Do you think the treatment of natal women and passing trans men are the same, even though the trans men are being perceived as male?

submitted by Genderbender from self.GenderCritical

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[–]Anna_Nym 21 insightful - 1 fun21 insightful - 0 fun22 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

No. Passing trans men will be treated as male. Otherwise, they would be non-passing.

That does not erase their years of female socialization or female biology, however.

I think this is true for passing trans women, too. They will be treated as female. But they will also have been raised and socialized as male and have male biology.

It's why I don't think trans women are men but rather trans women. Likewise, I don't think trans men are women but rather trans men. I think most of the tensions between competing rights can be resolved if we stay grounded in the material reality of what the classed identities are.

[–]Lyssa 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This. This exactly.

[–]lefterfield 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Hard to say, it's a very broad question. If you mean are they treated the same on the street when passing strangers or around casual acquaintances - sure, probably. But they were socialized as female, raised as female, have female bodies and female problems like other females... so I can't imagine that they would ever be treated the same universally, no matter how well they passed. Even if they were a perfect copy of a male, they still have female biology, which no male does.

[–]sisterinsomnia 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I assume you compare natal women and FTM transitioners whom others take for natal men? If so, no, the two groups are not treated the same. I have seen a couple of interviews, read a few personal stories and seen some research data which suggest that trans men get more respect and are listened to when they say something. These are things they themselves noticed as changing. Then some studies (I have no idea how good) found that the average earnings rise for FTM transitioners while they decline for MTF transitioners. That could be the gender gap in wages type of discrimination. The gap, by the way, really is a sex gap.

The cases where the two would be treated the same would be specific situations. For instance, if an employer knows that a trans man can get pregnant, then that trans man will be treated with exactly the same reservations as fertile-age women in general are.

[–]Jalaces 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I didn't knownthat about wages. That does seem to prove that women (or people perceived as women) get paid less. Although I guess it could also be that TiMs are paid less in general, since a lot of places don't want a TiM representing them especially if he's obvious looking, so they have to settle for worse jobs.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Except TIMs can always go in and get the job as a male ( which I know many do esp. in tech) and not have to worry about the wage gap. Women don’t have that luxury even if we cut our hair and present masculine because we would still be seen as women. TIFs on testosterone would probably gain from their recent male privilege because even if their ids said female most people believe that they have lost their ability to bear children, so they become more desirable as an employee.

[–]Lyssa 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well, a TIM/ trans woman with at least breast implants can no longer just "get a job as a male". Historically, transexuals transitioning to a female appearance had in quite a number of cases resort to prostitution not as a kinky choice but because they've been booted out and accepted nowhere else. That now some IT managers cash in six figure saleries and come in as "Stacy" whenever they feel like it and kick out everybody who can't keep track which pronouns to use on which day of the week does not invalidate the very real job discrimination other trans people and next to all past transexuals faced.

But yes, a lot of TiF / trans men report increased wages / promotions / being taken more seriously after passing as male. Hell, even women with certain masculine features experience that. Remember the fake barritone of Elisabeth Holmes? She knew exactly why she was making that huge effort (probably harder than actually finishing your Stanford degree).

[–]valleyoftherogue 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

No man "passes." That is the bottom line. Bone structure doesn't lie.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Not to mention that even if they had boobs they built their careers as men from the start and ride the wave of that privilege even after transitioning. Majority of the white TIMs don’t face prostitution. It’s mostly black men who are TIMs who do and quite honestly it has more to do with them being black than anything.

[–]EnnuiOz 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

My opinion is that if a M transed to a F whilst with their current employer in Tech, they wouldn't experience the same level of discrimination as a woman.

My reasoning behind this is that everyone would be tip toeing around the TIM and not wanting to bring attention to themselves for being potentially trans phobic. There is also a fairly good chance that the TIM had already used his male privilege to get to the promotional position he wanted whilst in 'boymode'.

Women, or TIFs on the other hand, would just look like try hard men. Almost an extreme of 'not like other girls'.