Trans Rights Are Not Like Gay Rights! Trans is NOT the New Gay

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[–]Finnegan7921 16 insightful - 8 fun16 insightful - 7 fun17 insightful - 8 fun -  (25 children)

The LGB's let the T's in and promoted their cause b/c they wanted to grow the overall non-hetero movement. They are reaping what they have sown. Being gay is one thing, being a lesbian is another, bi, same. Those are all based in reality. The T's are clearly mentally ill, many are clearly fetishists yet the LGB movement allowed the T movement to fester into what it is today. Now they are pissed that the spotlight has been stolen and they've been taken over from the inside out.

[–]VioletRemi 30 insightful - 5 fun30 insightful - 4 fun31 insightful - 5 fun -  (12 children)

It is complete BS. "Transbians" are attacking lesbians and banning our spaces for decades now. Nice victim blaming here. Is Magdalen Burns guilty for letting them in as well? Are you blaming rape victims too?

And a lot of people are thinking that this issue is because of feminism. Is it too? Should we now blame GC too on it?

[–]reluctant_commenter 16 insightful - 2 fun16 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

Thank you for saying this. This shit is why I haven't joined GC and still am not interested in doing so, too many people here are happy to just bash LGB people. I didn't ask to have my demographic invaded by a bunch of autogynephilic men, the idiots at Stonewall and GLAAD decided that after the Pritzkers and other billionaires pumped money into the transgender medical industry.

[–]VioletRemi 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Well, there aren't that many homophobes on GC side, but some that there are - are pretty annoying. And ones who blame us in everything should be called out as well. Most people just do not know and believing TRA propaganda (like so many GC are thinking that TRA are saying truth about intersex), because that is the only version they are seeing. And every other version is banned in media, so without calling out or correcting people - no one will know that there is different side. Intersex people all over Twitter running around and trying to speak against BS to both sides, most GC people listening, some don't, most TRA people not listening, but some are. So I am still in GC spaces, even when they are becoming anti-LGB, and if something wrong stated - trying to call it out and discuss.

In general Radical feminists are often more helping to lesbians, than gay men or bisexual women, but still need to be called out sometimes.

[–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

So I am still in GC spaces, even when they are becoming anti-LGB, and if something wrong stated - trying to call it out and discuss.

I get that and I have a ton of respect for you for doing it. I would consider doing something similar, but I have only so much energy to spare and right now I'd rather not.

[–]yousaythosethings 7 insightful - 6 fun7 insightful - 5 fun8 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

This thread is not making GC look good on either end, both for the blame of individual LGB people and what apparently is an attempt to defend LGBT orgs who sold out LGB people for $$$. I’m suddenly reminded why I could not get into Ovarit and why I don’t post as much here anymore.

[–]DifferentAirGC 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

This shit is why I haven't joined GC and still am not interested in doing so, too many people here are happy to just bash LGB people

In my experience, GC people on old subreddit, tumblr and ovarit rarely say these things. I usually see this argument in reddit's TumblrInAction, which is not a feminist site at all.

[–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Fair point, I didn't gave much experience on the old GC (or on tumblr GC) and this does actually remind me a lot of TumblrInAction-- which I'm mixed on as well.

Also to be fair, I am sure there will be at least a few people wandering in from the rest of saidit which is often pretty extreme.

[–]Finnegan7921 5 insightful - 8 fun5 insightful - 7 fun6 insightful - 8 fun -  (5 children)

How am I victim blaming ? Did I miss the initial massive resistance to the T's joining the LGB movement ? I don't think I did. The fact is that they were welcomed by activists, their cause was bonded to the overall struggle for the rights of non-hetero people and they've taken the movement over, pretty much in plain sight as they became more and more belligerent and increasingly absurd in their demands, as the trans logic became ever more twisted, the goalposts of what it meant to be a woman were moved time and time again until now it is just something anybody can feel or not, however they wake up that day, words became meaningless, science was dismissed as bullshit while feelings became paramount, yet there was no large drive to separate them from the LGB's who are grounded in reality, generally aren't as confrontational and demanding and don't usually tell people who disagree with them that they're committing LITERAL VIOLENCE with words on the internet. Plenty of LGB activists are still all aboard the T train, some are not, but to say they bear no blame for what has transpired is ridiculous.

[–]MarkTwainiac 27 insightful - 1 fun27 insightful - 0 fun28 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Did I miss the initial massive resistance to the T's joining the LGB movement ?

Yes, you clearly did. Amongst lesbians in the US and elsewhere, there was massive resistance to the Ts joining starting in the 70s, when AGP men first started pushing to be let into lesbian spaces and to be considered lesbians themselves. Look at the controversy that happened over letting a TIM be part of Olivia Records in the early 70s. And look at what happened to Michfest. Look also at the work and personal experience of lesbian feminists who very loudly and publicly sounded the alarm about the Ts such as Janice Raymond, who published "The Transsexual Empire" in 1979, Mary Daly, Sheila Jeffreys, and Cathy Brennan.

Amongst gay men too there was strong resistance to letting the Ts, even the homosexual ones, play a major role in gay rights. During the AIDS crisis of the 80s, there were lots of gay guys who expressed disdain and even revulsion for their transvestite brothers. Guys who did drag were seen as one thing, guys who lived as transvestites were seen as entirely another.

I know quite a number of gay men who were active in gay rights in the 70s and involved in groups like ACT UP during the AIDS crisis of the 80s who felt embarrassed by and even contemptuous of gay transvestites and did not want to align themselves with them - they saw TVs as "other" and as bad for the movement, on par with the gay pedophiles of NAMBLA and PIE.

After the documentary "Paris Is Burning" came out in the early 90s, many of these men said their eyes and hearts were opened a bit, and they began reassessing their revulsion and rejecting attitudes towards these other men. However, many of these gay men still were adamant that giving transvestites "a place at the table" was "problematic" for gay rights for a number of reasons.

[–]VioletRemi 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Thank you.

[–]MarkTwainiac 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Glad to be of service. I really hate all this erasure and revising of history that's being done by parties on all sides these days.

[–]VioletRemi 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

How? Well, you are even in this post saying that we somehow should have been stopping them from closing our spaces and trying to coerce into raping us. That we somehow should overpower them taking our spots and attacking us. We wer espeaking against them. And what? Anyone listened? Anyone is listening lesbians right now too? We are screaming, but all our voices are silenced. On Pride we were not given a word when we tried to say about this issue, and each year less and less voice we had in any LGBT event or organisation. Stonewall (and GLAAD) just all focused on Transes, ignoring lesbians (and most gay men too, but not all of them). No one is just listening, - like you too is refusing to listen, and ready to throw us under the train, because somehow "we deserved it" and we are "reaping what we sown". How is that not a victim blaming?

Even books were published by lesbians and gays about T attacks on LGB and on women. But no one listened.

So if there is someone to blame on "letting T in", then it is people who refused to listen to us then and refusing to listen to us now. We not "let them in", you did by not helping us and not listening us.

Insanity. Feminism on helping women, but "lesbians should be raped by TW as we deserved it, as lesbians created TW and let then in movement"! Those damn lesbian activists, who love sleeping with men and promoted TW. All their fault. Suuure.

[–]lefterfield 11 insightful - 8 fun11 insightful - 7 fun12 insightful - 8 fun -  (0 children)

Individual lesbians are not to blame for the activists, nor for the LGBT movement as a whole, and certainly no individual is to blame for being sexually assaulted. But I don't think that was the point. There is some truth to the idea that LGBT organizations abandoned the LGB side without much pushback. You can talk about lesbians objecting to it, but I can remember back in 2011 being lectured by lesbians and gay men for even asking questions about the T's. Everyday people, not activists. There's also some truth to feminists abandoning their commitment to women(at least libfems) in favor of the men in dresses. Of course they're not solely responsible, there was a movement of elites pushing this narrative for decades before it took off. But often the way power is transferred to lunatics is for good people not to say anything. A lot of people, including many who were LGB, bought into the 'trans are the most oppressed victims of us all' narrative.

[–]fuckupaddams 17 insightful - 2 fun17 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

"letting" is not exactly accurate when people are being banned and shamed into silence for trying to speak out.

[–]yousaythosethings 9 insightful - 5 fun9 insightful - 4 fun10 insightful - 5 fun -  (10 children)

There is a difference between activists/organizations and everyday gay/bi people. LGB people aren’t as politically homogenous as many people believe, but yes I totally blame activists who claim to represent me who helped usher this in, and I know that gay people have to be on the vanguard at cleaning up this mess. We got here because historically transsexual people were generally same-sex attracted so they needed same sex rights too. These other issues are not our issues. AGPs were neither part of our movement nor gay allies.

[–]MarkTwainiac 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

We got here because historically transsexual people were generally same-sex attracted so they needed same sex rights too.

This is a myth, and buying into it imperils LGB rights as well as the rights of all women and children regardless of sexual orientation.

Historically some transsexuals were same-sex attracted, but ever since "transsexualism" first became a thing, the majority of these men have alway been AGPs attracted to women. Yes, the first transsexual world celebrity of the 1960s, Christine Jorgensen was a gay male, but the two biggest world famous transsexuals of the 1970s, Jan Morris and Renee Richards, were both heterosexual men who had been married to women and had fathered children. Morris, who fathered five children, stayed with his wife after his "sex change" and Richards has remained sexually attracted to and involved with women.

Powerful, successful heterosexual AGPs from privileged backgrounds have always been a/the major force in the transsexual movement. AGP heterosexual men who were/are prominent in fields like IT, AI, the military, medicine, media and men's rights activism such as Martine Rothblatt, Jennifer Pritzker, Zoe Tur, Kristen Beck, Marci Bowers, India Willoughby, Dave Thomas (I can't remember his lady name), the Wachowski brothers and so on have long been the norm, not the exceptions, amongst the TIM population in the Anglophone world.

If historically most trans males really were homosexual and thus truly marginalized, the T wouldn't have made such swift and massive headway in invading and overtaking gay rights organizations and in garnering the attention and sympathy of the public. Many "LGB" organizations and a good number of homosexual individuals seem to have been hoodwinked into believing or assuming most transsexuals were/are generally same-sex attracted and thus needed/need gay rights, but that seems to be less a result of the actual facts than of the clever forced-teaming tactics AGP straight TIMs have employed in the service of their entryism.

It's reasonable and understandable to blame the gay activist organizations and individuals who've helped usher in and champion this men's rights movement, as well as all the women's, human rights and civil liberties organizations that have abandoned their missions and the people they're supposed to serve to do the same. But none of them are the originators of this aggressive, cunning movement of male libertinism and narcissism - TIMs, straight as well as gay with AGP, with a nefarious agenda are.

[–]yousaythosethings 5 insightful - 6 fun5 insightful - 5 fun6 insightful - 6 fun -  (7 children)

I think we’re not saying inconsistent things. The understanding of who is considered a transsexual changed greatly over the last century. There were AGPs hanging out in gay bars in the U.S. in the 60s but they were considered something separate and not part of the gay liberation movement.

I do agree that there has been a deliberate long-standing campaign by AGP males and this is an area I need to research more, and they have always hidden behind HSTS. That being said, the orgs in question did allow themselves to get captured and invert their original purposes and turn their backs on gay people all while pretending to still represent us and now silencing us and our straight women allies. It’s a massive shitstorm.

[–]MarkTwainiac 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

The understanding of who is considered a transsexual changed greatly over the last century.

Whose understanding in particular are you referring to when you speak broadly and grandly of "the understanding" here? And do you really mean "understanding," or is the word "assumption" perhaps more apt?

Anyone who has looked into the phenomenon of "transsexualism" and "transgenderism" in depth twigged decades ago to the fact that many/most TIMs are heterosexual men. The only people who assume that TIMs are mainly gay men are those who've not looked very closely, and have not met many of these men.

the orgs in question did allow themselves to get captured and invert their original purposes and turn their backs on gay people all while pretending to still represent us and now silencing us and our straight women allies.

This happens in revolutionary movements all the time, as what occurred in the Russian revolutions well illustrated.

Still, your claim that orgs and individuals "did allow themselves to get captured" doesn't sit easily with me coz it puts ALL the emphasis - and ALL the blame - on the captives and puts no blame on those who marched in with their weapons, aggression and conquering mindset and did the capturing. Would you say the native peoples of the Americas "did allow themselves to get captured" by colonizers of European heritage? Do you say the people of Poland "did allow themselves to get" invaded and taken over by the Nazis and later by the Soviet Union? Would you say the people of Cambodia "did allow themselves to get captured," enslaved and killed off en masse by the Khmer Rouge? Do you think the Uyghurs in concentration and forced labor camps in China today "did allow themselves to get captured" by the CCP and therefore the world should turn a blind eye to their plight?

Sounds an awful lot like the blame that was often heaped on European Jews after the Holocaust - anti-Semites used to say the Jews had their persecution and genocide coming coz the Jews didn't foretell the future and thus didn't arm themselves and fight back sufficiently,. Instead it was said they went like silent lambs to their slaughter. Which puts all the blame on the Jews, none on the Nazis and all their collaborators. And it of course completely ignores that the Jews did resist and fight back in many ways, which is why some survived the massive efforts to eliminate them all.

A principal reason gay, civil and women's rights orgs in Western countries got captured by the T is largely the result of capitalism and fear of becoming obsolete - the leaders and staffs of these orgs were willing to jump on the next bandwagon, whatever it might be, in order to keep the gravy train of funding and attention going and so they would still appear to be of use and relevance and to be backing a trendy cause of burning import that the press and public would rally around.

There's an old saying that goes something like this: what begins as a worthy cause soon becomes a business, and then it turns into a racket. Nowadays, the/a main purpose of many charities and rights organizations in the West is to provide cushy, well-paying jobs, prestige, power and perks for the individuals employed by these organizations, not to fulfill their original missions or to serve the people they were initially set up to help.

Also, by embracing the T dominated by AGP straight men like Martine Rothblatt, Chuck Charlotte Clymer and Grace Lavery, gay rights, women's rights and civil rights organizations have become men's rights organizations dead set on rolling back rights for women of all sexual orientations. This suits the people who work for and set policy for these orgs, coz whether they are male or female, gay, straight or bi, many people today - especially "activists" and "progressives" too young to recall the politics and events of the 1960s, 70s and 80s - are misogynists.

[–]yousaythosethings 5 insightful - 6 fun5 insightful - 5 fun6 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

Just no. Nope. No. No thanks. No to all of it. Not sure what you were thinking with this or who you think it is that you’re grandstanding to but you’re tilting at windmills. Your comment is so out-of-touch, presumptuous, disproportionate, and over-the-top in how much of a misread it is on what my point was. It also manages to be absurdly offensive in its comparison of your own (incorrect) assumption about what I think and believe to historical situations implicating the murders of my own family members and other areas of history I studied extensively while obtaining a degree in history. Incredible.

[–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I can't speak to the histories of the organizations you're describing, but I do want to point out a mistake regarding AGP:

Anyone who has looked into the phenomenon of "transsexualism" and "transgenderism" in depth twigged decades ago to the fact that many/most TIMs are heterosexual men. The only people who assume that TIMs are mainly gay men are those who've not looked very closely, and have not met many of these men.

Strictly speaking, this is an inaccurate generalization. This is correct only for Western countries specifically in their recent rise in transsexualism, but not around the world. In other settings, throughout human history, the vast majority of transsexuals have, actually, been exclusively androphilic, i.e. homosexual. For example in ancient India.

(And, this is part of what makes the current T movement so unusual-- it's very dominated by autogynephilic men. Likely the influence of technology and porn has played an important role in this pattern.)

Sources:

When I looked at the relative numbers of autogynephilic and androphilic gender-dysphoric males back in 1987, the autogynephilic cases were already a majority, approaching 60 percent. The proportion had reached 75 percent by 2010, and it might be even higher now. I don’t know of any evidence of significant populations of autogynephilic MTF trans in any non-Western countries. That doesn’t mean such individuals don’t exist. It could simply mean that, for non-homosexual males, the social cost of “coming out” as trans is much higher in non-Western cultures.

The people we see identify as trans in Western cultures are much more likely to be heterosexual and/or AGP, than in other cultures around the world. Also that's a fast rate of change!

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Transsexxualism is a fairly new phenomenon in human history, that arose because of the advancements in medical technology which made cosmetic sex surgeries and administration of cross-sex hormones possible. This technology and some doctors' questionable ethics enabled the lie that one can change sex. Trasgenderism was born later when some people decided that self-ID was more convenient for them.

I don't think it's good to analyse the so called third genders present in other cultures through the lens of transsexualism and transgenderism when these are not equivalents.

https://culturallyboundgender.wordpress.com/2013/03/09/toward-an-end-to-appropriation-of-indigenous-two-spirit-people-in-trans-politics-the-relationship-between-third-gender-roles-and-patriarchy/

https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-07-29/pakistans-traditional-third-gender-isnt-happy-trans-movement?fbclid=IwAR2EmUE3cvvVdGN_QTjGWAFsLgYHQPZxL84cZMRS1-8nq-y7tGYoxYcFLQE

https://www.feministcurrent.com/2020/12/06/the-sex-binary-is-not-a-western-construct-gender-identity-is/

[–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Thanks for the links!

Transsexxualism is a fairly new phenomenon in human history, that arose because of the advancements in medical technology which made cosmetic sex surgeries and administration of cross-sex hormones possible.

I think we may be talking about different things. The modern transgender surgeries we see so prevalent today were pioneered in the early 1900s and they are not millenia old or something, I agree. Our modern idea of a "transsexual" is quite different from the "indigenous equivalents" that TRAs are so eager to cite. And, as you pointed out, gender identity ideology is also quite new and often claims ancient roots although these claims are misleading.

However, paraphilias such as autogynephilia have likely been around for a while, and of course, there have been very feminine men and very masculine women likely for as long as humans have existed. Transgender ideology is all about pretending sex doesn't exist, and that is probably the most distinctive part of it that is new.

[–]BiologyIsReal 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You're welcome.

By sex cosmetic surgeries I meant what is usually called "sex change surgeries", sex reassigment surgeries" or "gender confirming surgeries" when talking about transsexualism/transgenderism, which were pionnered in the XX century. I don't like the usual terminology because I found it misleading, so I called them sex cosmetic surgeries for lack of a better term.

I think the differences observed between the modern western trans identified populations and indigenous third genders populations are due to the fact transsexualism/transgenderism and the various kinds of third genders are conceptually different.

I think the modern transgender movement is being fuelled by porn. Although paraphillias such as AGP aren't new, the ever increasing and easier access to pornography (which keeps getting more extreme) from younger ages is bound to widespread them. I think that would explain the increasing percentages of western AGP men observed by Blanchard.

Furthermore, by my, admitedly very limited, understanding of them, they occupy a specific social rol within their respective cultures and there are rules surrounding them about who is and what can do a hijra, fa'afafine, etc. I suspect AGPs, who are more interested in acting out their fetishes in public, would not find all the "gate-keeping" and lifestyle very appealing. Not to mention they would not be viewed as women by the locals.

[–]VioletRemi 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

AGP were mostly after lesbians, so they weren't too often in gay men clubs, and they were sometimes very loud (at least on few events I've seen), but media and LGB orgs were always highlingting G the most, even now G comes second after T, while B gaining mentions with "pansexualism", and L is completely forgotten by those organisations: http://users.ox.ac.uk/~sfos0060/LGBT_figures.shtml

And in 2019 and 2020 everything went even worse for lesbians, and even for gays.

That being said, the orgs in question

Just followed the money. And always did, except maybe first 10 years of their existence.

[–]VioletRemi 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Not really: there was already AGP in 1973 lesbian conference, trying to push agenda that sleeping with a dick is a good thing, which made conference to basically be cancelled, as they were discussing him instead of actual problems, and some feminists and bisexual women (and even some lesbians) were supporting him, most lesbians were saying it is bullshit.

https://uncommongroundmedia.com/what-was-happening-before-just-be-nice-feminism-part-iii-west-coast-lesbian-conference-1973/

One AGP was at 1980s meeting too, and took away mic from lesbian woman on LGB issues and was chanting something like "lesbians are bigoted", but was silenced by host.

So it started long time ago. And they weren't mostly homosexual, as they already were attacking lesbians. They were always attacking lesbians and started killing LGB from lesbians. Same as now - all lesbian spaces are just banned, digital ones in internet and physical ones like lesbian clubs. And yet most "LGBT" organisations were ignoring us. If you check mentioning of L, G, B, T by big organisations like Stonewall, they almost completely ignoring L, sometimes not releasing even a single article per year about us, while having dozens or hundreds about T, for years now.

Homosexual were mostly transsexuals from homophobic countries, like USSR, where gay men were either forced by police or by society to transition.