DiscussionWhy are lesbians more compliant with TRA than gay men?

submitted by rouge_tropical from self.LGBDropTheT

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[–]8bitgay 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

As others said, AGB is a very particular space. Other gay subs might be way better to compare, although I don't think anything is on the level os ActualLesbians.

Frankly though I think the same has been happening for years in gay communities. Maybe in a different pace of what happened with our lesbian. I'm a gay man and I browse gay spaces so I can't compare for sure with lesbian spaces, only with my impressions from hearing from lesbians and checking some of the content they talk about.

There is a lot of gay on gay negativity on gay spaces. I see a lot of memes mocking other gay men and homosexuality as a whole. You can dismiss stuff like memes as being internet only but honestly people replicate their behaviors online in real life too. I honestly believe that this internalized homophobia, this negativity against other gay men in the gay community was essential for the current situation.

Years ago I barely saw anyone saying that gay men should date trans men. But I saw lots of people complaining a lot about the gay community in other ways. Saying that gay men are the most racist, the most sexist, the most hateful against fat people, etc. Even years ago I still saw a lot of people complaining in gay spaces that gay men made everything about themselves, that gay men should give more space to the rest of "queer people".

This way, many gay spaces were already had an atmosphere that made it easy to spread the discourse that gay men should give space to FtM not only in their communities but even in their sexualities. The sense of inferiority made it easy for many gay men to feel like they owed something to these other groups. The negativity made it easy for many gay men to mock and shame other gay men that don't fit the current discourse rather than stand by their brothers.

Also, I might be wrong but I feel that lesbian communities are more neutral towards lesbian women that are more/less feminine. But gay communities often demonize more masculine gay men, and trans men benefit from not fitting this masculine male stereotype.

Some gay communities criticize phallocentrism and size preferences a lot, which obviously also helps this discourse. If you won't date a trans man because of genitals this means you care about penis, and caring about penis is demonized in such communities.

Edit: I wrote this when I was sleepy, and rereading it I realize I left a lot of grammar mistakes, or changed some sentence structures midway. I think it's still understandable though.

[–]florasisHOMOSEXUAL FEMALE/Pussy is my God and I'm monotheist 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Society has a shitty phallocentric view of sex which also often lead to deaming sex between women, to the point of calling it not real sex. But when it comes to sex involving dicks and no pussy, I fail to understand how a gay man would complain about phallocentrism.

Also, lesbian community can also have a very bad treatment of very femme lesbians, who are often seen as bisexual or curios

[–]Criticallacitirc 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

I think this is a case of actions speak louder than words. I live in San Francisco, the epicenter of all this BS. I see the talk and "demonizing" of being masc4masc. But if you take a step back its not about demonizing being masc. Its femme guys demonizing masc men for not being attracted to them. They want masc men, but masc men aren't allowed like other masc men. You'll hear the chatter of femme4femme, but when do you ever see that in reality?

I'm not masc or femme in terms of personality, but physically I'm a bit waif like/hairless, so I would argue more femme. These are never the type of guys trotted out when we talk about femme in the gay community. Its always some average looking otter in a crop top & with their nails painted. You strip them down naked, they look like "masc" men.

Go to any big gay party or circuit party. Everyone takes their shirts off and looks like masc men.

Look at gay porn. Its almost all either twinks, or Gay 4 pay types. The latter being focused on being masculine. There's no big demand for "femme" porn. Even when I've seen it the "femme" is more of a twink. Never seen an ogre in orange lipstick.

In terms of making space, look at Alok & Jacobia. They squaked about being nonbinary included in gay spaces. We let them in & it wasn't good enough for them. All of their articles complain about not getting laid. They both also if you undress them & take off the makeup look like hairy masc men.

Basically gay men, I think are being accommodating by letting people speak ect.. but they aren't really changing.

[–]oofreesouloo⚡super lesbian⚡ 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

I think this is a case of actions speak louder than words. I live in San Francisco, the epicenter of all this BS. I see the talk and "demonizing" of being masc4masc. But if you take a step back its not about demonizing being masc. Its femme guys demonizing masc men for not being attracted to them. They want masc men, but masc men aren't allowed like other masc men. You'll hear the chatter of femme4femme, but when do you ever see that in reality?

This exact same thing also happens in the lesbian community. I'm femme4femme and sometimes we're shamed for it, while butches are allowed to only date femmes if they wish. Femmes are also allowed to only date butches if they wish. We're accused of being "shallow" and of idolizing 'performative femininity', whatever that means. I swear to god I cringe so hard whenever I hear the word 'performative femininity'. 😑 Also, there's this tendency in the lesbian community to shame somehow femininity while masculinity is seen as something to be praised. I do appreciate people breaking gender stereotypes, BUT let's not value one over the other. You're allowed to have your preferences.

[–]florasisHOMOSEXUAL FEMALE/Pussy is my God and I'm monotheist 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Masculine women is total turn off, not to talk about butches are all about gender role and play dominant part (doesn't work for me, baby, I'm the opposite of submissive). Femininity is beautiful, two women with female style together are fucking hotter than any couples looking like a straight couple. Sorry not sorry lol

[–]oofreesouloo⚡super lesbian⚡ 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

doesn't work for me, baby, I'm the opposite of submissive

I'm mostly a bottom actually (kind of a switch - 70 bottom/30 top lmao), but only top femmes do turn me on. Top butches don't 🤷 They're really different from each other, despite being both top.

[–]florasisHOMOSEXUAL FEMALE/Pussy is my God and I'm monotheist 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Yeah, I bet a top butch would be all about some dildo, maybe even pretending to get a blowjob lol And also there is all the fact of being wary of how you treat them or touch them, because their fragile masculinity. Who would want that shit?

[–]strictly 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Yeah, I bet a top butch would be all about some dildo, maybe even pretending to get a blowjob lol And also there is all the fact of being wary of how you treat them or touch them, because their fragile masculinity. Who would want that shit?

I happen to be a stone and technically butch too. If a woman wanted to pretend giving me a blowjob (yikes) I would leave. And I've never suggested using dildos. I'm physically uncomfortable with being toched in certain ways (don't know why) but as I have never desired such touch in the first place I see it as non-issue. In my eyes sex acts should be consensual and I just don't consent to these, I think that is okay. I'm of course open with it to potential partners and if someone isn't into that shit, well good for her, I don't judge. I don't care if someone turned off by butches either, each to their own (I'm personally not that into super femmes who seem too nice and inclusive).

[–]florasisHOMOSEXUAL FEMALE/Pussy is my God and I'm monotheist 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Yeah, what I was talking there is a link about being masculine and not wanting to be be touched in a certain way. Like yeah I love to be sexually dominant, but I also don't mind to being dominated too and do not have any rules about touched. Because I'm a femme, I don't have to fit some kind of male role.

[–]strictly 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

what I was talking there is a link about being masculine and not wanting to be be touched in a certain way

For me not wanting to be touched that way has nothing to with wanting to live up to some masculine ideal, I just don't desire it. I would be considered butch because I'm unfeminine but me being butch and stone is just a coincidence.

[–]florasisHOMOSEXUAL FEMALE/Pussy is my God and I'm monotheist 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Everyone has the right to feel as they like and refuse any act they don't want. But it wouldnt work for me.

[–]oofreesouloo⚡super lesbian⚡ 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I mean, there are some really sweet butch women out there, just not my cup of tea personally.

I bet a top butch would be all about some dildo

Yeah, I kind of have to agree with you on this. Top butch women do tend much more often than femmes to want to use the dildo or a strap-on, something I'm REALLY NOT a fan of. It's really weird for me, that idea of sex. With a femme is a totally different the approach, much hotter for me. 😍 (I don't have nothing against people who use dildos or strap on though of course)

[–]florasisHOMOSEXUAL FEMALE/Pussy is my God and I'm monotheist 5 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 4 fun6 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

I hate fucking dildos. Phallo completely turn me off and are completely shit in getting women off anyway. Best thing about lesbian sex is the lack of it, So the idea of performing a fake sex act (fake cause there is no real person part stimulating the other just plastic, the opposite of real sexual intimacy) with a fake phallo is total turn off. I'm a great top with my own pussy and fingers, which also get a woman off one millions type better than a phallo could ever hope to do ;)

[–]8bitgay 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Its always some average looking otter in a crop top & with their nails painted. You strip them down naked, they look like "masc" men.

Wow, it's amazing to see someone else with a similar experience. I'm kinda like you, in terms of body/face I'm not very masculine. In terms of personality I don't try hard to be masculine but frankly I don't care about the stereotypical interests of the gay community either.

If I go to gay spaces I'll often be the least masculine guy there, phisically. But you have these bearded dudes acting like they're the most feminine men ever just because they say stuff they heard on RuPaul's. It's a way of being "feminine" that allows you to virtue signal in LGBT spaces, while you can also just drop these mannerisms when you need to look masculine.

Frankly I can't even remember seeing a thread complaining about masc 4 masc men that was made by an actually feminine cis man.

[–]reluctant_commenter 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Thanks for sharing your perspective! I am a lesbian and don't know much about gay men's experience of this whole thing, so it's interesting to read.

It sounds like AGB is unusually resistant, from what you are saying; do you know if other gay subs are censoring/banning people who suggest that they don't want to date trans people?

[–]8bitgay 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'd say they're on the middle between AGB and ActualLesbians. In Gaybros for example I noticed that sometimes the mods would delete posts made by FtM that would lead to these conversations (stuff like "would you date FtM?"). One could say this is a more neutral approach: on one side it stops gay men from saying no, but on the other side it protects gay men from being harassed for their answers.

I've seen on the same sub comments on both sides reaching top voted, and comments on both sides being heavily downvoted. It's like the pattern of upvotes/downvotes from the initial hours will be kept during the entire conversation, so it depends on who gets to the post earlier.

From what I've seen from comments that get upvoted/downvoted and deleted, I'd say it's a thin line. Usually mods will allow you to say you aren't interested in FtM when these questions arise (I believe in ActualLesbians this isn't allowed). But you have to be very careful with how you say it or else the comment will be removed.

Many comments dismiss the situation too. Threads with these questions keep appearing, people keep telling others that they should date FtM... But then you also get comments saying stuff like "nobody is telling you to date trans" being heavily upvoted, when a quick look at the rest of the comments will tell otherwise.