Someone said "let's not just talk about TRA's all the time." Can we finally talk about this? Or are we still too afraid of this, too?

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[–]Realwoman 30 insightful - 1 fun30 insightful - 0 fun31 insightful - 1 fun -  (33 children)

You don't have have to ostracize women for wearing them, it's important to accept all people. But you can still criticize the hijab as oppressive, the same way you can criticize high heels as oppressive or sex work as oppressive. You can criticize the misogyny inherent in both Islam as a religion and the cultural practices of different societies.

[–]vitunrotta[S] 21 insightful - 2 fun21 insightful - 1 fun22 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

THIS. A lot of feminists tend to think that by saying "religious people need to have their rights as well" means that the people who criticize certain aspects of (mainly Abrahamic) religions are trying to ostracize the followers of any such religion. Nuh-uh, hun. You grew up in a secular household? Cool for you. Not all of us did, though. A lot you people have zero idea. And - this might be a wild idea for many - criticizing a movement, ideology, religion or other belief is not fucking PHOBIA. It's common sense.

I'd wager that those feminists - which is a pitifully small number nowadays - who speak against any misogynist religion - are not condemning the people in whichever religion. They are questioning, condemning and criticizing the fucking religion itself - and of course those who uphold it (umm, duh, MEN. And yes, also the women who were successfully brainwashed.)

Having grown up in a sect I can honestly say it is NOT a fucking choice and usually going against it means you will be cast out. I would have loved to have someone speak openly against this goddamn sect I grew up in - instead of having y'all copping out by some stupid ass "uGh I diDn'T LivE thAt Live sO I wiLl shut Up hurr durrr" reasons. I was looked down upon, made fun of, ostracized, bullied - by my classmates, teachers, friends, friends' parents... all because of something I never even fucking chose. All because I was a "part of that weird sect." And fucking NOBODY asked if I was doing okay, if things were alright at home, if I needed help. Nobody. So I have my very realistic reasons for condemning people who think "aaw religion!" and then looking away like it's some kind of a cop-out. UGH. It's not.

Nobody chooses to be a hardcore (pick-which-ever-Abrahamic-religion-follower) at the ripe age of fucking ZERO. Nobody.

No. Fucking. Body. It is pure brainwashing and indoctrination since day 1 and it is wrong and harmful and extremely misogynistic pretty much 99.9999% of the time. I am in awe - not the good one, the shit one - when I see my feminist sisters would even try to defend this kind of shit. Take a good look at yourselves and then take another, BETTER look at yourselves and then - maybe then - come and give me a lesson about religious violence. I'm so fucking done.

DONE.

[–]SameOldBS 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm applauding every word of that, vitunrotta

[–]vitunrotta[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Glad you managed to make sense of it, lol. Sometimes writing while upset (...and with my mental condition, which I won't disclose) ends up in incoherent rambles.

[–]Realwoman 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you for this

[–]fuckupaddams 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (28 children)

I'm a feminine feminist and I don't think high heels are oppressive. I also wear makeup. And have done burlesque. That's where choice comes in (because no one's ever pressured me into that stuff (yes really), it's just how I be.) Pushing high heels and femininity in general on woman is oppressive though, of course.

I've been friends with women who wear the hijab. I won't pretend that Islam is a woman-friendly religion because I know it isn't. I don't know if any woman would naturally want to wear one if they weren't told to by their family and religion all their lives. If a woman generally feels more comfortable wearing one, I have no issue with it but I would question why she feels that way. If men have such a hard time with viewing women as sex objects, the response being to cover up the women avoids the root problem. It's like a temporary fix rather than a real solution, then again patriarchy is never concerned with fixing itself.

[–]suzyquattrosshoes 24 insightful - 4 fun24 insightful - 3 fun25 insightful - 4 fun -  (14 children)

That’s amazing, you magically escaped the part of misogynist culture that objectifies women and says heels (which podiatrists universally agree are debilitating) are sexy and completely randomly chose to wear heels and do burlesque

That’s some special magic

Look we have to be willing to look critically at our own practices. You can wear heels and do burlesque but it’s denial and bad faith to pretend you somehow chose to do those things in a cultural vacuum absent of pressure.

Until COVID I wore makeup sometimes. However I was under no illusion that it was a free choice (free of pressure or consequences).

[–]fuckupaddams 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (13 children)

Like I get your logic but feminine women do exist. I literally would have no consequences for not doing the things I mentioned. My mom isn't a feminine woman and didn't instill it in me, my friends are pretty gender non-conforming and I'm the only "feminine" one, and I don't think I need to forgo wearing a skirt just because of the chance that it might turn a man on. Your version of feminism seems pretty lame. I'm anti porn, critical of sex work, but I'm not anti fashion and femininity. It's literally about choice. Things aren't so black and white, and your version of feminism is gonna push away a lot of feminine women who don't want to be judged for being feminine.

[–]suzyquattrosshoes 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Wear a skirt, wear makeup if you want to - I’m not policing that. I am asking you to question the social context of those actions (more so the makeup tbh).

I’ve been a feminist for YEARS and wore at least some makeup all that time (with the awareness of what it does and is, I mean I didn’t lie to myself about it being a free choice). It took freaking COVID to get me to stop entirely. I might still wear it, if I feel like not wearing it would make life harder in a small but important way (Eg interview).

Collective action matters more than whether someone wears eyeliner, in my opinion, but not everything a woman does is feminist just because a woman does it.

[–]fuckupaddams 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

Can makeup just be neutral? Can men and women just use makeup as an art form, or as an optional beautifying tool, without it being drenched in horrible sexism and patriarchy and homophobia or whatever makeup becomes depending on whoever it's applied to? It's makeup - let whoever wants to wear it wear it, and whoever doesn't, doesn't have to. It's just pigment.

I see your point about feeling like you need it for things like an interview. It shouldn't be that way. But does it being that way automatically make makeup oppressive? The attitudes of men regarding women without makeup needs to change, for sure. But is wearing makeup always a defense against those attitudes of men?

I mean I didn’t lie to myself about it being a free choice

Do you think it could never be a free choice for women to wear makeup? What if she genuinely grew up not being forced to perform femininity (hippie parents for example) but ended up deciding she likes makeup anyway?

[–]suzyquattrosshoes 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Makeup could be neutral in an alternate universe where either a) men in whatever class of work we’re ALSO punished or even fired for not wearing makeup, b) men were actively encouraged to wear makeup at a rate equal to women, or c) no one was particularly targeted by a culture wrt makeup.

Since none of those is true and since actually what happens instead is that girls and women are inundated with images of women being objectified through makeup, in all media, from birth on, and since women are defined in our culture primarily as vehicles of access to sex, and since women are dehumanized on this basis, and since makeup mystifies similarity and justifies dehumanization, even if your mother (and mine fwiw) didn’t wear makeup, yeah no it’s not neutral.

[–]fuckupaddams 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

Here's a question I often wonder. Do we act in terms of the universe we currently live in, or the universe we want to live in? Do we get to the universe we want to live in without doing the latter?

I'm not being rhetorical. In terms of feminism, do we emphasize women as victims (the sad reality thus far) or emphasize women as agents of their own autonomy (the reality we want to see?)

I think healthy feminism acknowledges both. We can't pretend women aren't oppressed and we need to tackle that oppression, but we also won't get out of oppression by only ever framing women as being victims with no agency.

For what it's worth, in my little town of nyc things are shifting just a bit. I am often the only girl at work wearing makeup. At my last job, I'd talk about makeup with my (gay) male coworker who also wore makeup. We need to shift our conversations to include the ways that things are shifting. Sexism is still out there (no shit, I'm a feminist) but the conversation has to be updated sometimes, too.

[–]Anna_Nym 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I agree with you. In my goth days, I wore makeup as a tool of self-expression. Goth makeup was not the culturally acceptable form of makeup for women and women and men both wore heavy makeup. That was back in the day when goths regularly did full face of elaborate design. No one pressured me into it. If there was any pressure, it was away from it because people considered this form of makeup weird and sometimes scary.

This is a completely different context and way of relating to makeup than my mother waking up early to put on a full face of makeup because her career would be penalized if she didn't. I have never worn a full face of makeup to work, although I do occasionally put on mascara to hide looking worn out or sick.

Context matters.

[–]VioletRemi 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

I was wearing goth make up and cloths mostly as form of protest, especially in work spaces, as people were saying I was clothing not appropriatelly and not feminine enough, or that I am not appropriate by being lesbian (I even lost one job for being lesbian, and I was not even coming out, they just saw me kissing woman). So I went full opposite "I will show you how real not appropriate looks".

Plus I was heavily depressed, so depressive music was helping to overcome struggless.

This is a completely different context and way of relating to makeup than my mother waking up early to put on a full face of makeup because her career would be penalized if she didn't.

Reminded me this song for some reason: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pw85IkkdNbw

[–]suzyquattrosshoes 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Wearing makeup = / = having agency.

[–]fuckupaddams 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Okay

[–]OrneryStruggle 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Seems like you are not "gender critical" at all.

[–]fuckupaddams 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Pretty fucked up that your feminism has no room for strong feminine women. Do I have to hate all things girly to be valid? I've outgrown my not like other girls syndrome, and I know I'd support whatever kind of woman you are, why can't you say the same about me?

[–]OrneryStruggle 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Gender criticism inherently rejects the idea of inherent "femininity" and "masculinity" so yeah, I have no room for strong "feminine" women since all femininity is is ritualized submission. That is a basic tenet of gender criticism. You aren't gender critical at all if you believe in pseudo-religious woo like inherent femininity or "strong" femininity i.e. submissiveness.

I just think of myself as having a personality and don't link my personality traits to patriarchal concepts like femininity, you should try it sometime. All women are biologically similar and temperamentally/characteristically unique human beings with their own preferences and traits.

[–]fuckupaddams 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

We're honestly talking about the same thing and just using different words. I in no way think any of the things I mentioned are inherently feminine, I don't think there is any way to exist that is inherently feminine. But when I use that word people tend to know what I mean... I mean we're living at a time where every gendered phrase has like three different definitions to it, just give me a bit of a break. I am usually of the opinion that we need new words to describe this thing besides masculine and feminine. Saying I'm a feminine woman because I like to wear dresses and makeup is sort of counterproductive, I see your point there. Unrhetorically though, what else would you call it? I'm not trying to "gotcha," I'm genuinely curious and have been wondering this myself. When I say "the difference between feminine and masculine women" in regards to sexism, people generally know what I mean even though I'm upholding stereotypes by using those words, and that sucks. Flamboyant? Stoic? I genuinely don't know what adjectives to use that convey the same thing, because especially in regards to sexism it's often important to make distinctions, like "masculine women are respected more than feminine women," for instance, but if I don't want to use those words, what should I use? I'm open to ideas.

[–]OrneryStruggle 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Late but like I said, femininity is ritualized submission. What we consider 'feminine' traits are literally just submissive, socialized traits. There is no such thing as 'good' femininity unless you think women should be oppressed.

[–]Realwoman 21 insightful - 2 fun21 insightful - 1 fun22 insightful - 2 fun -  (11 children)

Wow, didn't think I'd see choice feminism on here. Just because you choose something, doesn't mean it's not oppressive. I wear makeup, too, doesn't mean it's a feminist statement.

And high heels are very bad because they're really, really bad for your health, women are ruining their feet, legs and hips for the sake of looking good. Heels are actual oppression because of the health damage they do, I have no idea why so many women deny this. Makeup used today doesn't cause health problems but heels always have and always will. Same thing about tanning - it causes cancer but women are still doing it for some reason.

[–]Anna_Nym 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

"Choice feminism" is a problem because it denies class effects. Talking about one's own personal lived experience and relationship to choices isn't choice feminism. It's sharing life experiences. I think it is an important part of feminism to understand how women navigate that dance between the personal and the general.

I also do think it's important to understand the subjective experience of positive aspects of things that are bad for us. I used to wear high heels because I wanted to be taller. It was straightforward. I generally didn't wear stilettos because they hurt, but when I wore them, I did feel like a bad ass. Of course, the feeling of "bad ass"ness came from media images of the femme fatale. For my generation, the most powerful images of women that we saw were generally also sexy. I think my work as a feminist is to acknowledge that cultural layer and work to critique and change it. But it's also to advocate for shoe companies making better designed heels so that those who want the height boost suffer less to get it. And for what it's worth, platforms never hurt me to wear.

[–]Realwoman 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Platforms are still not good for you. I really wish society cared more about health.

[–]fuckupaddams 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

Alright simply because I've been trying for months to find actual feminist spaces, I'm not going to argue against you because you obviously care about women. I'm not going to be your enemy, I just want to talk about this nuanced issue. When I say I wouldn't experience consequences, I'm talking specifically about me and not every woman. I know for sure that women face consequences for not being "womanly." I'm talking about only my experiences.

I was never expected to perform femininity. Seriously. I grew up in the non glamorous part of NYC where being able to stand up for yourself was much more important than how hot you were, by a non-feminine, nonreligious single mom who never pressured me about how to present myself. I'm the only one of my friends who wears dresses and doesn't have a pixie cut, so no pressure from my peers either. It's "in" right now to be a masculine girl in my circle. In fact I've noticed the boys like non-feminine girls here more. My "tomboy" best friend got much more male attention than I did when we were in school. So no pressure to impress the boys there either (I was/am a goth artsy type so I was always, pretty much by default, dressing for myself. Whoever was into it was into it, I wasn't trying to attract any flies.) I was never told I had to wear this, or couldn't cut my hair short (I've rocked the pixie myself), or needed to look like this because I'm a woman, and can't look like that because I'm not a man. Never. (again, only speaking for me.) Yet all my role models are feminine - I can't help it, I love kickass feminine ladies. I like looking "classy," and I'm the only one around me that has that aesthetic. I don't really rock the androgynous look, nor do I feel that it's me in the slightest.

I know the patriarchy exists but I am the way I am because I am the way I am. I fucking love dresses and skirts and I also kickbox, like metal music and have an almost perfect gpa. About heels - I'm 5'1 so I feel pretty ridiculous wearing flat shoes, because people already mistake me for a teenager because of my face. I wear slightly platformed shoes (not skinny stilettos) because it literally makes me feel like I'm a person and not a toddler. Purely a height thing. If I were a few inches taller I'd wear heels less, perhaps. As it is though it's almost necessary for my self esteem because of my height. When I'm going to a party, I wear heels to go with my outfit. My best friend goes in sneakers. We're both cool people. I'm the feminist, while she doesn't really pay attention to anything political.

I feel for and know the kind of women you're talking about, painstakingly trying to be as hot as they can be for the patriarchy or to please the men around them... it's just, you have to acknowledge the existence that some women just like to dress up for themselves too.

I wear makeup, too, doesn't mean it's a feminist statement.

Can it just be neutral? Can men and women just use makeup as an art form, or as an optional beautifying tool, without it being drenched in horrible sexism and patriarchy and homophobia or whatever makeup becomes depending on whoever it's applied to? It's makeup - let whoever wants to wear it wear it, and whoever doesn't, doesn't have to. It's just pigment.

[–]Realwoman 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Look, I get it. I'm not against makeup. I know many women that never wear any makeup whatsoever, including my mom. My mom has never had any interest in any of that stuff and somehow I grew up to love makeup, jewelry and pretty clothes. I don't think makeup is an important feminist battle because it's mostly harmless. It's not artsy for me, I just wear it to makes myself look better and not hate how I look in photos. I'm well aware that makeup highlights secondary sex characteristics in the face (aside from hiding imperfections).

High heels are different. They're just really bad for you and cause real harm to women. I hate that they're mainstream at all. The long term pain is just not worth it.

[–]NeedMoreCoffee 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (6 children)

I agree with you. I rarely wear make up or heals it can be fun to wear them and if you think its fun to wear you go live your best life!

I have the same issue with shaving. Shaving your legs and arms is supposedly not feminist. Well excuse me, i love soft things to touch and when i shave my legs, they are so soft im rubbing my legs all day and it makes me happy. I have no issues with walking out with hair on my legs, but i shave for my pleasure. Does not make me less of a feminist.

[–]Realwoman 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't know how I feel about that. On one hand, I do shave and shaving is not bad for your health, other than causing some irritation. But I've been a victim of abuse about my body and pubic hair and I will never forget that humiliation. It's disturbing that women are expected to look like what men see in porn and it causes real trauma to girls.

[–]Hard_headed_woman 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

There's nothing that feels better than smooth, shaved legs on fresh sheets, but then I'm hypersensitive and have sensory issues.

[–]NeedMoreCoffee 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

agreed :D

[–]fuckupaddams 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

My boyfriend and I both shave our legs (him more often.) Lol.

[–]NeedMoreCoffee 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

he shaves his legs?? Omg im so jealous I never had a boyfriend do that. That sounds so great when snuggling

[–]fuckupaddams 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

We're out here breaking all the rules. And yes it's great, we're super soft bbs

[–]Sebell 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Feminism isn't "making a choice". It's fighting for the FREEDOM and right to choose. Not the same thing at all!

Feminism is an activist fighting for women to have the choice. You get to choose to wear heels or to not wear them. Maybe you normally do, but don't on a Monday because you're legs ache, after running over the weekend. Great! You have the choice.

In 2016, a woman in Britain was fired for not wearing high heels to work. She wasn't the first, won't be the last. She didn't have the choice not to wear them.