DiscussionWhich sect of trans ideology do you think is more harmful to the LGB community: truscum or tucutes?

submitted by indeepshadowsBi woman from self.LGBDropTheT

I'm sure you are familiar with the two groups, but in case you're not, here's an attempt at defining them:

Truscum (transmedicalists) believe one has to experience gender dysphoria to be trans, and transitioning medically (and surgically) is the best way to deal with that. Often believe passing is something you need to work hard for, and don't necessarily expect you to respect their pronouns until they do. These people usually transition from male to female, or female to male, and to my understanding very rarely to anything "in-between". They may or may not believe in nonbinary identities, and are considered to be gatekeepers by their opponents.

Tucutes (transtrenders) believe anyone can be trans; no dysphoria required. These people can be basically anything from medically transitioning binary transsexuals to neo-pronoun using nonbinaries. In my experience they're often less concerned with passing, but think everyone should still respect their pronouns. They oppose any gatekeeping to the trans community and promote self-identification, often believing medical treatment should be available for anyone who desires it.

As for the question I posed in the topic, I'm still on the fence, but believe both cause problems for same-sex attracted people. A couple of examples that come to mind:

Gender dysphoria is something that most often affects young people who'll grow up homosexual, and it usually goes away on its own given time. But if a young person gets sucked in by the truscum group and ends up regretting their transition, their situation is much more difficult to rectify than if they'd been going by weird pronouns and dressing androgynously.

But on the other hand, tucutes attract and validate straight people who want to feel special, who'll in turn flood LGB spaces with outrageous demands and drive us out of our own communities. Truscum probably cause that to happen as well, but to a lesser degree, since they require gender dysphoria to "join".

Which group do you believe is more harmful to us LGBs and why? What are the ways you've seen these groups cause damage to our communities?

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[–]AreYouSureee 62 insightful - 3 fun62 insightful - 2 fun63 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

I think the truscum are right. This is what actual trans people are. I do not support hormone blockers, pills or surgery until they’re 18.

The tucute is just a bunch off bullshit

[–]latuspodSuper Straight 29 insightful - 2 fun29 insightful - 1 fun30 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

This is basically my opinion as well. I think adults should be free to choose to transition if that is what they determine to be the best for them. However, I feel that due to the fact that most who experience gender dysphoria grow out of it and go on to live happy lives as homosexuals that if society was more accepting of gender nonconformity there would be less people who feel the need to transition, and that would ultimately be ideal. Also by gender I obviously mean the two, male and female, in general all the non binary stuff feels like attention seeking.

[–]Shinjin_NanaNopes faster than an Aeldari Jetbike 19 insightful - 2 fun19 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I would move that to 25, where the person has time to get out of college and into the real world.

[–]reluctant_commenter 13 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I completely agree. Like others have said, I think people who have lower levels of dysphoria could be significantly helped by having societal acceptance of GNC. However, there does seem to be some significant minority of people for whom medical intervention significantly relieves dysphoria, so I am very leery of anyone trying to discount all trans people being trans.

That said, if we are talking about like r/egg_irl type of pressuring people to believe they are trans and undergo medical interventions-- that is really messed up.

[–]haveanicedaytoo💗💜💙 39 insightful - 5 fun39 insightful - 4 fun40 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

I will never get over the fact that "truscum" and "tucute" were either invented by, or popularized by a natural born woman on Tumblr going by the handle of "idislikecispeople" and she identified as an MTF. Yes, human being born with vagina, identified as MTF. This is the Patient Zero of this whole fucking mess. The fact that both these factions have such little shame that they use these terms to describe themselves after all these years tells so much about them. I much more have respect for individuals who call themselves transsexuals or transmedicalists. It feels like the ones who call themselves Truscum (either ironically or seriously) either just gave up and accepted their shitty label, or they were too weak and lost the battle. And the people they lost the battle to were mentally ill teenagers who wanted to call themselves 'bunself/leafself/starchildself' pronouns. Either way, fuck them, how could they allow Tucutes to hijack the T and fuck everyone in the LGBT this hard?

If I have to pick a side between truscum and tucute, of course I will pick truscums true transsexuals with dysphoria every single time. I feel so sad for true transsexuals. Not only are they suffering from a mental health issue that makes them obsess with their body to such a degree, they feel like their true lives can't even begin until they chop their tits or dicks off, now they have to put up with a horde of pretenders who want to steal the label for themselves and kick the true T out, calling them 'transphobic.'

But transsexuals aren't perfect either, a lot of them try to push the ladybrain issue, or the female soul born in male body thing. Contapoints and Blaire White don't do this, they at least admit they are basically men with extreme body mods who feel relief from dysphoria by becoming (their societally-warped idea of) woman-like.

At this point, even if all the tucutes desisted and moved on to the next trend tomorrow and only transsexuals were left, I still want to separate the LGB from the T. Our original point stands. Gender issues have fuck-all to do with sexual orientation issues. The T were allowed in as a courtesy because a huge chunk of them started out life as a gay man or lesbian. But looking back we now see that we should have never allowed this. We should have said 'You're straight now, hunty. Go fly on your own wings. I'll support you as a friend, but you can't sit with us.'

[–]indeepshadowsBi woman[S] 16 insightful - 2 fun16 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I will never get over the fact that "truscum" and "tucute" were either invented by, or popularized by a natural born woman on Tumblr going by the handle of "idislikecispeople" and she identified as an MTF. Yes, human being born with vagina, identified as MTF.

Holy shit, I had no idea! That's insane - and so symptomatic of what we're seeing.

But transsexuals aren't perfect either, a lot of them try to push the ladybrain issue, or the female soul born in male body thing.

Yeah, I take issue with that as well. I get that they want to refer to science as an explanation for why they feel the way they do, but afaik, there's no bulletproof medical explanation to what causes gender dysphoria. For being generally sensible about themselves and the reality around them, it's more than a bit baffling to see some of them refer to ladybrains and male souls.

We should have said 'You're straight now, hunty. Go fly on your own wings. I'll support you as a friend, but you can't sit with us.'

Yes, basically. Their issues are not the same as ours.

[–]chickensizzle 39 insightful - 2 fun39 insightful - 1 fun40 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

From my experience, Tucutes tend to have just utterly bizarre beliefs and are probably 90% of the people that this sub takes issue with. Their absolute hatred of truscum says a lot.....

[–]fijupanda 35 insightful - 3 fun35 insightful - 2 fun36 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

"Our legal rights were once few but we lived peacefully and respectfully with others and got on with our lives.

Things changed around the turn of the century when the GRA (Gender Recognition Act) was created in the UK. Parliament in 2004 was told by doctors that about 5000 transsexuals would apply. 15 years later 4910 have. So this was not reflecting a sudden fad. It was well predicted by medicine after decades of study.

Things have altered dramatically and we are very concerned. The GRA was a mutual bond of trust between us and society. For the right to be legally defined as the sex we transition into, we accept a need for lengthy assessment and gatekeeping. We also accept exemptions where in things such as refuges, shortlists and sports one on one assessment is made and we can be excluded.

Then Stonewall, a charity advising the government, promoted a ‘transgender umbrella’. We 5000 transsexuals were made one tiny part of 500,000 now defined as trans or transgender.

There is a bewildering array of others, from those who are genuinely gender confused or identify as both genders, live as cross dressers, or appear to have psychological problems. We are as puzzled by such concepts as many others.

The reason is simple – these are trans gendervariations. They come from discomfort with ability to express gender roles.

Trans sexuals are not driven by gender expression – but have dysphoria caused by rejection of their bodily sex. Its cause is not known but it produces severe distress. The important need of transsexuals to physically transition results from this cause and there is a consequent lack of necessity for physical transition for those who are trans gender." https://sevenhex.com/why-we-transsexuals-are-leaving-the-stonewall-umbrella/

Tucutes.

From 5000 to 500 000 transgenders in a short amount of time tells you everything.

[–]Maeven 21 insightful - 2 fun21 insightful - 1 fun22 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

Different harms involved.

Tucute are the group pushing woke conversion therapy on LGBs. They are led by the incels who can't be bothered to improve their looks and bedside manner while remaining entitled pricks.

Truscum are the group pushing to make rape by deception acceptable. They believe they can pass well enough to get a partner and maybe even keep their partner in the dark. I don't know how that works and I don't want to, but apparently the number of LTR and married truscum whose SO still doesn't know is not zero. And that's horrible.

If both groups are advancing some flavor of rape culture then it's a close call. I think tucutes are possibly the worst if only because there are so many more of them and they're always proselytizing. Truscum don't proselytize to the broad public since according to their ethos, most of the public is not True Trans.

[–]indeepshadowsBi woman[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Truscum are the group pushing to make rape by deception acceptable.

I've not seen this for myself, but then again, I don't follow trans issues very closely. Deceiving other people into dating them and having sex with them without disclosing they're trans sounds absolutely deplorable, though.

Totally agree with you on tucutes; their brand of homophobia is what brought me to this sub. And yeah, both groups cause issues, but they're different issues.

[–]jiljol 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

While tucutes claim that people are attracted to identities and that "you need to look past genitals", the truscum brand of gay conversion is more subtle. They will often say things like "yes, we understand you are attracted to dick/pussy, but what if the person is fully 'transitioned'?" or "'fully-transitioned' people should only come out if they feel like it". It is true that truscum set the bar higher, so to speak, but their rhetoric is still fucked up when it comes to gay people and consent.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

They will often say things like "yes, we understand you are attracted to dick/pussy, but what if the person is fully 'transitioned'?"

I don't think it's just truscum people saying this. I think there's plenty of AGPs and transtrenders who say things like this because they're more interested in looking for gotchas than in building a coherent movement. They want to make anyone who asks any questions or asserts any boundaries look like a bigot. To do so, they're relying on the general public not knowing about the reality of transition particularly with regard to genital surgery, but also cross-sex hormones, puberty blockers, and double mastectomies. If the general public saw what went into surgery resulting in "neovaginas" and "neophalluses" as well as what the results look like, they wouldn't buy the argument that "there's no difference." I think a lot of people who push these narratives are really young and have no sexual history to speak of so it's easy for them to say "there's no difference" or that "people can't tell." In Irreversible Damage, Abigail Shrier covered that the vast majority of teenage girls who transition to trans men have no sexual history and haven't even kissed anyone.

[–]jiljol 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

From personal experience, transtrenders don't even believe that you can ever "fully" transition. They are what they say they are, period. Truscum on the other hand usually think that a certain (unspecified) number of surgeries and a certain (unspecified) amount of synthetic hormones are all it takes to become the other sex. Both are equally silly, it's just that the latter group tends to garner more sympathy because it requires more effort I suppose.

[–]indeepshadowsBi woman[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Oh shit, yes, when you put it like that, I do remember seeing sentiments like that. It makes me absolutely horrified to even think I'd find out far into the relationship that my partner has transitioned at some point in their life; it'd bbe gaslighting and deceit of a most fundamental kind.

[–]SeasideLimbs 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

In my experience, truscum are just tucutes who hide their reasons for transitioning better. I've known a lot of truscum people, including ones very determined and active in their support of the truscum community, who ended up proving themselves tucutes. Whether one is worse than the other, I'd agree with you, OP. Tucutes tend to be more openly tolerant of the "anything goes" side of the ideology and more open about the fetishistic or attention-driven nature of their identity. Truscum on the other hand tend to go to further lengths with their transition. Then again, in my experience truscum tend to be a little bit more realistic about the results of things like genital surgery and HRT (perhaps as a reaction to just how insincere tucutes are about those topics) so if I had to pick, I'd say tucutes are marginally worse.

[–]indeepshadowsBi woman[S] 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, I've similar experiences. I have some sympathy for the truscum side of trans people, but at the same time I worry about their message reaching so-called baby gays who experience gender dysphoria and don't know about the self-solving nature of it. I worry such individuals might look to medicine to fix it, inspired by the sensible and science-driven truscum, when they could in fact just be homosexual and gender non-conforming, and live a happy life if they just gave it some time. It also bothers me that I've not seen many truscum address autogynephilia, which is a massive problem for the lesbian community.

[–]ChunkeeguyTeam T*RF Fuck Yeah 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Tucutes. Truscum still have issues Like misogyny that make me not care for them but the genderwoowoo crowd and the autogynephiles are the ones trying to do away with biological sex and the right to your sexual orientation

[–]OPPRESSED_REPTILIANIntersex male | GNC | Don't call me "a gay", "twink" or "queen" 7 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 3 fun -  (6 children)

Truscum. They're the ones promoting dangerous psuedoscience, such as "innate gender", and are attempting (often succeeding) to change laws. "Tucutes" are usually just children and are in no way a real world threat.

Truscum have also been known to stalk and threaten people who go against them.

[–]indeepshadowsBi woman[S] 15 insightful - 3 fun15 insightful - 2 fun16 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

I agree with you about the pseudoscience, but I think tucutes are a genuine threat. They're weaponizing cancel culture to get their way and shut down anyone who dares to question them. They're luring in vulnerable kids and teens in desperate need for attention. They're trying to erase issues like autogynephilia. They're harassing medical professionals until they're frightened enough to let anyone transition. There are definitely a lot of green-haired 15-year-olds calling themselves stargender with weird pronouns, and yeah, maybe that's not dangerous in itself, but tucutes as a group has a lot of power.

[–]OPPRESSED_REPTILIANIntersex male | GNC | Don't call me "a gay", "twink" or "queen" 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

And truscum aren't? Honestly, the "truscum/tucute" divide is meaningless and isn't really a thing anyway. There are plenty of "neogenders" who believe in dysphoria and "classic transsexuals" who don't. If I recall "truscum/tucute" were stupid tumblr terms that originated by a few people.

I'd say that the adults pressuring kids to "transition or die" and trying to get laws changed are much more like "truscum" than not.

[–]indeepshadowsBi woman[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Oh, I wasn't saying truscum haven't caused problems for LGB people; like you can read in my post and several replies I've left to other people, I definitely think they have. I was only reacting to you saying ""Tucutes" are usually just children and are in no way a real world threat."

[–]PenseePansyBio-Sex or Bust 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

While "truscum = dangerous" seems like a pretty solid conclusion to me, don't know that I'd agree with this "tucute" assessment.

Sure, to the extent that so many are children, "tucutes" may not be much of a real-world threat... NOW. But they're hardly going to stay children, right? Yeah, they could (hopefully) grow out of it... but what if they don't? Then they'll have one of the main things that makes the "truscum" such a menace: adulthood. And the skills, credentials, connections, status, and other resources that go with it.

Could "tucutes" just be "baby truscum"? Only throwing Twitter/Tumblr tantrums until they get old enough to run corporations, lobby (or become) politicians, dictate curricula, and write laws?

[–]OPPRESSED_REPTILIANIntersex male | GNC | Don't call me "a gay", "twink" or "queen" 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

Most ridiculous trans grow out of it, I rarely see someone with "xenogender" shit or "starself" pronouns over the (supposed) age of about 16

[–]PenseePansyBio-Sex or Bust 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Well, isn't "ridiculous trans" redundant, though? Just a matter of what form the ridiculousness takes: regular or extra. So do these kids ever just exchange the extra-ridiculous brand of trans ("xenogender" etc.) for the regular ("transwoman"/"transman"/"nobinary") when they get older?

[–]notdelusionalbased faggot 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Isn't this a choice between people who take a delusion to an extreme versus those who have a more moderate approach?

[–]PassionateIntensity 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Autogynephiles and their Tumblr yaoi counterparts. Sometimes they have "dysphoria"-- or what they call dysphoria-- so they don't fit neatly into either of these categories. Straight people claiming a gay trans identity and colonizing our community are the ones doing most of the damage. I refuse to recognize them as gay.

[–]PenseePansyBio-Sex or Bust 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Good question, OP. And a bit of a mind-bender: kept going back and forth on it-- "truscum!" "no, tuctues!" "but truscum really hurt us tho!" etc. Then: "Well, they're just harmful in different ways." Followed by: "Guess it's a harmfulness-draw."

But when I really think about it... both "sects"' harmfulness here comes down to the same thing: gender overriding sex. That is, "trans-ness" itself. So, where us LGBs are concerned, perhaps you can't compare "truscum" and "tucutes" because there's actually no meaningful difference.

Both are devoted to the idea that gender is more important than biological sex. Otherwise, how could they even BE "trans"? So "truscum" and "tucute" alike are harmful to us, in that we're defined by, and they are at WAR with, the primacy of sex. Whichever of them wins... we lose. By being erased.

It's the basic ideology of "trans" that's the problem. The rest-- what ostensibly distinguishes the sects from each other-- just seems like packaging.

[–]GConly 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Tucutes (transtrenders) believe anyone can be trans;

Those are the ones in the LGBT club at uni making my lesbian daughter roll her eyes.

Bunch of girls in jeans and boots, most of whom are hetero, saying ''Im a transboy/enby".

She also thinks the truscum probably have a proper medical issue and they shouldn't be lumped in with these sad sacks.

Thinking through this, how many of the truscum genuinely wanted self ID? It minimises the crap and medical procedures they've gone through if anyone can now roll up and say I'm trans, just for oppression points.

[–]fuckupaddamsBisexual Terve 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The truscum are the same trans people.