Caster Semenya losses appeal against the restriction of testosterone levels in female runners

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[–]DetransIS 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

Wow, this thread is honestly disgusting and a reminder why I sided with TRAs before. This is where I will question the lot of you who call yourselves gender critical and it makes me feel like crap as a woman with Swyer Syndrome a would you guess it, XY DSD that can rarely result in functioning ovarian tissue and a functional female reproductive tract. XY 5-ARD is a tricky case that I hate engaging with people on Twitter about and I hate to break it to you but not all 5-ARD ends up as "guavedoce." Now unfortunately speaking, the case against Caster is a confusing one but until I see decisive evidence that doesn't come from sites that feed off controversy and tries to pit people against one another, I have no interest in referring to her as a man. Also yes, I am aware Caster is a parent of a child but there's very little coverage about that and considering Caster herself has passed an intrusive female sports genital exam unlike others being accused of this same thing. I'd probably stay silent if it weren't for the fact PAIS got dragged into this and I've met some PAIS women who were subject to horrendous operations because of their supposed: "male chromosomes" that they are now traumatized and SUFFER from that tried to make them into boys. I'm talking cases that are virilized like CAH too but not to hypospadias point.

XY 5-ARD is under-researched and the only aspect of it that is developed are those born with it who adopt "boy gender identities" and their bodies seem to change with it, then you have the transgender ones who wish to suppress those changes. There's aspects of Caster's story that doesn't add up and it's being twisted the wrong way in this thread.

First, if Caster only ever took suppressant based HRT in the past as a late teenager, why did her genitalia never become more male like? Keep in mind that the "girls become boys" or guavedoce phenomenon takes place in younger puberty, meaning Caster had already basically been fully developed at that point in time. Also I'm aware of the leak, it states she had intersex genitalia and considering what news we're talking about and that clitoromegaly alone is enough to get you "reconstructed" I roll my eyes personally at that claim as someone subject to IGM. The bar for what gets you reconstructed for XY vs XX is telling of itself, given some "female "observed" CAH" literally have micropenis.

I understand this DSD feels unfair given what development it led to in her body, I've heard claims that her advantage is that of a biological male[MTT] while suppressed but I've also heard that the advantage is only 2% greater while not suppressed, although I'm against any athlete having to drug her body in the sake of fairness, especially when there are other such conditions leading to some of the greatest athletes like.. Oh I don't know, Michael Phelps? Also another thing, when Caster was suppressed she lost races did she not? Haven't there been trans athletes that have still dominated despite being suppressed due to their natural advantage in biology and development? Think about that one for a second. Plus she's lost to other female athletes who took steroids to increase their testosterone to male-levels, although obviously they got disqualified for cheating.

Also, you want to talk about male levels of testosterone in a DSD, let's tackle your precious XX chromosomes -shall we?- I have no issue implying certain women with DSDs are more "male-like" then I am, if they have no issue throwing me and others under the bus for their chromosomes. I'll go there, especially since I find a sex argument on chromosomes flawed and actually more in favor of the TRAs then the GC stance clearly held over here.

46 XX CAH, known as congenital adrenal hyperplasia. The untreated cases of it can easily result in more male-typical bodies then the like of un-suppressed 46 XY 5-ARD or PAIS cases that are observed female, not male. CAH's most common variant results in the CYP21A2 gene being affected. Due to increased androgens, specifically due to testosterone and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) exposure in utero, growth of the clitoris and atrophy of the vagina occur. The urethra may become displaced toward or into the clitoris in more severe forms, and in the most severe the vagina becomes fused with the urethra.. but look at that last part: " into the clitoris in more severe forms" - That's not a clitoris at that point, that's a penis. You know what the effect on 46 XY CAH is? More masculinization, larger and more pronounced genitalia.

Oh and don't even get me started on De La Chapelle Syndrome which is literally a condition where genitalia is clearly male, testicles are present although often reported small and they're infertile. Their bodies fall along the same development in sexual characteristics as male born people. It's called XX "male" for a reason. This isn't even factoring there could be many cases unreported on it, like the XY Swyer cases that were completely functional as standard females that found out they had Swyer due to a karyotype taken after pregnancy or something else. The only time one takes a karyotype is by choice in investigating an oddity, or fertility concerns.. and I don't know about you, but I've met quite a few men who wouldn't be upset about being infertile.

Caster Semenya is not a man who is infiltrating female sports, she is a woman who discovered she had a condition that gave her a biological advantage and questioned the ethics and fairness of having to suppress her natural body to compete. She is a woman who goes against the norm and has a pretty negative image of femininity. She's a woman who is likely heartbroken and has to come to terms with her position in sports and the fact that yes, her testosterone production does create an unfair advantage much like a woman taking steroids, as in those who beat her in the past but were disqualified.

Yes, she has internal testicles that do function but there is no record of her having a penis or the ability to produce sperm. In fact, virtually all DSDs that result in internal testicles cannot produce sperm, due to the internal body heat absolutely destroying that capability.

If you're going to die on the chromosome hill, I as a Swyer woman with a uterus, singular ovary, cervix and vagina will gladly dismantle your supposed "XX females" if you want to talk about male-biology....

Edit: Do you have even the slightest clue of how detrimental and earth shattering a girl or woman finding out she has PAIS or CAIS can be to her? How suddenly whenever she speaks, despite knowing she was a girl and didn't benefit off male privilege or socialization her peers are going to think of her as a defective male? This is the very mentality that justifies IGM and I am disgusted to see this here.

Edit 2: Given the responses to this, I originally was going to respond but deleted my old post but I'm just going to step away from this. This isn't just about sports and if that's all you think it is then you fail to understand the gravity of your actions given how other posters in this thread have been ragging on PAIS-and in connection CAIS, while also others stating that Y = Male. If you fail to see where this is an issue, then there was no point engaging you to begin with and I don't know why I bothered.

[–]MarkTwainiac 23 insightful - 1 fun23 insightful - 0 fun24 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is where I will question the lot of you who call yourselves gender critical and it makes me feel like crap as a woman with Swyer Syndrome a would you guess it, XY DSD that can rarely result in functioning ovarian tissue and a functional female reproductive tract.

This is a thread about the Caster Semenya case, prompted by the news yesterday that the Swiss high court has rejected Semenya's appeal in Semenya's long-running legal battle against the IAAF/World Athletics, not about Swyer Syndrome and the myriad other DSDs you mention and describe.

I am sorry you have Swyer Syndrome, but neither Swyer nor any of the other DSDs you bring up were or are at issue in the Semenya case. Semenya doesn't have Swyer, CAH, De La Chapelle Syndrome, PAIS or CAIS. Semenya has XY 5-ARD.

Each DSD is a distinct condition, with its own specific etiology, manifestations and implications. You're the one lumping them all together as if they were one and the same. Unfortunately, this only muddies the waters and promotes confusion; it doesn't advance greater awareness and understanding of these various conditions and the issues around them that people with said conditions seek and deserve.

I am also sorry that reading gender critical people's discussion of the Caster Semenya case causes you to "feel like crap." I am sure that is not the intent of anyone who has or will post here or elsewhere about the Semenya case. I do understand that it can be distressing to read/hear others' discussions of medical conditions that affect us personally. Many times in my own life I've seen/heard/been told many comments about and descriptions of my own medical conditions, and the genetic "defects" that cause several of them, that I've found hurtful and unsettling.

Now unfortunately speaking, the case against Caster is a confusing one but until I see decisive evidence that doesn't come from sites that feed off controversy and tries to pit people against one another, I have no interest in referring to her as a man.

In June 2019, the Court of Arbitration for Sport, hardly a body that "feed(s) off controversy," released to the public its 163-page decision detailing the evidence provided by both sides and all the various witnesses in the proceedings of Semenya's specific case. You can read it here:

https://www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/user_upload/CAS_Award_-_redacted_-_Semenya_ASA_IAAF.pdf

The New Yorker ran a piece about Semenya in November 2009 that your might find illuminating:

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2009/11/30/eitheror

Ross Tucker at Science of Sport posted at length about all the events in the Semenya case as they unfolded, starting in August 2009, before SA sports authorities put Semenya on the world stage, willfully exposing Semenya to so much painful scrutiny, by entering Semenya in the female category of sports at the World Championships in September 2009. Already by then, SA had exposed Semenya to much unwanted scrutiny and unkind commentary for three years running by entering Semenya in female junior events - and they knew the spotlight, pressure and questions would only be much worse in the Women's World Championships, coz most of the press and the world don't pay much attention to junior events, even elite-level ones. No one familiar with sports science generally or the Semenya case specifically can credibly claim that either Ross Tucker or his website "feed off controversy and tries to pit people against one another."

Also, like you, Tucker "has no interest in referring to (Semenya) as a man," so he can hardly be said to be amongst "the lot of you who call yourselves gender critical" whose discussion you unfortunately find "disgusting."

Here's the page showing the timeline of all the relevant posts, which makes it easier to read them all, and in the same chronological order they were posted:

https://sportsscientists.com/thread/caster-semenya/

[–]MarkTwainiac 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Do you have even the slightest clue of how detrimental and earth shattering a girl or woman finding out she has PAIS or CAIS can be to her?

Yes, many of us do have the slightest clue. I am sorry for the distress these individuals experience, as I am sorry for the difficulties and distress you have experienced due to having Swyer Syndrome. But this is not an experience confined only to those with DSDs. The fact is, a lot of individuals go through and have gone through the earth-shattering experience of finding out we have inherited conditions (and other acquired medical conditions) that make us different to others, and which have or can have myriad negative effects on our health, our life prospects, our ability to pro-create, our sexual functioning and relationships, and our sense of self. Some inherited conditions mean living with severe disabilities and a lifetime of poor health, and some (such as cystic fibrosis, Huntington's disease) mean a great deal of physical suffering and early death, as do many acquired conditions.

But just because some of us have medical conditions that cause, or have caused, us to suffer physical or emotional distress, or both, doesn't give us a pass to participate in a sports category for which we are not eligible.

Also, why in convos about the Semenya case is there so much sympathy for Semenya and others with DSDs, but none for female athletes? Or for girls and women in general? Do you know" how detrimental and earth shattering" it is for girls and women to have to compete in sports against athletes who've gone through male puberty coz they have functioning testicles that produce normal male levels of testosterone and they have male-typical sensitivity to testosterone too?

This is the very mentality that justifies IGM and I am disgusted to see this here.

No one here has justified IGM. No one other than you has mentioned it. If you start a thread about it, I imagine you'd find that many posters are adamantly against it.

Wow, this thread is honestly disgusting

Again, I am sorry for your distress. But I don't think women frankly discussing the facts of the Semenya case is disgusting. People of both sexes - "gender critical" or not - have the right to discuss in full detail all aspects of a landmark legal case that has been used to try to open up the category of female sports to male people with medical issues and "gender identity" claims, thus effectively ending female sports.

The implications of the Semenya case go far beyond sports, because the arguments Team Semenya have used all along a) redefine what it means to be female, and b) say that in sports and all other contexts (such as access to sex-separated spaces and sex specific services, and eligibility for prizes and political positions based on sex) the only thing that matters is a person's legal and social "gender identity" and what his/her ID documents say, not which biological sex he or she is.

The people who've done the greatest harm to Semenya personally - and to people with DSDs - by intentionally lying about Semenya's sex in an attempt to try to make it appear that Semenya has some mysterious medical condition no one can understand, and which makes Semenya neither male nor female - are the South African sports authorities who in 2009 knew full well what Semenya's medical condition is, and understood completely what would happen if they put Semenya on the world stage as a female athlete - and they went ahead and did it anyway.

As Ross Tucker wrote in 2009, Athletics South Africa back then behaved in a "despicable" manner by "effectively playing Russian roulette" with Semenya's life, knowingly exposing the athlete to prying public scrutiny that was bound to be embarrassing and deeply hurtful and distressing. And to make matters worse, the ASA then turned around and castigated anyone who raised questions about ASA's decision to enter Semenya in female competition as not only racist and white supremacist, but as too uninformed about human sex differences and DSDs to have a say about whether someone with a male-only DSD should compete in female sports.

"ASA did the (medical) tests (on Semenya), they knew the problem existed, and they chose to enter her despite this. And then they launched a campaign of aggressive accusation, slander and denial. Among some of the gems we’ve heard was (ASA head) Leonard Chuene labelling entire nations as racist, calling entire universities stupid, and attacking anyone who dared suggest that perhaps ASA had not managed this situation appropriately."

I think Athletics South Africa, all the mass media outlets and all the the TRAs, MRAs and SJWs who've gone along with and perpetuated the Semenya long con are most deserving of ire - not people who've objected to it or who dare to discuss it openly and honestly.

[–]MarkTwainiac 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Caster herself has passed an intrusive female sports genital exam unlike others being accused of this same thing.

What is this "intrusive female sports genital exam" of which you speak? The one no others apparently have ever been subjected to.

The testimony given in the legal proceedings by Semenya, and by others who testified on Semenya's behalf, including Semenya's physician, as well as press reports from September 2009, say that on August 7, 2009 Semenya was seen by a South African gynecologist at the behest of Athletics South Africa, who in turn were acting at the behest of the IAFF. At that time, Semenya's court testimony reveals, the SA gynecologist did (or attempted to do) a standard pelvic exam on Semenya.

By standard pelvic exam I mean the kind of internal examination girls and women routinely get numerous times throughout our lives. Such as when we're being fitted for a diaphragm; getting an IUD; having a cervical/Pap smear, etc; or we have pelvic pain or vaginal discharge and we're being investigated for things like ovarian cysts, fibroids, endometriosis, infections, etc; or we're pregnant and getting our monthly checkup, we're in labour & our cervix needs to be checked to see how dilated it is, we've just given birth & there's a need to make sure the entire placenta has been expelled, or we're being checked 6 weeks after birth to make sure things are back to normal, as is customary.

Semenya's testimony and that of others testifying on Semenya's behalf make no mention of any additional "intrusive female genital exam" being done on Semenya afterwards. Ever. No mention is made that the IAAF further "sex testing" done on Semenya in Europe in the fall of 2009 involved another internal pelvic exam. The only such exam mentioned in the court proceedings is the one done in Pretoria, SA in August, 2009 (which in the court proceedings Semenya complained about as though it were an egregious human rights violation, and as though it was a highly unusual procedure that virtually no other human being has ever undergone).

Males with 5-ARD tend to have external genitals that vary widely. Some are born with micro penises and/or hypospadias. Others appear to have a vulva, and are assumed to therefore have a vagina and female urethra. But in fact, what these individuals with "apparently female genitals" actually have instead are blind shallow skin pouches (usually an inch or less in depth). Often, the urethra empties into the skin pouch, giving the impression that these persons "pee from the vagina." Any trained gynecologist doing an internal pelvic exam on someone with XY 5-ARD would see right off from the start that this person does not have an actual vagina or a female urethra - which in girls & women is entirely separate from the vagina. (Contrary to what Jazz Jennings has claimed many times on TV, women do not pee from our vaginas.)

When examining the internal skin pouch of an XY person with 5-ARD, there's no way a standard gynecological speculum could be employed in the customary way it is with girls and women. I imagine that if the doctor who examined Semenya's genitals in depth tried to insert a speculum, it would have been quite painful to Semenya. And I imagine Semenya was quite embarrassed. But tons of girls and women find pelvic exams painful and embarrassing too! And we have to get these sorts of exams all the time as a matter of course. But when female people get pelvic exams and cervical smears, no one ever says it's a "human rights violation" - and the UN doesn't step in allege that having our "privates" probed is an affront to our "human rights" and "human dignity" (as it did against the IAAF on behalf of Semenya).

Since Semenya's chromosomes are known to be XY, presumably when Semenya was given a workup by the gynecologist in SA in 2009, Semenya also had a standard blood draw taken from the arm or a buccal swab inside the cheek to get genetic material to be sent to a lab for genetic testing. (The genetic mutations responsible for XY 5-ARD were found and genetically mapped in 1992, and by 2009 commercial assays were available.) I'm guessing Semenya probably had blood testing in 2009, coz the physicians would have wanted to get as much information as possible about Semenya's overall health, as they normally do on all patients, but especially elite athletes - and there are many tests that can be run on blood, but not on saliva or skin cells. Such as ferritin and testosterone levels. But whatever methods were used, there's nothing particularly intrusive about getting vials of blood taken from your arm or a cotton swab brushed against the inside of your cheek in a two-second swipe.

Presumably during Semenya's workup in South Africa in 2009, Semenya had some kind of scan or scans as well (probably ultrasound or sonogram, but perhaps MRI or X-rays, or a combo of them). Coz that's the only way it could've been determined that Semenya has undescended testes and no female reproductive organs, which the court proceedings show was indeed determined at that time. Also, back in August 2009 the head of Athletics South Africa indicated Semenya had gotten scans of internal organs when he - very cruelly and callously, IMO - made a public statement that Semenya "doesn't have a womb - who cares?"

Whichever method of scanning was used on Semenya, all are standard, and most people don't consider them particularly "intrusive." The only "intrusive" method would be a vaginal ultrasound, but that method would be an impossibility in the case of someone with XY 5-ARD even if that person has external genitals that appear to be female at first glance. The pelvic skin pouches of some with XY-5ARD that get referred to as "vaginas" are way too shallow to allow for use of a vaginal ultrasound device, and since such skin pouches are not muscular organs like vaginas are, they are not capable of naturally/automatically stretching to accommodate a probe (or speculum - or penis or other penetrator) the way a highly-elastic vagina can.

My guess is that the IAAF/World Athletics probably did their own bloodwork on Semenya, and perhaps their own scans too. In May 2019, when all the press was still erroneously reporting that Semenya and the other DSD athletes in women's sports affected by the new rules pertaining to their testosterone levels were "females with hyperandrogenism," the IAAF/World Athletics released a document stating very clearly that the rules only apply to XY athletes with testes and no ovaries. I doubt the IAAF would have put out this statement if they had not run their own tests. But at the same time, the only tests required to get that info would be standard ones that most people would not consider particularly "intrusive."

However, I've not found any evidence that physicians working for/with/on behalf of the IAAF/World Athletics did an additional internal pelvic exam on Semenya. In the court case, out of respect for Semenya's privacy, everyone on all sides steered very clear of giving details about the exact configuration of Semenya's external genitalia and urethra - which I think was the right thing to do. They simply said they didn't develop in the customary way, so looked different to how most male genitals look - and left it at that. So I dunno what this "intrusive female sports genital exam" that "Caster herself has passed" might have involved, or when it supposedly occurred.

But anyone who is leery of having "intrusive sports exams" that involve having someone else see their genitals would be well advised to steer clear of elite-level international competition. Coz all athletes in elite world sports are subject to the same WADA anti-doping rules that require each and every one of 'em to routinely and regularly give urine samples under the eye of a sports' official - meaning they have to pee in front of an official in such a way that the official can see where the urine is coming from. Serena Williams has to do this. So did Usain Bolt - & everybody else in top-flight sports. It goes with the territory of being a world-class athlete participating in international events.

Is it pleasant for these athletes to have to drop trou and pee in front of a sports official? No, of course not. But they all put up with the momentary indignity for the sake of fairness. Coz fairness is supposed to be one of sports' most fundamental governing principles.

If I've overlooked the evidence that

Caster herself has passed an intrusive female sports genital exam unlike others

I apologize, and I'd appreciate it if you'd tell me what on what page in the CAS decision - or other documents - so I can learn more about it. I've followed the Semenya story and case carefully since 2009, but I'm sure there are aspects I've missed.

[–]Omina_Sentenziosa 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

She's a woman who is likely heartbroken and has to come to terms with her position in sports and the fact that yes, her testosterone production does create an unfair advantage much like a woman taking steroids, as in those who beat her in the past but were disqualified.

If Semenya realizes this, why the fuck are they still trying to push to be included in those categories? Why can' t they accept that they can' t compete in women' s sports and use their visibility to start another league, for example, or simply accept that they can' t compete against other women because it' s unfair?

Do you have even the slightest clue of how detrimental and earth shattering a girl or woman finding out she has PAIS or CAIS can be to her? How suddenly whenever she speaks, despite knowing she was a girl and didn't benefit off male privilege or socialization her peers are going to think of her as a defective male?

Why exactly the feelings of these people should be taken into consideration when it comes to defining their sex? I am sure that many TIMs feel the same when they realize that they are not women or that the people around them don' t see them as women and consider them failed men. Why should their feelings be ignored, but people with CAIS/PAIS' s feelings should be taken into consideration? Just because you feel closer to them? What does male privilege have to do with this anyway?

This is the very mentality that justifies IGM and I am disgusted to see this here.

Yeah, no. The mentality that justifies IGM is that intersex people should conform physically to one sex, forcefully if necessary. Nobody here is saying that, and I am pretty sure nobody here is even thinking it. Nobody here is saying that Semenya should undergo whatever medical procedure sport committees have suggested either, and I frankly think that putting the option out was incredibly gross (I am talking about the commitee). They shold have banned Semenya regardless and move on.

Personally, I do believe that chromosomes should be the base to define sex, because those chromosomes are the ones that give a person their sex to begin with and cannot change. Intersex people suffer from conditions, without that condition, they would have developed as their chromosomes dictate. Regardless of what I think on the matter, no person with functioning testicles is a woman. Semenya is a male with an intersex condition, and as such they should be considered in regards of sport leagues. Not that I believe they didn' t know for decades, but even if they found out yesterday, the right thing to do would have been dropping out and find alternatives, not pushing continuously about being included when, you say it yourself, they agree and understand that they have an unfair advantage.

[–]zephyranthes 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Nobody here is saying that Semenya should undergo whatever medical procedure sport committees have suggested either, and I frankly think that putting the option out was incredibly gross of them.

It's also still unfair to women and girls.

What is "fair" in sports, anyway?

Imagine there's a man who can win 100% of women's sports events, and you have perfect data on the humiliation, torture and medical malpractice that could be inflicted on him and the percentage of events he will win afterward. When will it be "fair"? When it's hormone blockers and 75%? horse piss and 50%? silicone ZZ cups and 25%? barely able to walk after installing a horror tube and 0% but still taking up a woman's spot?

What about other "unfairness"? Like, my lung volume isn't up to snuff, can I dope to compensate? My dad has leg problems, can he drive his car? Can I run against a 4-year-old but backward?

The simple math is that there's no "fair" handicap that a judge can impose on someone who doesn't qualify because the expected effect of said handicap is totally arbitrary. If we're talking fair redistribution in the context of social justice (imagining for a moment it applies to pro sports, which it doesn't), the amount of professional athletic victories the average woman has is close to zero (I don't mean like "three", I mean like 0.00001). If you don't qualify, you don't get to participate, end of discussion.

[–]Omina_Sentenziosa 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If you don't qualify, you don't get to participate, end of discussion.

I agree completely. Semenya shouldn' t be allowed to compete in women' s leagues regardless of what they do to their own body.

The point I was making was that I find it gross that anyone would tell someone to alter their body for sports. I remember a conversation I had in the old debate sub about the legitimacy of breast reductions to play sports. I think if you need to go under the knife to play a sport, you should find another one, not decide for surgery. Similarly, Semenya shouldn' t get this surgery fo a ton of reasons, and they should still be banned from women' s sport regardless of their decision.

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Edit 2: Given the responses to this, I originally was going to respond but deleted my old post but I'm just going to step away from this. This isn't just about sports and if that's all you think it is then you fail to understand the gravity of your actions given how other posters in this thread have been ragging on PAIS-and in connection CAIS, while also others stating that Y = Male. If you fail to see where this is an issue, then there was no point engaging you to begin with and I don't know why I bothered.

But you haven't responded to/engaged with any of the many substantive points I and others have made in response to what you've said. We addressed specific issues you raised, and did so respectfully. Kindness and sympathy for your personal situation and that of other persons with DSDs has been expressed too.

You started out your earlier post by saying this thread is "disgusting," implying the posters - and "the lot of you who call yourselves gender critical" are too. That's a slur. Nobody has called you names. All the name-calling, censorious finger-wagging and attempts to shut down the convo by using shaming, blaming, special pleading and manipulative (and transparent) appeals to emotion, have come from you.

Now as a parting shot you deliberately chose to use a specific slur - ragging - that when used against female people has extremely misogynistic connotations. Employing a term that has historically been used against girls and women to mock and impugn us for menstruating, and to suggest that because we menstruate/have menstruated, then whatever we think and say must be irrational rubbish - well, that's surely a novel and telling way to prove your "womanly" bona fides! It's akin to when Trump responded to being challenged by journalist Megyn Kelly on TV in 2015 by saying "She gets out and she starts asking me all sorts of ridiculous questions. You could see there was blood coming out of her eyes, blood coming out of her wherever. In my opinion, she was off base."

This isn't just about sports and if that's all you think it is then you fail to understand the gravity of your actions...

But no one here thinks is "just about sports" - though even if it was "just about sports" it would still be a important to discuss what's going on. Coz though sports might seem trivial to some, sports are of central, primary importance to a majority of the human race, either as participants or fans. Sports constitutes one of the human race's major endeavors, interests, and industries/businesses. Which is why women fought so hard to get and build sports for our own sex.

As I've explained in one of my earlier responses to you several days ago:

The implications of the Semenya case go far beyond sports, because the arguments Team Semenya have used all along a) redefine what it means to be female, and b) say that in sports and all other contexts (such as access to sex-separated spaces and sex specific services, and eligibility for prizes and political positions based on sex) the only thing that matters is a person's legal and social "gender identity" and what his/her ID documents say, not which biological sex he or she is.

The Semenya case is not just about the issues of people with DSDs, it's about the basic human rights of female people. Female people make up 51% of the human race. And 100% of the human race through the entire course of history were grown in the wombs and came out of the bodies of female persons. The kind you find so "disgusting" for "ragging."

Sorry that you don't like what some of us female people say when we discuss human biology and the realities of our own bodies. But no matter how much you tell us to STFU, we're still going to speak.