each other, they‘re almost entirely the same. They are both ideologically obsessed, think they’re morally superior, deny science when convenient, and agree on almost every topic. But they can’t tolerate disagreement, so they’re essentially going to war over the few differences they have. Libfems are censoring because they are winning this war, but radfems would do the same in their place.

I think being involved with either strain of the extreme left doesn’t help our case. People aren’t going to go from criticizing the stupidity of one extreme branch of feminism to the other one. I can’t even imagine how many people must’ve come to places like this and left when they realized how much of the same bullshit is still around.

Most people want a return to normalcy and I feel like we really need the support of the average gay person or centrist. Or even a mix of everyone. I don’t think most gay (or trans!) people want to be caught in the middle of a war between these two groups of people that isn’t even really about us, but about two groups of hardcore leftists trying to prove a point.

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[–]PassionateIntensity 70 insightful - 5 fun70 insightful - 4 fun71 insightful - 5 fun -  (53 children)

I trust radfems to fight for lesbians before gay men will do it.

[–]materialrealityplz 54 insightful - 4 fun54 insightful - 3 fun55 insightful - 4 fun -  (51 children)

Yeah, indeed. I think radfems are helping women and the movement more than anything - other people are staying silent.

If OP doesn't want radfems to have such loud a voice in this, then more gay men, and more men in general need to speak the fuck up. (Most women speaking up about it get labelled 'radfem' (as in TERF) but are really just gender critical...)

[–]Astrid2448[S] 16 insightful - 10 fun16 insightful - 9 fun17 insightful - 10 fun -  (50 children)

Many gay men have been turned away from this movement because of radical feminists treating them poorly. I know because I know several of them. This was also a common topic on reddit, gay and bi men who agree but don’t feel comfortable around women who are often frankly misandrists and social justice warriors. The same happens with many straight people and even women in general who arrive to support and then realize that there are still a lot of extremists here. It was part of the reason I made this post

[–][deleted] 46 insightful - 4 fun46 insightful - 3 fun47 insightful - 4 fun -  (38 children)

Most gay men I have ever met have their own stuff to worry about and have not spent a lot of time defending lesbians because lesbians have historically been able to keep their own gate until queer theory replaced women’s studies with gender studies. So I don’t think it’s the mean lesbians being mean, because we can differentiate between males enough to tell which ones are assholes. If men want to interpret women having criticisms as “all men are bad” then it’s hard to convince anyone otherwise, and most of us are not super worried about that because women. You’re basically suggesting that getting rid of terfs will help us not be called terfs. Which is not actually true. Most of us are not even terfs, including terfs.

[–]Astrid2448[S] 10 insightful - 9 fun10 insightful - 8 fun11 insightful - 9 fun -  (12 children)

It’s not the lesbians being mean, it’s the radical feminists being misandrist social justice warriors who are often just as arrogant and authoritarian as TRAs. And yes, if you treat people like trash or act like a moron they’ll be less inclined to support you.

[–]LiterallyawomanTERF IRL 21 insightful - 3 fun21 insightful - 2 fun22 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

These are all just your opinions you can’t present them as a fact to be debated over. Someone asked you earlier for evidence of the radfem anti-science agenda you stated exists, want to provide that?

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 3 fun -  (5 children)

Swing on over to GC and watch all of the horrible, mostly not radfem, users in action saying hideous things to people when many are straight and homophobic, at the very least. Which category do they fit into? Or are we just mad at radfems?

[–]reluctant_commenter 5 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 4 fun -  (4 children)

I am a little confused. You seem to be implying that GC != radfem. Elsewhere in this thread you said that TRAs have redefined "TERF" to mean "anyone against TRAs". Yet, when I lurk on GC sometimes, it seems like people are using "GC" and "radfem" interchangeably.

[–][deleted] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I am implying gc and radfem are NOT the same thing. Some women are radfem on gender critical, but gender critical is it’s own thing since lots of them are not radfems. Radfems are critical of gender, but gender critical ppl are not all radfems.

I said check out GC if you want to see some problem behaviour instead of blaming radical feminism. Lots of GCs are homophobes.

But the distinction doesn’t matter to TRAs because they think we are ALL “trans exclusionary radical feminists” no matter what any of us believe. That’s what I am saying.

And even on here most users don’t seem to know the difference between gender critical and radical feminism

[–]VioletRemiCat, homosexual one 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Lots of GCs are homophobes

GC feminism is still mostly led by lesbians. It is just that now even straight non-feminists or men's rights advocating men are joining GC as well, because of the fact that TRA are THAT much annoying and problematic to literally every person who has glimpses of the logic.

And of course with "normal people" there comes homophobia.

[–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Gotcha, makes sense.

And even on here most users don’t seem to know the difference between gender critical and radical feminism

Well, to be fair, I'm not sure if all the GC people do either, since I have seen some of them use the terms interchangeably.

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      [–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 10 insightful - 4 fun10 insightful - 3 fun11 insightful - 4 fun -  (24 children)

      In the beginning I did notice some of the gc crowd having an “all men attitude” and even outright homophobia implying gay men were all whores lol. I don’t think it was from gc lesbians but the hetero gc who has a strong presence there. They defended lb as fellow women under attack but gb men were still “the patriarchy” it did drive off a few gay men in the beginning.

      [–][deleted] 18 insightful - 6 fun18 insightful - 5 fun19 insightful - 6 fun -  (14 children)

      Gc people tend to be homophobic bigots OFTEN, ive found. I unsubbed because they were suggesting firing someone over being trans at all. Just as bad as the gc on reddit, who were just as bad as TRAs. But that doesn’t mean lesbians who are radfems are all extremist trash and we should distance from them. If we had paid more attention to them years ago it’s unlikely we would have gotten so far down the TRA rabbit hole.

      Also, any woman who defends women against partriarchy, or even uses the word, has the “all men attitude” to people who don’t want to actually address any issues. It’s as if a woman failing to provide a “not all men” disclaimer before every statement with “men” in it has an “all men attitude.” No one means “all” of anyone, that’s not logical and I doubt the speakers feel it’s every man

      [–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 11 insightful - 5 fun11 insightful - 4 fun12 insightful - 5 fun -  (10 children)

      I read gc sub before finding lgbdropthet and there were definitely some "all men" attitudes from SOME of them. At dropthet, there was an article about gay men with body issues and getting botched cosmetic surgeries, and top comment was some radfem gloating about how it was men getting a taste of their own medicine (my words, but that was the gist of it.) another one was me asking a question about why something was a certain wayand i got a one word response. MEN. Apparently it was all our doing lol

      Again let me say that I don't think all gc lesbians are extremists and of course I recognize and share elements of their beliefs (gender stereotypes need to go). I'm not saying gc L need to go, they are lgb. Just like the conservatives here., for example. But we shouldn't assume there is only one belief system that will solve the TRA problem.

      [–][deleted] 7 insightful - 4 fun7 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

      The people in GC are definitely pretty horrid, a lot. If they are calling themselves radfems too I hope they know what that means.

      And that cosmetic surgery comment to a gay man is pretty damn lame. Gay men basically suffer similar beauty and youth standards to women. The expectations are very high. I imagine whoever posted comment that was straight, because AS USUAL, they are often homophobes in that sub, or know so little about the LGB community they don’t know the types of pressures gay dudes are under. I think cosmetic surgery is a bullshit waste of time for the most part, and money, but that doesn’t mean I don’t get why people do it.

      Some people are assholes and want a one-word solution for all of these issues. GC and radfem are separate groups, but agree about gender feels and gender roles being dumb. And you’re right, some are extremists and some are not. We should be trying to work together with the reasonable ones instead of sending out eviction notices or we are not better than TRAs

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          [–]just_lesbian_things 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

          I'm probably one of the "all men attitude" types, but I don't think gay men are whores. See, when some ass comes to GC and shill family values and other sexist, homophobic, victim blaming, white supremacy dog whistle shit and nobody wants to call it out, then I'm going to. But you know, if you're not into that stuff either, feel free to step in at any time. Basically, if you don't want to take out the trash, then I will do it, but you don't get to complain about how I do it.

          [–]reluctant_commenter 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (7 children)

          Thanks for sharing, the context is helpful. What do you think makes sense to do about this? We can't really exclude LGB who are radfem from s/LGBdroptheT (or at least, I think that would be unfair and ridiculous). We could try to be more clear about our rules and that misandry is not allowed.

          [–]lairacunda 14 insightful - 4 fun14 insightful - 3 fun15 insightful - 4 fun -  (4 children)

          You do realize that there have been radical feminists who have been subscribed to LGBDroptheT from its inception and who have contributed to it significantly. The fact that you want to exclude us is evidence of your discomfort with women batting for their own team.

          I would have been impressed if you had proposed making a rule that misogyny isn't allowed as well. I suppose that doesn't bother you (if you even notice it). It sounds like even though you "can't really exclude LGB who are radfem", you sure would like to. Maybe you can start a new sub called GBDroptheT since you've already dropped the L.

          [–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 9 insightful - 4 fun9 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

          I don't think they followed us here... everyone here is getting along. I don't think we need to exclude radfems but people here have to realize we share views all over the political/ideological spectrum. Good debates like this are worthwhile but over there I knew when i was going to be downvoted for a specific post and which group was doing it lol. I guess if someone is just being a bogot they can be reported.

          [–]reluctant_commenter 13 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

          I don't think they followed us here... everyone here is getting along.

          I agree that it seems like everyone is getting along. Which is why I was confused by this post, because it seems to imply GC are stifling people here. Fortunately, as you and others have pointed out, the lack of downvoting makes it easier to see a diversity of views that might otherwise be silenced.

          I don't think we need to exclude radfems but people here have to realize we share views all over the political/ideological spectrum.

          I agree. What I am a little confused by is this:

          I don't think they followed us here...

          In case it is not obvious, a sizable portion of this subreddit are members of GenderCritical. But they are not causing problems here, as far as I can tell. So, what is the problem? (I am asking OP, not you, to be clear, I realize you didn't make this post.)

          [–]reluctant_commenter 14 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

          Okay, this is an actionable item and perhaps a reasonable criticism to level against radical feminists.

          But, you are posting in s/LGBDroptheT not GenderCritical. Unless I am much mistaken (gay/bi men feel free to chime in), people here in this sub are pretty friendly towards men, right? If the GC people are rude towards men, they don't seem to be doing it here, that I can tell.

          What can we do here in this sub to improve in this issue? I am interested in implementing positive change.

          [–]lairacunda 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

          You're not going to get a reply because u/Astrid2448 is here to rant about radical feminism being 'mean' and not centering gay men. This is a shitpost.

          [–][deleted] 9 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

          People invoke “mean dyke” (re: mean radfem) as a way to guilt lesbians into lowering boundaries because it’s a lesbian stereotype that they are happy to believe applies to all of us. It’s the Trojan Horse that let all the non-lesbians in to begin with so it’s pretty ironic that we have been booted out of the community and now someone wants us to be “nicer” to males, as if being more “inclusive” was not the PROBLEM in the first damn place. How do they think every lesbian community ended up full of non-lesbians? Magical “fluidity”? Lol

          Seeing another whole group of lesbian feminists condemned for being unpopular because people are not paying attention to who is who is maddening to me. We can disagree with women who are radfems and poli lez and whatever without completely booting the only lesbians who are on our side (for the most part) from the entire fight. Lol

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            [–]ThisSiteIsUnusable 8 insightful - 8 fun8 insightful - 7 fun9 insightful - 8 fun -  (2 children)

            Sure thing. They'd help, but the bitches and dykes are just too mean.

            [–][deleted] 21 insightful - 8 fun21 insightful - 7 fun22 insightful - 8 fun -  (0 children)

            So mean. Such bitches. Such dykes. As if cultivating a literal spine isn’t a prerequisite to being a homosexual.

            [–]reluctant_commenter 7 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

            Who said that though..? I mean, I know that's a stereotype but I see a lot of gay/bi men in here contributing thoughtfully. This one poster doesn't speak for all gay men.. and she's not even a man lol.

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              [–]just_lesbian_things 19 insightful - 3 fun19 insightful - 2 fun20 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

              Because radfems have gone to bat for lesbians way more than gay men have. The radfem sub got banned along side the lesbian sub on Reddit. Gay subs barely said anything about it besides worry over how the new policies will affect them.

              [–]bastetkat 53 insightful - 2 fun53 insightful - 1 fun54 insightful - 2 fun -  (28 children)

              Can you give me examples of radfems denying science?

              [–][deleted] 25 insightful - 1 fun25 insightful - 0 fun26 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

              Yes, please do. We’ll wait.

              [–]reluctant_commenter 20 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 0 fun21 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

              Or examples from LGBdroptheT. I have brought up evidence before to people who weren't aware of it and if they were wrong, they admit it, which is refreshing.

              [–]GConly 7 insightful - 4 fun7 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 4 fun -  (21 children)

              Can you give me examples of radfems denying science?

              I can.

              So the overwhelming majority of researchers looking at sexual differentiation in the human brain will tell you that there is a difference, and you can affect adult behaviour and sexual orientation with prenatal hormones.

              The radfems post the same paper by Daphne Joel on a loop (she claims there are virtually no differences) even though multiple neuroscientists have written strong critiques of it, pointing out that you can spot the sex of someone from a brain scan about 95% of the time. Where you can't, it's almost always because the person is gay.

              So.. this same crappy and debunked paper is their some source of 'no such thing as brain sex', it gets endlessly recycled and they ignore the thousands, and I'm not exaggerating, of papers and neuroscientists that have the opposite opinion. We've known since the fifties that prenatal testosterone affects adult aggression and play behaviour in mammals. We even know that giving it to female embryos at different times can give you a lesbian or tomboy monkey.

              If you don't tow the line on this, sooner or later they will block you.

              The reason they stick to it is that they are heavily invested in the Marxist viewpoint that all inequality is caused by environment and discrimination. They are heavily anti capitalist and pro socialist.

              If they accept that average man and woman have different levels of aggression, interest in STEM, etc, they lose their basis to claim that that income and outcome differences are caused by oppression. Bang goes their 'we are oppressed' leverage. They'd lose the victim card.

              It makes them look like a complete bunch of muppets to anyone who studies the subject.

              [–][deleted] 9 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

              Also the cases of kids who received cross-sex surgery and were raised as the opposite sex, then exhibiting characteristics of their actual sex or wanting to change back to their actual sex. Or young boys who exhibit feminine characteristics even where their parents try to socialise them into being masculine or they get teased for it from their peers.

              I'd just add (before you get crucified by GC types) that the differences you describe are more of a bell-curve rather a static representation. Also to throw a curveball in there, apparently women who have ASD have brains that are closer to men's brains than women's (also ASD brains are more different to neurotypical brains than men's are from women's). Not to say that there is any difference though, because there is.

              The reason they stick to it is that they are heavily invested in the Marxist viewpoint that all inequality is caused by environment and discrimination. They are heavily anti capitalist and pro socialist.

              Yeah this is exactly it. IMO feminist would do way better to acknowledge that inequality is influenced by environment and discrimination but those things aren't everything.

              It's a shame because feminist analysis can be really insightful, but the only people using it and the community as so strongly influenced by GC quack and radical feminism that oversteps itself.

              [–]MezozoicGayoldschool gay 8 insightful - 4 fun8 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

              There not brain difference or "brain closer to male or female", there reactions in brains on different situations are similar. Differences not in structure, but in wiring and how it reacts on stimuluses. Female and male brains are mostly identical in their structure and they are different only by parts that are there to control producing and levels of different hormones to have correct body development and body cycles (and transgender/transsexual people are lacking them), plus they are slightly different in size because there more such parts in female brain (as female hormonal levels are much more complex, especially during pregnancy, and there three main hormones, while males have only one), however, grey matter level is the same on average, as female brain is more curvy to fit the difference.

              Gay man can be spotted by brain scan as well, and it is same here as well - brain is the same as straight man have, but reactions are very different on same stimulas.

              [–]reluctant_commenter 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

              I'd just add (before you get crucified by GC types) that the differences you describe are more of a bell-curve rather a static representation.

              Yup, good to call out. And, if I recall correctly-- part of why academics were arguing about this stuff so long, is because some were like "Look at these bell curves! They have so much overlap! There are no gender differences!" and others were like "Uhh, look at the ends of the bell curves-- out of the most aggressive people, 9/10 were men, so there are tons of gender differences" (I just made that number up as an example).

              The way the data are presented, is part of what led to these misconceptions in the first place.

              [–]GConly 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

              Also to throw a curveball in there, apparently women who have ASD have brains that are closer to men's brains than women's

              Yeah, I'm one. Asperger's runs in my family. I also have PCOS, so I'm kind of an all round testosterone fiend.

              kids who received cross sex surgery

              Cloacal extrophy. If you are familiar with the papers on it, the older the boys get, the more likely they are to claim a male identity. A lot if the juvenile studies in them are in pretty young kids.

              Dave Reimer case too. Money was a monster.

              You might be interested to know about the guevedoces. They are male infants that have a juvenile inability to convert testosterone into DHT, so their male genitalia don't appear until puberty. Normal male testosterone exposure in the brain.

              They look exactly like little girls, even the parents think they are girls and they raise them as girls. They almost all get spotted as boys before puberty because of their rough and tough play, male playmates etc. They often insist on being treated as boys quite early. Live as normal male adults.

              Basically they are solid proof that it's innate.

              [–]reluctant_commenter 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

              'no such thing as brain sex',

              You are correct, this statement is false. I've read some of the literature on this myself. I did not know that radfems claimed otherwise; that is.. fascinating, to say the least.

              I am more mixed on this:

              they accept that average man and woman have different levels of aggression, interest in STEM, etc

              Aggression, yes. Testosterone is just one factor in the aggression difference, but of the papers I have seen, there does seem to be a biological basis for it. Interest in STEM-- that is definitely up for debate still in the literature (unless I missed a paper that came out quite recently).

              Bang goes their 'we are oppressed' leverage. They'd lose the victim card.

              I mean, women are oppressed in a ton of ways-- that is not mutually exclusive with the facts you observed. However, if radfems make false scientific claims that is both a shame and unnecessary.

              edit: couple words for organization

              [–]MezozoicGayoldschool gay 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

              GC claims that there no brain sex either. And GC are the ones who are most often called as "TERFs", and LGBDropTheT if associated with anything - it is with TERFs, not with actual extreme radical feminism or extreme anything else.

              there does seem to be a biological basis for it

              Testosterone is biological too, tho.

              [–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

              Testosterone is biological too, tho.

              Yes, but what I mean is-- testosterone is not the only cause of the difference in average aggressiveness between men and woman. I just mention that because some people treat it like this wonder drug that explains all gender differences. And that is just not true, even though it is an important factor. Several other hormones are also very influential, and other stuff as well. (Sorry it's been months since I looked at this subject.)

              [–]weakfantasy 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

              Daphne Joel is not nearly the only neuroscientist that criticizes stereotypical ideas about brain sex. The very black and white, women are from venus and men are from mars vision of male/female brains has been even more strongly critiqued in the last decades with the discovery that many areas of the brain are not sexually dimorphic. I think you are also misrepresenting that stance, which is that radfems and those neuroscientists don't deny sex differences, but the way that they are grossly distorted in popular culture, from the 1800s where they found women's brains to be lighter and therefore it was decided it made them inferior, to the point that men think they have female brains if they have traits associated with women. Some good reading : https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0896627311010439 https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/10/151029185544.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/01/170117135943.htm https://www.haaretz.com/.premium-male-vs-female-brains-1.5326598 https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/talking-back/is-the-brain-gendereda-q-a-with-harvard-s-catherine-dulac/

              [–]MezozoicGayoldschool gay 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

              Whole male/female brain idea is the basis of current gender ideology. While oldschool transsexuals had no deal with it at all.

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                [–]lairacunda 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                Cordelia Fine wrote a really good book on this. My takeaway was that brains have plasticity and are shaped by the person's experiences, thoughts, emotions, etc. But these are highly gendered experiences, thoughts, emotions, etc., because the people having them are in sexed bodies whose experiences of life are different. So it's not about the denial of science, it's about the nuances that people invested in pink and blue brains won't allow for. For example, out of Fine's book, Delusions of Gender, women do just as well and even better in math when they go to all-female schools, take tests in all-female environments, when the tester does not prime them for failure by remarking that males do better on that test. That's the interesting backdrop to STEM which is not universally male-dominated. Nope, in some countries there are more women than men in the sciences, just like in India construction is a female occupation.

                [–]Astrid2448[S] 5 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 4 fun -  (4 children)

                As the OP, yes this is what I was getting at.

                Radfems are wrong that there is absolutely no difference. But you are also taking it too far in a way that also shows a lack of understanding. Both the idea that there are clear male and female brains and the idea that they are both totally moldeable with no noticeable differences are false. It’s in between: there are some trends that are common to both and upbringing is a factor. Things like hormones are also influential. Discrimination does exist and changes things as well - they aren’t just making up the idea that women have been treated like property throughout most of history, and that many sexist ideas are alive today. The brain is plastic but it isn’t play-doh, essentially. The variation is large and it is not a defining sex characteristic.

                You are exaggerating what those researchers are saying, if unintentionally.

                Frankly as someone who grew up surrounded by healthcare, I’m really sick of watching science be weaponized by both sides. Not limited to the trans debate

                [–]TovasshiDefinitely a house plant 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

                Brain sex is a lie.

                Brains are plastic. The last mass review of all the brain scan research on sex and transexualism found that none of the studies could be replicated and often contradicted to eachother. They concluded the brain differences were based on common lived experiences/socialization. A man living in Afghanistan will have similar brain scan as other men in Afganistan, but they won't be similar to men living in Japan.

                https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5953012/

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                  [–]materialrealityplz 41 insightful - 3 fun41 insightful - 2 fun42 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

                  Most people in radfem groups aren't even radical feminists, they just found their way there because of being gender critical, because of reaching peak trans.

                  Most things discussed in those circles are male violence and sexual abuse, exploitation, objectification, etc. No one is really talking about about any actual concrete plans to bring down the patriarchy or end capitalism or whatever. They are just women fed up with the treatment they have received at the hands of men in their lives. Most other feminist groups center men - transwomen, or are pro-prostitution and pro-porn, etc, so women find their way to radfem forums. Radfem circles really aren't that radical.

                  [–]millicentfawcett 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                  Yes this is my experience. I call myself radfem sometimes but mainly to differentiate from libfem politics, I'm hardly a separatist type - I have a husband and several male children. I've been around radfem circles online and in real life for a few years now and I've met very few women I would describe as hardcore man-haters. As the poster above says it's mostly just a bunch of pissed off women with a variety of views on how to deal with it. People get too hung up on the word radical IMO which essentially means root - as in the root of our oppression is female biology. It's not meant as some kind of anarchist symbolism.

                  [–]BEB 32 insightful - 3 fun32 insightful - 2 fun33 insightful - 3 fun -  (5 children)

                  Regarding the US, I know that the majority of Americans have no idea what a Rad Fem is, nor would they know of any LGB / Rad Fem link, so I don't think people are sitting around, (in the middle of a pandemic and economic chaos, with a crazy President attacking the post office) thinking, "Hmmm, Rad Fems are hardcore leftists, so I'm going to hate LGB people because of them.."

                  I mean, I don't know of any Rad Fem/ LGB link except for lesbians who are also Rad Fems, and I've been lurking around LGBDroptheT since it started on Reddit.

                  Second, again in regards to the US (and apologies to non-Americans and the OP if he/she is not American) in the US, the rights of all women and all LGB regardless of whether they're feminists, Leftists, Log Cabin Republicans, misogynists, whatever, are under attack.

                  As I keep typing, the Equality Act, currently in the US Senate, will change the legal definition of "sex" to include "gender identity." This will destroy women and gay men as distinct legal categories and lead to many laws protecting women and gay men on the basis of sex thrown into limbo.

                  The Democrats and Biden, if they win the Senate and the Presidency, have promised to prioritize the passage of the Equality Act.

                  So, for now, women and LGB need to unite and act - tell the Democrats "DO NOT CHANGE THE LEGAL DEFINITION OF SEX BY INCLUDING GENDER IDENTITY."

                  Then we can go back to bickering.

                  [–]Astrid2448[S] 7 insightful - 8 fun7 insightful - 7 fun8 insightful - 8 fun -  (4 children)

                  1. I don’t think they’re sitting around thinking it. I think they might come close to “peaking” and then find groups like gendercritical, which are often just as stupid but in a different way. Part of the problem is that these people are creating this huge conflict within their leftist circles that is not immediately visible to people outside it, but hurts LGB and even TQ+.

                  2. The link is that both radfems and libfems are extremely involved in the LGBT issues to the point of it being like a mini war within both feminism and the extreme left. They are often not even gay themselves but obsessed with the issue.

                  3. I am aware of the legal issues and I comment on them. I just think radfems are hurting our case rather than helping it in many cases.

                  [–]BEB 34 insightful - 1 fun34 insightful - 0 fun35 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                  Just from lurking on GC and LGB social media, I think that, while mainstream GC feminists are extremely supportive of LGB Drop the T efforts, they're primarily fighting for women's rights.

                  And GC feminists weren't the ones who started the conflict with the TQ+: all GC feminists are trying to do is retain women's rights, spaces and sports. As far as I've seen, most GC feminists are very supportive of trans rights, they just won't let trans DEMANDS destroy women's rights.

                  I have also seen that a good percentage of the women now involved in the struggle against trans demands activism initially came to the struggle because of a gay child who suddenly decided that they were transgender. So these women do have a stake in both gay rights (to protect their child's future) and women's rights.

                  But in the US, and again I apologize if that's not where you are, or if your experiences are different, no one I know and I know a lot of educated, relatively politically involved people (casual) knows what a Rad Fem is, much less associates them with LGBT.

                  In fact, until I tell them, no one even knows that there is a faction of LGB that wants to drop the T. When I explain it, they get it, but it's a long explanation, because trans activists have been so successful in deliberately cementing the T to LGB.

                  So, in the US at least, I wouldn't worry about Rad Fems being affiliated with LGB drop the T efforts in the public mind. Young people and SJWs maybe, but Jake and Jayne Average, no.

                  [–]reluctant_commenter 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

                  I'm reading your points and it strikes me that although I feel very differently now-- this actually was pretty similar to what my position used to be, wayyyyy back before I ever got into this.

                  Let me try to meet you where you are at: I agree there is a similarity between GC and TQ in terms of how fervent they are. Both camps seem pretty damn committed to their positions.

                  But-- let's keep reality in mind here. You say this:

                  and then find groups like gendercritical, which are often just as stupid but in a different way.

                  ...but the reality is, one side, TQ, has a warped ideology that is riddled with logical inconsistencies, suppression of scientific evidence, and is used to perpetrate child abuse and violence (rape, forced SRS in some countries, etc.) on the daily.

                  Now, I'm not a radfem and I'm not about to give you a pitch on why to join GC. But-- apart from being rather zealous on the internet, and some being quite negative especially about men (and I totally agree that is worth addressing, see my other comment reply)-- what is GC doing that makes them "as stupid but in a different way" as TQ?

                  Like, we've got 1. institutionalized child abuse + doxxing on the regular and god knows what else, vs. 2. being an asshole on an online forum. Those are not equivalent, lol. And I could be wrong but it doesn't seem to me like GC is being harmful in this sub.

                  edit: Also, while I am still personally wary of the GC sub, the GC people I have encountered on this sub all seem pretty polite. Maybe I am not noticing comments directed at men as much, but that is just my perspective.

                  [–]MezozoicGayoldschool gay 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

                  Most critique I've heard about GC on the West is often that they are menhaters and political lesbians. However, many there are not supporting separatism and political lesbianism (as PL are hurting very much actual lesbians nowadays, so they are trying to drop it within community) and pretty fine with men. Ovarit looks to be more radicalized, thought, than both reddit and saidit GC, but that understandable. And I am not sure if it is associated with Drop the T at all either, haven't seen it being mentioned a single time.

                  [–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                  Most critique I've heard about GC on the West is often that they are menhaters and political lesbians.

                  Yeah, that is partly why I have stayed away.

                  and pretty fine with men.

                  I guess I am hearing mixed messages on this front. You seem okay with GC; at least a few men do not, according to this poster; and either way I personally haven't noticed GC coming in here and being like "mEn sUcK" although I could've easily missed something.

                  [–]reluctant_commenter 31 insightful - 1 fun31 insightful - 0 fun32 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

                  deny science when convenient

                  Who here do you see denying science? On the contrary, I have found people surprisingly open to changing their minds or admitting a mistake when they don't know something.

                  Edit: any examples..? I am not trying to sound aggressive, sorry. If this is an issue we should fix it. I have not ever observed that here myself, though.

                  [–][deleted] 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                  I am confused too

                  [–]Gearbeta 26 insightful - 2 fun26 insightful - 1 fun27 insightful - 2 fun -  (22 children)

                  The problem is not with radfems associating themselves with us it's with libfems associating us with radfems. There's an entire Tumblr about this, about how the term terf has been used to harass lesbians. Or like how r/detrans is considered by many TRAs to be a "terf sub" despite them making a great effort to call out radfems trying to derail conversations.

                  And to be honest we're not caught in a war between two feminism idealogies. We are being almost exclusively attacked by libfems and TRA idealogy. It is they who believe we don't have the right to sexual boundaries and should put ourselves through self conversion therapy so we can fuck them. Radfems don't do this. It is libfems and TRAs who trans young GNC kids not radfems.

                  And libfems and TRAs started the fight with radfems. Most radfems would have been okay with trans people but then they started invading rape shelters, invading women's sports, changing the language to erase women, transing kids sometimes against the will of the parents, transing kids by enabling homophobic parents (see that lady that beat the shit out of her gay son and then transed him to be a girl). Radfems are defending the hardwon rights of women. And quite frankly I'd say that the current incarnation of radical feminism is a creation of libfems. It's women pushing back against them.

                  Now I'm not going to say radfems are all great, they have a real problem with people pretending to be lesbians when they're not just because they're mad at men, or saying absolutely terrible shit about men (I saw on Tumblr a radfems proudly proclaiming she would abort any male fetus... ) But so far they have been one of the only groups to consistently fight against TRA nonsense.

                  [–]Astrid2448[S] 6 insightful - 6 fun6 insightful - 5 fun7 insightful - 6 fun -  (20 children)

                  We are associated with radfems though. It isn’t some misconception, it’s true. Any anti-TQ group you make will be immediately filled with radfems, like you said they consistently fight against it. And radfems did use detrans to further their beliefs. They often stalk other subreddits, both when they agree with them and when they don’t. And the TRAs do the same thing.

                  I can understand why you feel that we are not being attacked by radfems as they are definitely more open to listening to LGB people in some contexts. However, I stand by saying their willingness to hear you talk is conditional. They listen because you agree with them on trans issues. If you say anything that goes against their ideology, they are not going to listen to you either. And like TRAs, they don’t treat people they disagree with well, because they see themselves as morally superior. Also like TRAs, this applies if you agree with 90% of what they are saying but don’t agree on the 10%, and they seek to control the narrative. On reddit, they were happy to mass downvote gay people on LGBdroptheT if it meant that the radfems could boost themselves to the top of the page. They are also generally less kind to gay men than they are to lesbians.

                  I agree that the extremism seen in radical feminism is partially due to liberal feminists attacking women’s rights. However, it isn’t the whole story. Most radfems were already hardcore liberal feminists before becoming upset with them over trans rights issues. Had trans rights activists been less extreme, they would just be part of far left feminism as another loud SJW on Twitter. That’s what I’m pointing out.

                  I appreciate your thoughts and think you stated them well, btw.

                  [–]Gearbeta 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

                  I think what we call "radical feminism" now has become more of an anti-TRA/libfem movement and less of what radical feminism used to be. I wouldn't say either is more extreme (old school radfem beliefs include IIRC things like heterosexual intercourse is inherently non-consensual). And you're certainly right that if TRAs were less extreme they would just be run of the mill libfems. But can we really say we, LGB people are any different? I mean, many gay men were completely silent on the issues happening regarding TRAs sexually harassing lesbians until transmen started doing it to them. And many lesbians didn't believe other lesbians about TRAs canceling them for not being into dick until it happens to them or they see it live in action. If TRAs were less extreme, we might not even have the droptheT movement at all. But then, if TRAs were less extreme, there might not have been a need for a droptheT movement or for radical feminism to resurge. Either way, I think that LGBdroptheT should distinguish itself from radfems so even if TRAs adamantly refuse to see the differences, we will know there is a difference and can establish boundaries between the two groups for better interactions.

                  [–]lairacunda 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                  Radical feminism is not liberal feminism to a greater degree. In fact liberal feminism isn't really feminism at all. You're confused because of the word radical which you are equating with extremism. The radical in radical feminism refers to the root of the problem.

                  r/GC had a very strong anti-brigading policy and never allowed its promotion. It would earn you an instant ban. The ones who did do a lot of brigading of all the gc subs and also of r/LGBDroptheT were TRAs. I have no idea why you think radfems would have been downvoting on LGBDroptheT. I think this is just your own idea.

                  [–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (15 children)

                  Maybe the issue then is radicals and not radfems... I am still not clear on the difference between a radfem and a gender critical feminist. I know certain ones were trans woman are just men and I will treat them as such, and then others who were like for trans rights but not at the expense of woman’s rights.

                  [–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

                  I am also unclear on this, I have seen people say that in a couple other places on this thread.

                  Maybe the issue then is radicals and not radfems...

                  I would agree. I am not a radical, and the stuff we are working to accomplish is not radical-- ending the violence that TRAs promote and perpetrate, and their anti-scientific views. I do think that some subset of GC people are more casual, and it sounds like some significant subset are not.

                  [–]writerlylesbian 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

                  The radical in radical feminism means 'root' - not extreme. The feminism that seeks to get to the root of women's oppression. Basically, that means analysing and deconstructing society/women's place in society/examining common experiences of oppression women have in order to find similarities and patterns and understand how the oppression of women works, in order to start to resist and push back against it.

                  Unsurprisingly, male violence against women is a central cause of women's oppression in societies all around the world. That is why radical feminists go on so much about it. Radical feminists have been unpopular for talking about male violence against women since forever.

                  What I always ask is, who are these people who are so adamantly against wanting to acknowledge that violence against women is a problem. I mean, we are talking about thousands of women who die every year at the hands of men. This is a structural issue. It's not about individuals.

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                      [–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 17 insightful - 4 fun17 insightful - 3 fun18 insightful - 4 fun -  (10 children)

                      The trans stuff made me very critical of the sjw types so when I ran into them at lgbdropthet I wasn't sure how they couldn't connect what we are dealing with to the whole woke movement the TRA's were attached to.

                      [–]Astrid2448[S] 2 insightful - 8 fun2 insightful - 7 fun3 insightful - 8 fun -  (4 children)

                      That’s exactly what they usually are, social justice warriors, and I don’t use that term lightly. Both TRAs and radfems are, but in slightly different ways.

                      [–]reluctant_commenter 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

                      Maybe I am missing something but what is wrong with being a "social justice warrior"..? Is an SJW necessarily a science-denier?

                      Can't you be pro-social justice, and have that be a positive thing?

                      [–]BiHorror 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

                      The term got bastardized and ruined for the rest. Basically it.

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                        [–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (4 children)

                        Do you mind if I ask a little more about what you mean? I am pretty new to LGBdroptheT in general, and didn't get a chance to browse the reddit sub before it was banned.

                        [–][deleted] 14 insightful - 3 fun14 insightful - 2 fun15 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

                        She thinks we should stop associating with TERFS as if terfs are on the opposite side of the coin from TRAs. This is false. It’s an idea that TRAs have made everyone believe. Most people are not radfem. Radfem analysis is not the issue, it’s assholes. TRAs don’t corner the market on asshole behaviour, and they call ALL of us terfs, even men. we need to be calling out ignorant bigots, in general, if we are going to call out anyone. And start telling people on our own side that they are making things worse by acting like fools. GCs in general are behaving much worse than radfems as a whole. IMO

                        [–]BiHorror 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

                        What is it that Radfem/GC do that make them ignorant? At most, I seen those who refer themselves as such be misandrist.

                        [–][deleted] 12 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

                        Radfem and gc are different things. Avoid automatically combining them. All radfems are critical of gender, but not all gcs are radfem. Both groups have some wild ideas and asshole members. But that goes for any group. Radfems are a group concerned with women’s lib, they are going to come across as “misandrist” by default, and some of them are. Just as we ALL, including men, are considered TERFS. Cutting out groups of female allies because they make us look bad to men is essentially how we got here to begin with. I wish people would stop making everything about goddamn man-hating and focus on the target for like 5 seconds.

                        [–]BiHorror 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                        Ah, alright! Thanks for the answer.

                        [–]ThiccDropkickGay 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

                        I think this sub does have a mix of all ideas. At least the old one did. I'd describe my views as mostly left-wing but I'm still decently critical of feminism and sjw-types. If you don't want to be associated with the extreme then about all you can do is call out the extreme ideas

                        [–]Astrid2448[S] 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

                        The old one somewhat did towards the end of its lifespan, because the radical feminists started to be balanced out by centrists, moderate left wingers, Republicans, gay men, and so on that were slowly joining the movement. But imo it ended before things could really get going.

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                          [–]OPPRESSED_REPTILIANIntersex male | GNC | Don't call me "a gay", "twink" or "queen" 11 insightful - 5 fun11 insightful - 4 fun12 insightful - 5 fun -  (15 children)

                          Couldn't agree more and I thank you for posting this. Fortunately SaidIt doesn't have downvotes so, unlike the original sub, radfems on here can't do their usual thing of mass downvoting to hide comments and silence people (hmm, remind you of another movement, by chance?)

                          I am completely against radical feminism. I don't give a shit that they're anti-trans, because they're also anti-intersex, anti-mentally ill, and generally unpleasant to everyone from women who don't buy into their ideology 100% to males as a whole because "hurr everyone with a penis is inherently oppressive from birth". I don't want to hear false claims about radfems being my "ally", because every time I've interacted with them they've been nothing but hostile and shown that they couldn't give less of a shit about gay males, GNC males, or bisexual people. They stand up for the L only and talk bad about everyone else.

                          Also a lot of them are, as you said, extremist left and are pro-communist and all that. As a Russian I'm really not gonna support that, thank you very much.

                          I am a centrist or non politically aligned, however you wanna call it. I don't associate myself with the left, TRA left or otherwise, nor do I associate myself with the right.

                          [–]lairacunda 13 insightful - 3 fun13 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

                          "radfems on here can't do their usual thing of mass downvoting to hide comments and silence people" RECEIPTS?

                          "I am completely against radical feminism. I don't give a shit that they're anti-trans, because they're also anti-intersex, anti-mentally ill..." RECEIPTS?

                          "they couldn't give less of a shit about gay males, GNC males, or bisexual people" RECEIPTS?

                          "Also a lot of them are, as you said, extremist left and are pro-communist and all that." RFLMAO. You don't actually know any radical feminists do you? We're actually a very diverse bunch.

                          [–]MezozoicGayoldschool gay 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

                          pro-communist

                          That is actually neo-libmens theme. As their main narrative is equality for everyone, feminism is for everyone and about happyness of everyone. It sounds clearly like communism. And they are at the same time are "american-dream" like as well, as "we will sacrifice everyone so few can succeed" - like communism leaders were.

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                            [–]Astrid2448[S] 7 insightful - 7 fun7 insightful - 6 fun8 insightful - 7 fun -  (0 children)

                            Couldn’t have said it better man. Appreciate having you around. The only thing I would add is even when it comes to the L, they are only supportive of lesbians who fully agree with them. If you differ from their views in any aspect they will shout you down as well. Just like TRAs.

                            [–]uroborosjohnson 9 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

                            I'm moderate/left-leaning politically and spend a lot of time in radfem circles. I have to saw I haven't seen any anti-intersex,anti-mentally ill talk there. Most women there have compassion for people like Caster Semanaya, and I've seen some pretty good discussions on mental illness, especially from radfems who suffered from eating disorders, body dysmorphia, gender dysmorphia, etc.

                            I'm not discounting your experience, just throwing in mine.

                            [–]BiHorror 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (8 children)

                            Jesus, didn't know they did all that. At most, I just saw misandry. Didn't know they would be against me for having a mental disorder. I don't get how they can be anti-intersex tho? Do they support IGM or something?

                            [–]lairacunda 16 insightful - 4 fun16 insightful - 3 fun17 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

                            Don't believe everything you read, especially from uninformed people talking about people they don't like.

                            Radical feminists are not anti-gay, anti-mentally ill, anti-intersex and have also been campaigning AGAINST genital mutilation for DECADES.

                            What's going on here is that this sub is getting BRIGADED by people who hate radical feminists and who don't really know a lot about us or what we think or believe.

                            [–]OPPRESSED_REPTILIANIntersex male | GNC | Don't call me "a gay", "twink" or "queen" 4 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 6 fun -  (6 children)

                            Yeah they use "mentally ill" as an insult and to describe people they don't like. Trans people being perverts? Mental illness. Women not subscribing to radical feminism? Mental illness. Someone posting something they disagree with? Mental illness.

                            They basically think that intersex people are akin to trans people and that we too are dress-wearing perverts who want to oppress the brave womyn or something. They deny that intersex conditions exist beyond mild ones, and insist that all intersex people are normal-looking men and women with minor to none health issues, which simply isn't true. People like me who are naturally androgynous and have sex characteristics of the opposite sex are deemed "liars" and apparently are just LARPing for a fetish, even though I've made about 500 posts being very clear with the fact that my life isn't easy and I specifically HATE being sexualized and fetishized for being a feminine male.

                            [–]lairacunda 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

                            I've never heard anyone except TRAs say that intersex and trans are the same. Trans have been co-opting the intersex narrative for decades. They lifted the term "assigned at birth" from them and often claim they are intersexed when they are not.

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                              [–]mangosplums 10 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 3 fun -  (5 children)

                              I also feel caught in between because I believe that some trans people are legitimate. The two sides are either all or nothing. Either there's no real trans people, everyone is the sex they were born in, even if they've gone through a full transition and have lived as the opposite sex since young adulthood, or everyone can just choose their gender and there's no such thing as sex. Both sides are so extreme. I feel uncomfortable around either group. I keep leaving this site and coming back because I'll read comments here that I disagree with so thoroughly, or comments from people who truly seem to just be bigots. It's really uncomfortable. But then I see the same from the other side, which is now the mainstream left. Both sides seem to be unreasonable to me and have authoritarian tendencies.

                              [–]8bitgay 15 insightful - 2 fun15 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

                              I think I have a similar view. I don't really care how people wanna live their lives, how they wanna present themselves and be called. I imagine it might be awful to feel dysphoria, if calling someone he/she helps dealing with it, whatever for me.

                              For me the issue is that more and more being respectful to them isn't enough. Just because I'm gay and I call you a "he" doesn't mean I'll be attracted to you. My attraction is to the male body as a whole (including the genital, but not only it), not to your identity. Gay and lesbian spaces were created because we were persecuted, because we're a minority, and first and foremost we're a sexual minority. People who aren't part of this minority might be allies but they shouldn't be in our spaces - especially not in the few spaces where we can express our sexualities freely. As much as they talk about safe spaces, they really can't respect our safe spaces. They already have their labels, they already have their spaces. I really can't understand why they're so obsessed with taking other spaces as well.

                              And frankly I find their lack of consistency very offputting too. Homosexuality is a very clear concept, but the TQ supporters aren't clear, they're always sending contradictory messages. Someone might say that gay men need to feel attracted to people who identify as men, but minutes later this same person will say that gay men need to feel attracted to non-binary people (who don't identify as men). Not only they try to redefine our sexualities, but they can't even be consistent about it.

                              [–]MezozoicGayoldschool gay 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                              Main ideas in GC are similar, thought. Most people there are former trans allies, or people who actually know transsexuals they respect. At least on reddit and here on saidit.

                              [–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

                              I also feel caught in between because I believe that some trans people are legitimate. The two sides are either all or nothing.

                              I am not GC and can't speak for them, but, I can tell you that many or even most people in this sub believe that some trans (a minority of them) people are legitimate, myself included. The medical model, so to speak. There was a bit of an informal poll in the comments of some thread a week or two ago, but I would be curious to do a poll on that anyway.

                              Both sides seem to be unreasonable to me and have authoritarian tendencies.

                              Personally I believe GC is the obvious lesser of the two evils, but I don't have much at stake in this debate. GC doesn't seem to actively harass LGB, for example (though some are homophobic)-- whereas TRAs are out for our blood.

                              [–]mangosplums 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

                              I agree that many people here, maybe even most, believe that some trans are legitimate, but there’s a large percent of very active and vocal people that don’t believe any trans person is legit. I would say that the radical feminist philosophy doesn’t think any trans person is legit because they think all trans stuff, even the most severe, is based on sexist stereotypes. That it doesn’t matter how many hormones you take or whether you’ve flipped your penis inside out or not, or how severe your dysphoria is, you are still a man and blah blah blah. I understand their point of view, I just don’t agree with it. So even if a large percentage of people on this site don’t align stringently to that viewpoint, that viewpoint is still the cornerstone of this site and the most active posters and the people who run the site adhere to it.

                              I also agree that GC is the lesser or two evils. If I didn’t think that I wouldn’t continue coming here.

                              [–]BEB 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                              Just to clarify some incorrect assertions:

                              GC and Rad fems do not hate intersex people. In fact, there are a few intersex activists at the forefront of the Gender Critical movement. Claire Graham is an intersex activist and leading GC feminist.

                              Intersex activists have asked not to be included in LGBTQ+ because intersex people have bodies that are physically different - intersex is not a feeling in their heads.

                              Many intersex activists are irritated that a condition that they were born with has been used by transgender activists to claim that biological sex is a spectrum (it isn't).

                              • The majority of GC feminists, and women fighting against the trans lobby's usurption of women's rights, do not hate LGB.

                              In fact, a sizeable % of these women came to feminism when their gay child was encouraged to transition. Their search for answers and support led to GC feminism.

                              Beyond that, as someone who fought for both women's rights and gay rights from the 1970s on, if LGB loses the support of passionate women, you will lose your rights, because it was women, mostly feminists, who were the first, ardent non-gay supporters of gay rights.

                              LGB do not have the numbers to fight off an attack on LGB rights, you need allies, and women are much more your allies than heterosexual men.

                              Scratch the surface of many heterosexual American men over the age of 42 and you'll find someone a little uncomfortable with gay men.

                              In this chaotic political climate, LGB needs women to ensure the survival of LGB rights. So I would suggest you cut women a break (rad fem, GC, just plain old women) and try to get along. Your rights might depend on it.

                              [–][deleted] 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

                              Honestly, I hear the most extremist talk from people who don’t actually know what they are talking about and are partway psycho. Lots of them know nothing about either extreme you’re mentioning, radfem or queer theory, and haven’t bothered to learn about any of it, yet still manage to projectile vomit their opinion all over forums. That is a worse look than someone who has taken the time to figure out what they are supporting or condemning. Any extreme nutcase stuff is bad news.

                              [–]VioletRemiCat, homosexual one 8 insightful - 4 fun8 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

                              This post and comments are pretty uncomfortable to read. In local news and russian news every bad thing or every failure is called to be done by radical feminism. And not just news, same on gaming forums, same on political forums, same on engineering forums, everywhere.

                              Gay men married? Radfems again. Transgedners demanding changes in laws? Damn, those radfems. Not sexualized woman in game? Radfems just killing game industry. Asking rights for sex workers? For sure radfems. Any company did worse product than before and head is a woman? It was only because of that woman, who of course was radfem. Literally anything happening - it is those evil radical feminists who are manhaters and eating baby boys hearts at the morning. Every single time.

                              All this topic is absolutely the same narrative. It is disgusting to see "classic christian" point of view among gays and lesbians. Maybe it is even worse than internalized homophobia.

                              [–]StupidHappyPancakes 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

                              At least in the U.S., "TERFY" ideas are generally associated with right wingers and not with feminism (even though feminism is right in the acronym). And those on the right think radical feminism is just super extra extreme feminism, not its own thing with substantial ideological differences from mainstream feminism, and thus they believe the super extra extreme feminists are the MOST supportive of the trans agenda.

                              [–]Astrid2448[S] 5 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 4 fun6 insightful - 5 fun -  (2 children)

                              They are not right wing. They are just called right wing by TRAs because TRAs call everyone who doesn’t agree with them 100% a bad right wing bigot. Radfems do the same thing to TRAs. They are both extremist left wing groups that are fighting for control.

                              [–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 8 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

                              This is my issue... people on the left not getting that this tra stuff is a problem of the left, coming out of modern gender/queer studies. They are pumping out little sjw’s who who tell us penises are feminine and males are bad. How do I, a life long Democrat vote for people fully drunk on libfem/tra ideology? Who will then work to make it worse for lgb and women because they are just following what these far leftists are telling them to do?

                              [–]BEB 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

                              I get the feeling that you didn't actually lurk in GC/ Rad Fem spaces, because what you're saying doesn't match what I saw lurking on those spaces for years.

                              Rad fems, like the women of WoLF (the Women's Liberation Front) are nothing like TRAs. The women of WoLF are intelligent, compassionate, brave human beings fighting for the rights and safety of all women.

                              And I'm not a rad fem, I'm not a GC fem - I'm just a plain old 2nd Wave feminist with GC beliefs.

                              [–]MezozoicGayoldschool gay 7 insightful - 4 fun7 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 4 fun -  (2 children)

                              In our country (and as far as I know in Belarussia and Russia too) any gay men activist, any trans activist, any gender ideologist, any anti-gender ideologist, any TQ and any GC are all called "those radical feminists are ruining everything" by casual media outlets and major web-resources. Hell, even MRA here are called "radical feminists".

                              So I am not sure how to "get rid of radical feminists" in LGB here, if any feminism, all LGB and TQ+ (TRA) are seen as the same one solid unit, who are fighting for the very same ideas by masses in here.

                              It is about situation in our country.

                              As far as I know in USA and majority of EU - situation is opposite, no one is connecting LGBT, LGB drop the T and TQ+ with feminism at all. So not sure what this have to do with that.

                              [–]Gearbeta 13 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

                              In western countries, anything that doesn't support TRAs is considered "TERFy" and so is associated with radical feminism. Its why we're having weird shit like anime nerds who want to say the word "trap", and people like Ricky Gervais and Joe Rogan being called TERFs when there's zero chance that any of those people are radical feminists.

                              [–]MezozoicGayoldschool gay 14 insightful - 3 fun14 insightful - 2 fun15 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

                              Well, then problem is not with radical feminism at all, but with word "TERF" used left and right without justification and any reasoning. I was actually called terf few times on reddit as well, for speaking about gay men rights and that gay men are still executed in some countries. You know, speaking about men rights made me trans-exclusionary radical feminist - because of course all radical feminists are men defending men's rights.

                              [–]BiHorror 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

                              Hold up, now I'm getting confused: What's the difference between libfem, GC (fem), and radfems? And what do they stand for? Becuase as far as I know anyone who disagrees with TRA bullshit, they're considered Terfs.

                              And what do users on here say that is considered "radfem"?

                              [–]Gearbeta 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

                              Libfems believe in things like sex work is work, sex positivity, gender idealogy (think your transwomen are women type beliefs) and generally believe it is the gender identity of women that makes them oppressed. Radfems believe that it is biological sex (female) that makes women oppressed EDIT: removing this, I was mistaken (thus males are always the oppressor) and criticize what they believe are patriarchal concepts such as marriage, sex work, sometimes sex itself, and they consider gender idealogy to be an extension of the patriarchy because they believe it reinforces oppressive sex roles that they are fighting against. Gender Critical is kind of a hard one for me to define but I'd say its like radfem lite, someone could be GC but not believe in all of radfem beliefs. But I'd say basically its people who disagree with gender idealogy for feminist reasons.

                              [–]florasisHOMOSEXUAL FEMALE/Pussy is my God and I'm monotheist 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

                              Men are always oppressors is more like an extreme form of it. Radical feminism surely is about the reality of a sexism in male dominated society and the discrimination that sex differences creates at women disadvantage. Criticizing a system is very different than saying all men are evil oppressors. That would be completely irrational and a very misconception of feminism

                              [–]MezozoicGayoldschool gay 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

                              And we should not forget that not all countries are western countries as well, more like - majority aren't. And situation with both homophobia and sexism there are much worse.

                              [–]florasisHOMOSEXUAL FEMALE/Pussy is my God and I'm monotheist 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

                              In fact. Western is just a minority of the world. Women and gay oppression is the actual norm

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