Trans Rights Are Not Like Gay Rights! Trans is NOT the New Gay

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[–]Finnegan7921 16 insightful - 8 fun16 insightful - 7 fun17 insightful - 8 fun -  (11 children)

The LGB's let the T's in and promoted their cause b/c they wanted to grow the overall non-hetero movement. They are reaping what they have sown. Being gay is one thing, being a lesbian is another, bi, same. Those are all based in reality. The T's are clearly mentally ill, many are clearly fetishists yet the LGB movement allowed the T movement to fester into what it is today. Now they are pissed that the spotlight has been stolen and they've been taken over from the inside out.

[–]yousaythosethings 9 insightful - 5 fun9 insightful - 4 fun10 insightful - 5 fun -  (10 children)

There is a difference between activists/organizations and everyday gay/bi people. LGB people aren’t as politically homogenous as many people believe, but yes I totally blame activists who claim to represent me who helped usher this in, and I know that gay people have to be on the vanguard at cleaning up this mess. We got here because historically transsexual people were generally same-sex attracted so they needed same sex rights too. These other issues are not our issues. AGPs were neither part of our movement nor gay allies.

[–]MarkTwainiac 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

We got here because historically transsexual people were generally same-sex attracted so they needed same sex rights too.

This is a myth, and buying into it imperils LGB rights as well as the rights of all women and children regardless of sexual orientation.

Historically some transsexuals were same-sex attracted, but ever since "transsexualism" first became a thing, the majority of these men have alway been AGPs attracted to women. Yes, the first transsexual world celebrity of the 1960s, Christine Jorgensen was a gay male, but the two biggest world famous transsexuals of the 1970s, Jan Morris and Renee Richards, were both heterosexual men who had been married to women and had fathered children. Morris, who fathered five children, stayed with his wife after his "sex change" and Richards has remained sexually attracted to and involved with women.

Powerful, successful heterosexual AGPs from privileged backgrounds have always been a/the major force in the transsexual movement. AGP heterosexual men who were/are prominent in fields like IT, AI, the military, medicine, media and men's rights activism such as Martine Rothblatt, Jennifer Pritzker, Zoe Tur, Kristen Beck, Marci Bowers, India Willoughby, Dave Thomas (I can't remember his lady name), the Wachowski brothers and so on have long been the norm, not the exceptions, amongst the TIM population in the Anglophone world.

If historically most trans males really were homosexual and thus truly marginalized, the T wouldn't have made such swift and massive headway in invading and overtaking gay rights organizations and in garnering the attention and sympathy of the public. Many "LGB" organizations and a good number of homosexual individuals seem to have been hoodwinked into believing or assuming most transsexuals were/are generally same-sex attracted and thus needed/need gay rights, but that seems to be less a result of the actual facts than of the clever forced-teaming tactics AGP straight TIMs have employed in the service of their entryism.

It's reasonable and understandable to blame the gay activist organizations and individuals who've helped usher in and champion this men's rights movement, as well as all the women's, human rights and civil liberties organizations that have abandoned their missions and the people they're supposed to serve to do the same. But none of them are the originators of this aggressive, cunning movement of male libertinism and narcissism - TIMs, straight as well as gay with AGP, with a nefarious agenda are.

[–]yousaythosethings 5 insightful - 6 fun5 insightful - 5 fun6 insightful - 6 fun -  (7 children)

I think we’re not saying inconsistent things. The understanding of who is considered a transsexual changed greatly over the last century. There were AGPs hanging out in gay bars in the U.S. in the 60s but they were considered something separate and not part of the gay liberation movement.

I do agree that there has been a deliberate long-standing campaign by AGP males and this is an area I need to research more, and they have always hidden behind HSTS. That being said, the orgs in question did allow themselves to get captured and invert their original purposes and turn their backs on gay people all while pretending to still represent us and now silencing us and our straight women allies. It’s a massive shitstorm.

[–]MarkTwainiac 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

The understanding of who is considered a transsexual changed greatly over the last century.

Whose understanding in particular are you referring to when you speak broadly and grandly of "the understanding" here? And do you really mean "understanding," or is the word "assumption" perhaps more apt?

Anyone who has looked into the phenomenon of "transsexualism" and "transgenderism" in depth twigged decades ago to the fact that many/most TIMs are heterosexual men. The only people who assume that TIMs are mainly gay men are those who've not looked very closely, and have not met many of these men.

the orgs in question did allow themselves to get captured and invert their original purposes and turn their backs on gay people all while pretending to still represent us and now silencing us and our straight women allies.

This happens in revolutionary movements all the time, as what occurred in the Russian revolutions well illustrated.

Still, your claim that orgs and individuals "did allow themselves to get captured" doesn't sit easily with me coz it puts ALL the emphasis - and ALL the blame - on the captives and puts no blame on those who marched in with their weapons, aggression and conquering mindset and did the capturing. Would you say the native peoples of the Americas "did allow themselves to get captured" by colonizers of European heritage? Do you say the people of Poland "did allow themselves to get" invaded and taken over by the Nazis and later by the Soviet Union? Would you say the people of Cambodia "did allow themselves to get captured," enslaved and killed off en masse by the Khmer Rouge? Do you think the Uyghurs in concentration and forced labor camps in China today "did allow themselves to get captured" by the CCP and therefore the world should turn a blind eye to their plight?

Sounds an awful lot like the blame that was often heaped on European Jews after the Holocaust - anti-Semites used to say the Jews had their persecution and genocide coming coz the Jews didn't foretell the future and thus didn't arm themselves and fight back sufficiently,. Instead it was said they went like silent lambs to their slaughter. Which puts all the blame on the Jews, none on the Nazis and all their collaborators. And it of course completely ignores that the Jews did resist and fight back in many ways, which is why some survived the massive efforts to eliminate them all.

A principal reason gay, civil and women's rights orgs in Western countries got captured by the T is largely the result of capitalism and fear of becoming obsolete - the leaders and staffs of these orgs were willing to jump on the next bandwagon, whatever it might be, in order to keep the gravy train of funding and attention going and so they would still appear to be of use and relevance and to be backing a trendy cause of burning import that the press and public would rally around.

There's an old saying that goes something like this: what begins as a worthy cause soon becomes a business, and then it turns into a racket. Nowadays, the/a main purpose of many charities and rights organizations in the West is to provide cushy, well-paying jobs, prestige, power and perks for the individuals employed by these organizations, not to fulfill their original missions or to serve the people they were initially set up to help.

Also, by embracing the T dominated by AGP straight men like Martine Rothblatt, Chuck Charlotte Clymer and Grace Lavery, gay rights, women's rights and civil rights organizations have become men's rights organizations dead set on rolling back rights for women of all sexual orientations. This suits the people who work for and set policy for these orgs, coz whether they are male or female, gay, straight or bi, many people today - especially "activists" and "progressives" too young to recall the politics and events of the 1960s, 70s and 80s - are misogynists.

[–]yousaythosethings 5 insightful - 6 fun5 insightful - 5 fun6 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

Just no. Nope. No. No thanks. No to all of it. Not sure what you were thinking with this or who you think it is that you’re grandstanding to but you’re tilting at windmills. Your comment is so out-of-touch, presumptuous, disproportionate, and over-the-top in how much of a misread it is on what my point was. It also manages to be absurdly offensive in its comparison of your own (incorrect) assumption about what I think and believe to historical situations implicating the murders of my own family members and other areas of history I studied extensively while obtaining a degree in history. Incredible.

[–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I can't speak to the histories of the organizations you're describing, but I do want to point out a mistake regarding AGP:

Anyone who has looked into the phenomenon of "transsexualism" and "transgenderism" in depth twigged decades ago to the fact that many/most TIMs are heterosexual men. The only people who assume that TIMs are mainly gay men are those who've not looked very closely, and have not met many of these men.

Strictly speaking, this is an inaccurate generalization. This is correct only for Western countries specifically in their recent rise in transsexualism, but not around the world. In other settings, throughout human history, the vast majority of transsexuals have, actually, been exclusively androphilic, i.e. homosexual. For example in ancient India.

(And, this is part of what makes the current T movement so unusual-- it's very dominated by autogynephilic men. Likely the influence of technology and porn has played an important role in this pattern.)

Sources:

When I looked at the relative numbers of autogynephilic and androphilic gender-dysphoric males back in 1987, the autogynephilic cases were already a majority, approaching 60 percent. The proportion had reached 75 percent by 2010, and it might be even higher now. I don’t know of any evidence of significant populations of autogynephilic MTF trans in any non-Western countries. That doesn’t mean such individuals don’t exist. It could simply mean that, for non-homosexual males, the social cost of “coming out” as trans is much higher in non-Western cultures.

The people we see identify as trans in Western cultures are much more likely to be heterosexual and/or AGP, than in other cultures around the world. Also that's a fast rate of change!

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Transsexxualism is a fairly new phenomenon in human history, that arose because of the advancements in medical technology which made cosmetic sex surgeries and administration of cross-sex hormones possible. This technology and some doctors' questionable ethics enabled the lie that one can change sex. Trasgenderism was born later when some people decided that self-ID was more convenient for them.

I don't think it's good to analyse the so called third genders present in other cultures through the lens of transsexualism and transgenderism when these are not equivalents.

https://culturallyboundgender.wordpress.com/2013/03/09/toward-an-end-to-appropriation-of-indigenous-two-spirit-people-in-trans-politics-the-relationship-between-third-gender-roles-and-patriarchy/

https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-07-29/pakistans-traditional-third-gender-isnt-happy-trans-movement?fbclid=IwAR2EmUE3cvvVdGN_QTjGWAFsLgYHQPZxL84cZMRS1-8nq-y7tGYoxYcFLQE

https://www.feministcurrent.com/2020/12/06/the-sex-binary-is-not-a-western-construct-gender-identity-is/

[–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Thanks for the links!

Transsexxualism is a fairly new phenomenon in human history, that arose because of the advancements in medical technology which made cosmetic sex surgeries and administration of cross-sex hormones possible.

I think we may be talking about different things. The modern transgender surgeries we see so prevalent today were pioneered in the early 1900s and they are not millenia old or something, I agree. Our modern idea of a "transsexual" is quite different from the "indigenous equivalents" that TRAs are so eager to cite. And, as you pointed out, gender identity ideology is also quite new and often claims ancient roots although these claims are misleading.

However, paraphilias such as autogynephilia have likely been around for a while, and of course, there have been very feminine men and very masculine women likely for as long as humans have existed. Transgender ideology is all about pretending sex doesn't exist, and that is probably the most distinctive part of it that is new.

[–]BiologyIsReal 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You're welcome.

By sex cosmetic surgeries I meant what is usually called "sex change surgeries", sex reassigment surgeries" or "gender confirming surgeries" when talking about transsexualism/transgenderism, which were pionnered in the XX century. I don't like the usual terminology because I found it misleading, so I called them sex cosmetic surgeries for lack of a better term.

I think the differences observed between the modern western trans identified populations and indigenous third genders populations are due to the fact transsexualism/transgenderism and the various kinds of third genders are conceptually different.

I think the modern transgender movement is being fuelled by porn. Although paraphillias such as AGP aren't new, the ever increasing and easier access to pornography (which keeps getting more extreme) from younger ages is bound to widespread them. I think that would explain the increasing percentages of western AGP men observed by Blanchard.

Furthermore, by my, admitedly very limited, understanding of them, they occupy a specific social rol within their respective cultures and there are rules surrounding them about who is and what can do a hijra, fa'afafine, etc. I suspect AGPs, who are more interested in acting out their fetishes in public, would not find all the "gate-keeping" and lifestyle very appealing. Not to mention they would not be viewed as women by the locals.

[–]VioletRemi 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

AGP were mostly after lesbians, so they weren't too often in gay men clubs, and they were sometimes very loud (at least on few events I've seen), but media and LGB orgs were always highlingting G the most, even now G comes second after T, while B gaining mentions with "pansexualism", and L is completely forgotten by those organisations: http://users.ox.ac.uk/~sfos0060/LGBT_figures.shtml

And in 2019 and 2020 everything went even worse for lesbians, and even for gays.

That being said, the orgs in question

Just followed the money. And always did, except maybe first 10 years of their existence.

[–]VioletRemi 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Not really: there was already AGP in 1973 lesbian conference, trying to push agenda that sleeping with a dick is a good thing, which made conference to basically be cancelled, as they were discussing him instead of actual problems, and some feminists and bisexual women (and even some lesbians) were supporting him, most lesbians were saying it is bullshit.

https://uncommongroundmedia.com/what-was-happening-before-just-be-nice-feminism-part-iii-west-coast-lesbian-conference-1973/

One AGP was at 1980s meeting too, and took away mic from lesbian woman on LGB issues and was chanting something like "lesbians are bigoted", but was silenced by host.

So it started long time ago. And they weren't mostly homosexual, as they already were attacking lesbians. They were always attacking lesbians and started killing LGB from lesbians. Same as now - all lesbian spaces are just banned, digital ones in internet and physical ones like lesbian clubs. And yet most "LGBT" organisations were ignoring us. If you check mentioning of L, G, B, T by big organisations like Stonewall, they almost completely ignoring L, sometimes not releasing even a single article per year about us, while having dozens or hundreds about T, for years now.

Homosexual were mostly transsexuals from homophobic countries, like USSR, where gay men were either forced by police or by society to transition.