Someone said "let's not just talk about TRA's all the time." Can we finally talk about this? Or are we still too afraid of this, too?

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[–]fuckupaddams 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (13 children)

Like I get your logic but feminine women do exist. I literally would have no consequences for not doing the things I mentioned. My mom isn't a feminine woman and didn't instill it in me, my friends are pretty gender non-conforming and I'm the only "feminine" one, and I don't think I need to forgo wearing a skirt just because of the chance that it might turn a man on. Your version of feminism seems pretty lame. I'm anti porn, critical of sex work, but I'm not anti fashion and femininity. It's literally about choice. Things aren't so black and white, and your version of feminism is gonna push away a lot of feminine women who don't want to be judged for being feminine.

[–]suzyquattrosshoes 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Wear a skirt, wear makeup if you want to - I’m not policing that. I am asking you to question the social context of those actions (more so the makeup tbh).

I’ve been a feminist for YEARS and wore at least some makeup all that time (with the awareness of what it does and is, I mean I didn’t lie to myself about it being a free choice). It took freaking COVID to get me to stop entirely. I might still wear it, if I feel like not wearing it would make life harder in a small but important way (Eg interview).

Collective action matters more than whether someone wears eyeliner, in my opinion, but not everything a woman does is feminist just because a woman does it.

[–]fuckupaddams 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

Can makeup just be neutral? Can men and women just use makeup as an art form, or as an optional beautifying tool, without it being drenched in horrible sexism and patriarchy and homophobia or whatever makeup becomes depending on whoever it's applied to? It's makeup - let whoever wants to wear it wear it, and whoever doesn't, doesn't have to. It's just pigment.

I see your point about feeling like you need it for things like an interview. It shouldn't be that way. But does it being that way automatically make makeup oppressive? The attitudes of men regarding women without makeup needs to change, for sure. But is wearing makeup always a defense against those attitudes of men?

I mean I didn’t lie to myself about it being a free choice

Do you think it could never be a free choice for women to wear makeup? What if she genuinely grew up not being forced to perform femininity (hippie parents for example) but ended up deciding she likes makeup anyway?

[–]suzyquattrosshoes 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Makeup could be neutral in an alternate universe where either a) men in whatever class of work we’re ALSO punished or even fired for not wearing makeup, b) men were actively encouraged to wear makeup at a rate equal to women, or c) no one was particularly targeted by a culture wrt makeup.

Since none of those is true and since actually what happens instead is that girls and women are inundated with images of women being objectified through makeup, in all media, from birth on, and since women are defined in our culture primarily as vehicles of access to sex, and since women are dehumanized on this basis, and since makeup mystifies similarity and justifies dehumanization, even if your mother (and mine fwiw) didn’t wear makeup, yeah no it’s not neutral.

[–]fuckupaddams 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

Here's a question I often wonder. Do we act in terms of the universe we currently live in, or the universe we want to live in? Do we get to the universe we want to live in without doing the latter?

I'm not being rhetorical. In terms of feminism, do we emphasize women as victims (the sad reality thus far) or emphasize women as agents of their own autonomy (the reality we want to see?)

I think healthy feminism acknowledges both. We can't pretend women aren't oppressed and we need to tackle that oppression, but we also won't get out of oppression by only ever framing women as being victims with no agency.

For what it's worth, in my little town of nyc things are shifting just a bit. I am often the only girl at work wearing makeup. At my last job, I'd talk about makeup with my (gay) male coworker who also wore makeup. We need to shift our conversations to include the ways that things are shifting. Sexism is still out there (no shit, I'm a feminist) but the conversation has to be updated sometimes, too.

[–]Anna_Nym 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I agree with you. In my goth days, I wore makeup as a tool of self-expression. Goth makeup was not the culturally acceptable form of makeup for women and women and men both wore heavy makeup. That was back in the day when goths regularly did full face of elaborate design. No one pressured me into it. If there was any pressure, it was away from it because people considered this form of makeup weird and sometimes scary.

This is a completely different context and way of relating to makeup than my mother waking up early to put on a full face of makeup because her career would be penalized if she didn't. I have never worn a full face of makeup to work, although I do occasionally put on mascara to hide looking worn out or sick.

Context matters.

[–]VioletRemi 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

I was wearing goth make up and cloths mostly as form of protest, especially in work spaces, as people were saying I was clothing not appropriatelly and not feminine enough, or that I am not appropriate by being lesbian (I even lost one job for being lesbian, and I was not even coming out, they just saw me kissing woman). So I went full opposite "I will show you how real not appropriate looks".

Plus I was heavily depressed, so depressive music was helping to overcome struggless.

This is a completely different context and way of relating to makeup than my mother waking up early to put on a full face of makeup because her career would be penalized if she didn't.

Reminded me this song for some reason: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pw85IkkdNbw

[–]suzyquattrosshoes 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Wearing makeup = / = having agency.

[–]fuckupaddams 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Okay

[–]OrneryStruggle 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Seems like you are not "gender critical" at all.

[–]fuckupaddams 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Pretty fucked up that your feminism has no room for strong feminine women. Do I have to hate all things girly to be valid? I've outgrown my not like other girls syndrome, and I know I'd support whatever kind of woman you are, why can't you say the same about me?

[–]OrneryStruggle 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Gender criticism inherently rejects the idea of inherent "femininity" and "masculinity" so yeah, I have no room for strong "feminine" women since all femininity is is ritualized submission. That is a basic tenet of gender criticism. You aren't gender critical at all if you believe in pseudo-religious woo like inherent femininity or "strong" femininity i.e. submissiveness.

I just think of myself as having a personality and don't link my personality traits to patriarchal concepts like femininity, you should try it sometime. All women are biologically similar and temperamentally/characteristically unique human beings with their own preferences and traits.

[–]fuckupaddams 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

We're honestly talking about the same thing and just using different words. I in no way think any of the things I mentioned are inherently feminine, I don't think there is any way to exist that is inherently feminine. But when I use that word people tend to know what I mean... I mean we're living at a time where every gendered phrase has like three different definitions to it, just give me a bit of a break. I am usually of the opinion that we need new words to describe this thing besides masculine and feminine. Saying I'm a feminine woman because I like to wear dresses and makeup is sort of counterproductive, I see your point there. Unrhetorically though, what else would you call it? I'm not trying to "gotcha," I'm genuinely curious and have been wondering this myself. When I say "the difference between feminine and masculine women" in regards to sexism, people generally know what I mean even though I'm upholding stereotypes by using those words, and that sucks. Flamboyant? Stoic? I genuinely don't know what adjectives to use that convey the same thing, because especially in regards to sexism it's often important to make distinctions, like "masculine women are respected more than feminine women," for instance, but if I don't want to use those words, what should I use? I'm open to ideas.

[–]OrneryStruggle 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Late but like I said, femininity is ritualized submission. What we consider 'feminine' traits are literally just submissive, socialized traits. There is no such thing as 'good' femininity unless you think women should be oppressed.