QT: Is there such a thing as a man wants to be a woman? + 10 additional questions

submitted by SnowAssMan from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (82 children)

  1. Sure. A nondisphoric male who doesn’t transition or identify as a woman but wishes he was a woman is possible.

  2. Largely a combination of identity and social interaction.

  3. Because their gender dysphoria is because their gender doesn’t match their sex. There’s nothing contradictory.

  4. They aren’t.

  5. Are they trans or a cross dresser? Because if they aren’t trans there is your answer. Otherwise they are living as a non passing trans woman. A type of woman.

  6. No.

  7. “adult members of the female sex” or you know ci* women and afab trans people.

  8. The question presupposes coopting which I fight thing is what is happening.

  9. No. You aren’t seeking to change attraction or torturing people so it isn’t close to conversion therapy. And it’s awful to imply a connection.

    1 (b) desistance doesn’t cure dysphoria, it’s the result of dysphoria stopping or social pressure being weighted over dysphoria. Something being natural doesn’t make it superior. And because encouraging desistance kills trans people and encourages extreme suffering.

2(b) No. Though it certainly can be tied to transphobic beliefs. For instance if you are attracted to a trans man but consider him a woman the attraction is not transphobic but the belief he is a woman still is.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (81 children)

1- isn't gender incongruence defined as a strong desire to be the opposite sex?

2- what's the difference between men & women though?

3- but you said gender is just identity & social interaction, what has their sex got to do with it?

4- where are the female ones?

5- again, you said being a woman is a matter of "identity & social interaction", if you're not passing as a woman, but passing as a cross-dresser in your social interactions then how are you "living as a woman"?

6- No what?

7- Incoherent & inaccurate since "AFAB people" would include girls & I asked for a WORD for ADULT members of the female sex. The only reason I'm using "adult members of the female sex" for this question is bc if I say women, or female women lol, you'll pretend not to know what I'm talking about.

8- How is making every single-sex term unisex in order to affirm some men's cross-sex role-play not coopting?

9a- hello? transition offers gay kids the opportunity to identify as straight. Transition is literally a synonym of conversion.

9b- If desistance is "dysphoria stopping" & transition doesn't result in desistance then we need to find out what does & do that, instead of transition. I'm sure if former minstrels can survive without blackening up, then male dysphorics can manage without pinkening up.

10- Pretty sure trans-men want to be considered women, hence the 'trans' part. A transgender man is a man who identifies as the opposite sex. Why is it so offensive to be called a man or woman if you don't identify as such when there is no real difference between men & women? If the only difference is identity & social interaction then how can a "belief" that someone is one or the other be transphobic? Surely the reverse is true, if you consider a man a woman purely for embodying stereotypes then that would be a sexist belief, regardless of how committed the man is to his full-time cross-sex cosplay.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (80 children)

  1. No. That’s not how it’s defined. That’s one of several criteria that could meet the test.

  2. They’re people of different genders.

  3. No I didn’t. I said that was largely the difference between men and women. Sex and gender aren’t dependent. But dysphoria comes when sex and gender don’t match.

  4. Offhand the trans man who was charged with rape by deception for using a strap on on the girl he was dating. There’s at least one. Your premise then is false.

  5. You aren’t passing as a cross dresser because cross dressers and trans women aren’t the same thing. They are passing as a natal woman or passing as a trans women. Both types of women.

  6. No is the answer to the question you asked in 6. It’s a complete answer.

  7. It’s fully coherent. You are being obtuse. I said afab trans people and natal women. If you must add adult to afab trans to fill out then so be it. If you say women I don’t know what you mean. Does that include trans men? Trans women? Non-binary people? Women is an incomplete term for what you ask.

  8. Because that’s not what’s happening and not what coopting is.

9a. Comparing transition to literally torturing children into pretending they aren’t attracted to who they are attracted to is inaccurate and wildly insensitive.

9b desistance isn’t dysphoria stopping. It’s cessation of cross gender behavior. That’s what a trans person desisting is. It’s detransition not just no more dysphoria because otherwise transition counts as desistance and you don’t want that. Death is better than living as a man. You don’t agree? Well congrats you aren’t trans.

  1. Well you are wrong. Talk to any trans man ever. They don’t want to be considered women. Oh you mean trans women? Well there’s your problem you are using the wrong definitions of words. Men are disgusting monsters. The idea of being thought of as one of them is viscerally nauseating. I would be less insulted to be dehumanized to “it” than called “he”. Being considered a woman is nice. I feel it’s accurate personally and it is the way I generally seek to interact with people. But it’s not essential. However not being a man is essential. What they are coached to be, how they are meant to act, disgusting. Now the bodily dysphoria was mountains worse than the social for me, but still yet I can’t stomach being thought of as a man or treated like one.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Surely the mere presence of gender is a difference, considering most women do not have a gender identity to speak of.

It’s hardly a commonality between transwomen and women when women typically don’t experience the concept of gender as an internal identity that does not match material reality.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (78 children)

Comparing transition to literally torturing children into pretending they aren’t attracted to who they are attracted to is inaccurate and wildly insensitive.

It seems like the issue is that it doesn't appear torturous because those kids might be very happy to transition, so it looks positive that way the way that LGB affirmation looks, but LGB kids don't undergo the procedures and permanent alterations to their bodies and lives the way that children who undergo transition do, just to be themselves. Given the rate at which kids desist, and looking at how many people detransition, it does seem a bit cruel to assume that these kids won't desist and push them through transitioning.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (77 children)

Detransition Is vanishingly rare and noting irreversible is dibd before adolescence and I have never seen gc cite any statistics on adolescent desistance

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 13 insightful - 3 fun13 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 3 fun -  (29 children)

Suicide is vanishingly rare, so how can it be used to warrant encouraging transition, but detransition can't be used to warrant encouraging desistance?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (28 children)

Suicide attempts absolutely aren’t vanishingly rare.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (27 children)

They are nowhere near the detransition rates, which are between 2-8%. Suicide rates are well-under 1%.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (26 children)

Suicide attempt rates for trans people who can’t access care have been measured at over 40 percent.

And so you have a source in 8 percent detransition? Because I’ve never seen anything over one percent.

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Suicide attempt rates for trans people who can’t access care have been measured at over 40 percent.

Evidence please. And by evidence I mean reports from impartial health authorities and researchers based on substantiated medical records, police reports, ER visits, etc. Not self-reports made by supposedly trans people responding to anonymous online surveys done by campaign groups that put out propaganda like the Williams Institute, HRC, Trevor Project, Mermaids.

And not the anonymous National Transgender Discrimination Survey (NTDS) from 2014 that the much-contested 41% figure originally came from.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

Self-reported, attempted suicide rates (which is 29% among male dysphorics) are not suicide rates. 100% of the sample in the study you are quoting was alive. Those rates go down with age, & are literally exactly the same percentage for LGB people, which makes sense since early-onset dysphorics are almost exclusively male homosexuals.

The suicide rate among male cross-sex role-players is 0.8% https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7317390/?fbclid=IwAR0KyMfRJG50rPKZOId8nhH27eXQJiBr-vX7_LkZ5-k2HtmQF1A9wnUFooA

8% detransition https://transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/usts/USTS-Full-Report-Dec17.pdf

[–]BiologyIsReal 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (41 children)

Teens are given cross-sex hormones and female teens are getting bilateral mastectomies, don't you think that qualify as irreversible? The effect of GnRH agonists (aka "puberty blockers) on children with gender dysphoria is still largely unknown and what we do know is not encouraging. Detransition is an area that needs more research, but trans activists will do as much as possible to ban any research on this topic, along anything else that question the official narrative. Is detransition is so rare, why are QT is so afraid that people research it?

A Follow-Up Study of Boys With Gender Identity Disorder

Detransition-Related Needs and Support: A Cross-Sectional Online Survey

Psychotherapist blocked from studying ‘trans regret’ takes case to the European Court

Scottish doctors approved breast removal for 51 trans teenagers

Chest Reconstruction and Chest Dysphoria in Transmasculine Minors and Young Adults

Eligible youth were 13 to 25 years old, had been assigned female at birth, and had an identified gender as something other than female. Recruitment occurred during clinical visits and via telephone between June 2016 and December 2016. Surveys were collected from participants who had undergone chest surgery at the time of survey collection and an equal number of youth who had not undergone surgery.

2 participants in this survey had a bilacteral mastectomy at age 13, 5 had one at age 14, 9 at age 15, 9 at age 16, and 8 at age 17.

AAP 'Silencing Debate' on Gender Dysphoria, Says Doctor Group

Evidence for puberty blockers use very low, says NICE

All Six of Sweden's Pediatric Clinics Meet to Discuss a Cautious Stance Toward Pediatric Gender Transitions

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (40 children)

Again. I’ve never seen statistics on teens. The studies you all always point to are on preadolescent children who have weaker identities than adolescents. Hormones aren’t being introduced until mid to late teens at the earliest. There’s a difference between an 8 year old and a 16 year old when you are talking about identity and autonomy.

No one is objecting to an ethical demographic study on detransition. Or denying it’s a thing that happens. But it is a tiny percentage of people who transition. Anecdotally I helped organize a trans support group. I have met literally hundreds of trans people. I know of exactly 1 who detransitioned. Who it’s worth noting is still trans supportive and pro access to transition care.

Like I’m not even for transition before 16 but the evidence you are citing doesn’t actually support your assertions.

[–]MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I think an issue here is the imprecise wording (and sometimes indecipherable spelling) of your posts, which often make it hard to figure out exactly what you are saying and what info you're asking for. Such as this statement of yours a couple of posts up:

Detransition Is vanishingly rare and noting irreversible is dibd before adolescence and I have never seen gc cite any statistics on adolescent desistance

When you say you've "never seen GC cite any statistics on adolescent desistance," do you mean stats regarding persons who had childhood GD (onset well before puberty) and who desisted during adolescence? Or do you mean persons who developed GD during or just prior to adolescence, and who desisted at a later stage of adolescence?

I believe GC has provided many sources showing that the vast majority of kids with childhood GD desist during the course of adolescence.

But it might be that you and other posters here are using the word "adolescent" to mean different things. Could you say what you mean exactly so to eliminate further confusion?

Finally, is "dibd" a typo or an acronym for some new gender term? Genuine question- it's not clear to me.

You say that

Hormones aren’t being introduced until mid to late teens at the earliest.

Again, please state what you mean by "mid to late teens." There are 7 different, long years between 13 and 19; it's best to be specific.

My impression is that you think adolescence = teens, or is roughly equivalent to the teenage years. When, in fact, adolescence usually starts well before the teen years. Puberty is only precocious if it starts before 8 in girls, and before 9 in boys. Most girls start developing breasts and begin menstruating well before they turn 13, often several years before. Similarly, most boys begin experiencing wet dreams and genital changes and growth, and engage in masturbation resulting in orgasm, well before they turn 13 too.

If my impression that you're conflating being an adolescent with being a teen is incorrect, I apologize ahead of time.

Another issue adding to the confusion here is that is that puberty/adolescence unfolds very differently in children depending on sex - and thus boys and girls of the exact same age are often at very different stages of adolescence. Not only do different processes occur in female and male bodies during puberty and the rest of adolescence , but these phases of development occur at a different pace in the two sexes, and where common events occur - such as the growth spurt that leads to adult height, adult shape and increased bone density - the sequence is different depending on children's sex. For example, girls go through our big skeletal growth spurt at the beginning-middle of puberty and usually achieve our adult height by 14, whereas boys do so towards the end of puberty or even during adolescence after puberty is over, achieving their adult height at or after 16. Though this varies in individuals. For example, I reached my adult height at 12, but my brother didn't reach his until 17.

But however you personally define what you mean when you speak of "the mid-late teens" and "adolescents," it remains the case that your claim that "Hormones aren’t being introduced until mid to late teens at the earliest," is simply not true. Nowadays, and for a number of years now, kids with gender dysphoria are indeed being placed on "hormones" in their early teens, and some before their teens even start.

A paper published in 2019 by Johanna Olson-Kennedy MD et al reported on a study funded by USA's NIH that began in 2016 that attempted to assess the impact of early medical interventions on "transgender youth." It says:

Regarding age, the minimum age in the inclusion criteria for the gender-affirming hormone cohort was decreased from 13 years (as stated in the original grant proposal) to 8 years in order to ensure that potential participants who might be eligible for hormones based on their Tanner stage would not be excluded due to age alone. Additionally, considerations were made for youth who were found to have very low bone density in the screening, which occurs with youths initiating blockers. Only 7 youths under the age of 13 years at the time of enrollment were enrolled into the cross-sex hormone cohort.[ "only 7" - WTF?]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6647755/

Another study published in 2018 by Olson-Kennedy et al of 59 patients who presented for treatment at a youth gender clinic from 2011-13 and received "hormone therapy" states that the youths

ranged in age from 12 to 23 years at initiation of [exogenous estrogen or testosterone] therapy, with a mean age of 18 years. Thirteen (22%) youth started [cross-sex] hormones younger than age 16 years.

Transfeminine youth were started on hormone protocols that usually included a testosterone blocking agent and feminizing medications. Spironolactone (100–200 mg orally per day) or a GnRH analog was used for testosterone blocking and induction of feminizing features with 17 β estradiol, and in some cases, the addition of progesterone. At the time of this study, spironolactone and GnRH analogs were not covered by most insurance plans; therefore, seven (28%) of these youth did not have their endogenous testosterone blocked specifically in the first two years of treatment. One transfeminine young person was on GnRH analogs since early puberty. Eighteen participants used an escalating dose of oral estradiol ranging from 1 to 6 mg each day; four switched to injectable estradiol over the course of treatment, and one was off of hormones at the follow-up visit. Six participants initially started, and continued using injectable estradiol at doses ranging from 20 to 30 mg delivered intramuscularly every 14 days.

Transmasculine youth were all treated with testosterone cypionate via subcutaneous delivery at escalating doses ranging from 12.5 mg to 75 mg weekly. At follow-up, most youth were at a dose of 50–75 mg weekly. Two transmasculine youth were on simultaneous GnRH analogs that were started earlier in adolescence. Doses for both cohorts were adjusted based on clinical response and circulating levels of sex steroids.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7050572/

Jazz Jennings started both "puberty blockers" and exogenous estrogen when Jazz was 11. Since Jazz turns 21 in a few days, that was a decade ago.

Jackie Green of the UK, child of Mermaids' CEO Susie Green, started both "puberty blockers" and exogenous estrogen at 12. Jackie is now 30, so that was 18 years ago, in 2003.

Helen Webberley the UK physician who operates Gender GP, an unlicensed online clinic, has been prescribing cross-sex hormones to children as young as 12 for at least several years now. This first came out in the investigations in 2018 that followed the suicide of one of Webberley's teenage female patients for whom Webberley prescribed testosterone, and more info about other patients has come out in the formal proceedings against Webberley by medical licensing authorities that have been held over the past couple of months.

Trinity Neal, the first child in the US state of Delaware to undergo "childhood gender transition" paid for by Medicaid, started exogenous estrogen in 2016 when Trinity was 13 and at 16 became "one of the youngest people" to undergo surgery to remove Trinity's testicles and reconfigure Trinity's genitals in "gender affirming" fashion.

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/transgender-teen-trinity-neal-pictured-with-her-mother-news-photo/1190172556

Speaking of surgery, an intervention that is not reversible, another study by Olson-Kennedy et al published in 2018 showed that girls in the US as young as 13 are being given double mastectomies for gender dysphoria. In the sample studied, 49% of those who had double mastectomy for GD and "chest dysphoria" were younger than 18 years at the time their breasts were removed.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/2674039

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

I’m referring to adolescence in the social sense as in the life stage between childhood and adulthood, not simply the onset of puberty.

I think Jazz was given estrogen too early though I would have supported blockers. But still yet. The studies on desistance rates gc likes to tout is on 8 year olds. It’s not sound to protect that onto someone who is during their teenage years expressing that they are trans. It’s an unsupported comparison.

[–]MarkTwainiac 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Thanks for answering. But I still am not clear on what you mean. You think adolescence is simply a social stage? Not one when development of myriad kinds occurs - physical, sexual, social, psychological, cognitive?

Also, I wasn't talking about onset of puberty. I was talking about puberty as a multi-year developmental process and pointing out that puberty and adolescence are not the same, nor does adolescence mean the teen years. Whereas in my reading of your posts, you seem to use these terms loosely and interchangeably.

When puberty begins, adolescence begins - but adolescence continues after puberty is finished. Similarly, by the time a person becomes a teenager, puberty is usually well underway and sometimes mostly over - depending on the person's sex and individual developmental clock. My point was that in these convos about boys and girls growing up, the different stages of development and life phases - childhood, puberty, adolescence, teens, early adulthood, adulthood, etc - need to be spoken of very precisely. Whereas no offense, you seem to speak of these matters loosely and in ways that IMO are confusing and hard for others to follow.

The studies on desistance rates gc likes to tout is on 8 year olds.

Can you link to these studies that GC supposedly uses, or at least give the authors' names, so I can look them up? I have no idea what studies you mean - and I'm someone who's definitely GC who's been looking into this area for many years now.

It’s not sound to protect that onto someone who is during their teenage years expressing that they are trans. It’s an unsupported comparison.

So does this mean your focus really is on, and all along you have been speaking of, persons who develop(ed) GD solely in their teenage years - meaning they have adolescent-onset GD begun after puberty has started, not childhood GD? Coz that's how it comes across, and that's what I've been trying to get you to clarify.

I agree with you 100% that childhood GD is entirely different to adolescent-onset and adult-onset GD. But GC is not the group that's been trying to obscure the distinctions between those with childhood-onset GD and those with GD that develops in adolescence or adulthood. The people who are projecting are the adults, usually males, who say that because they and other adult males who are trans now wish they didn't undergo some of masculinization of appearance that occurs as a result of male puberty and adolescence, then kids with childhood GD should have their puberties blocked so they don't develop those characteristics themselves.

The QT and pro-trans adults are also the ones who have come up with the harmful myth of being "born in the wrong body," a narrative they not only project onto the stories of their own pasts and the pasts of other adults who now identify as trans, but which they foist upon - and tell to - little kids with childhood GD too.

The GC side are the ones who warn against "unsupported comparison(s)" in these convos. Such as the unsupported comparison between adolescent and adult males with AGP and teenage girls with ROGD. And the unsupported comparison between the discrimination and abuse that some males go through growing up and in adulthood because others see them as "sissies" and suspect them of being gay and the discrimination and abuse that females experience because of our sexed bodies and the misogyny and sexism we face. And the unsupported comparison between what happened in the childhoods and adolescence of adults who grew up and matured many years or even decades ago and what's gone on, or is going on, in the childhoods and adolescence of young people today or in recent years.

The child abuse and human rights violations done to youngsters like Jazz Jennings, Trinity Neal, Kai Shappley, Mack Beggs and all the young girls getting their breasts amputated in the name of "gender affirmation" nowadays haven't come about because of GC people projecting our issues onto kids, or us making unsupported comparisons. It's because adult genderists have done and are doing that.

[–]BiologyIsReal 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (34 children)

So, you'd rather hide your head in the sand and keep repeating the same lies about how no irreversible procedures are being given to minors? Do you think all the evidence to the contrary will vanish by just saying this doesn't happen? If you are going to tell me my assertions are baseless, then justify your claims.

I can't produce research that hasn't been done. It's only recently that teenagers whose gender dysporia began at adolescense have been going to gender clinics for "transition". The change in the sex ratio where female patients are outnumbering male ones, that trans activists are keen on not looking for an explanation, is also a new fenomenon. It's also new that children and teenagers who identify as "trans" are being cheering on their cross-sex identitiies not only by the medical and psychological establishment, but also the Media and schools. There is anecdotical evidence by detransitioners that suggest they don't often don't go back to their doctors. As I said, desistence and detransition is an area that needs more research, but transactivists are trying their best to not allow it.

It's unbeliable you had the nerve that no one is objecting to study detransition when I showed you the case of a psychotherapist who is going to court about this very issue. What exactly is unethical about what he was trying to research? How is this more unethical than chemically castrating children? Why are you all so scared of people researching this topic if you all are so secure on your own chosen "identities" as you all claim? And what about the AAP not wanting to allow the debate on the treatment of trans identified minors? Again, what are you all so afraid of?

And what about this paper I linked, very much pro-"transition" for minors and using ofuscating "inclusive language", which outright admitted that females who identify as "trans" have gotten their breast removed as young as 13 years old? What have you to say about it? Are you going to try to dismiss it as "transphobic" propaganda? And what about the girls in Scotland that were aprroved for the same surgery? Are you going to ignore it too?

What have you to say about Finland and Sweden reversing course when in comes to "transition" of minors? What have you to say about even one of the authors of the Dutch protocol admitting that this is being applied for a population that it was not designed for? What have you to say that in spite of GnRH agonists being sold as a "pause button", virtually all children progress to cross-sex hormones? Tavistock's own data support this, you know? Are you going to argue the doctors have gotten very good on detecting who is a "true trans" at the same time when it's became "transphobic" to question someone's identity in any way?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (33 children)

I’m not hiding my head in the sand I’m just not acknowledging your obvious sleight of hand comparing stats on 8 year olds to try to justify denying care to teens twice that age. Puberty blockers are reversible so don’t pretend that Is some grand permanent treatment.

Trans people aren’t new. People being able to access care early enough to prevent the wrong puberty ruining their bodies is a good thing.

No one is objecting to fair demographic studies. But that’s not what is being done. If someone wanted to contact detransitioners without culling from anti trans sites (like that laughable rogd “study”) to ask about why they transitioned , why they detransitioned, and what services they need, literally no trans person would care. That researcher was blocked by the university not any kind of trans action. A business engaging in conservative oversight is hardly our responsibility.

That aap article is about one organization not a general research topic. No one cares about fair research. But we do object to blatant anti trans agenda groups funding bad studies.

That study you linked shows a trend toward effective reduction in dysphoria with top surgery and self reported regret was near zero. Hardly a ringing endorsement for your side.

And that article on the Scottish group was specifically 16 and 17 year olds. They are mature enough to have bodily autonomy and know who they are as far as I’m concerned. And again you still haven’t shown me data suggesting large desistance rates from 16 and 17 year olds who are dysphoric.

The Swedish group seems to be a pause until administrative guidance. The Finnish change I don’t really have any thoughts on. Surgery before 18 doesn’t seem particularly dire. Moving away from puberty blockers is going to hurt a lot of trans kids probably but it’s not the end of the world.

What have you to say that in spite of GnRH agonists being sold as a "pause button", virtually all children progress to cross-sex hormones? Tavistock's own data support this, you know?

Seems like they are working to help prevent the wrong puberty in those that need it who then get the right one? What’s your point here? If most who get paused eventually go on hormones that’s evidence it’s being applied to people who decide to transition. That’s a mark in favor.

[–]BiologyIsReal 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (32 children)

I said you're hiding your head in the sand because that is exactly all what you've been doing: trying to twist my points to suit your position and ignoring the unconvenient parts that you don't know how to misrepresent. Just like you keep not adressing the evidence that 13 years old girls have gotten their breasts amputated, which is something irreversible being done to teens, exactly what you claimed it didn't happen. And speaking of harmful practices trans identified girls are encouraged to do, I forgot to mention the horros of breast binding. But of course, you don't give a dam about what happen to young trans identified females, just like you don't give a dam about women being told to use de-humanizing "inclusive" terms to talk about themselves and female anatomy, or how women are being harmed because of males claiming to be "women" are invading (formerly) women-only spaces like bathrooms, refuges, sports, hospital wards, prissons, etcetera. Just like you don't give a dam about TRA policies distorting statistics and lying about women getting more violent. Just like you don't give a dam about dissenting women receiving death and rape threats, being smeared, getting fired, or getting physically assaulted for stating the obvious fact that men are not and will never be women regardless of how many hormones they take, or how many surgeries they undergone, or how many sexist stereotypes they try to live up to.

You call yourself a "woman", yet you have zero sympathy for actual women. We're nothing more than human shields for you. Let's be real, deep down you likely know that you will never been anything but what you hate the most. Why else, do you throw a tantrum every time people refuse to play along with the obvious lies about who you are? You need to be honest with yourself and learn to be comfortable on your own skin rather than live vicariously through trans identified children and teens.

Nobody goes through the wrong puberty as nobody is born in the wrong body. Who does enjoy puberty, anyway? Do you think that being unconfortable with your changing body is an exclusive experience of trans identified people? I wasn't exactly happy when my breasts started to develope or when I got my first periods or when I was told I have to shave because I was a girl. Was I a "trans boy" or "non-binary person" or whatever else? I mean, I don't wear dresses or make-up, so I must not be a woman, right? That is the obvious conclusion if I were to follow QT logic, right?

Listen, gonadotrophin-releasing hormone (GnRH) analogues, more commonly known as "puberty blockers" are NOT reversible. Anyone who knows something about pharmacology would recognize the phrase of them being "reversible" as the red flag that it is. No drug is reversible, that is why you need to weight the benefits and the risks of using them. Why do you think in literally any other area of medicine self-medication is frowned upon? TRA's only basis to say they are "reversible" is by extrapolating from their use in the treatment of central precocious puberty. However, central precocious puberty and gender dysphoria are very different conditions and GnRH agonists are used for different reasons in them. In the former, the aim to dealy the kid's puberty until the typical onset of puberty. Meanwhile, in the latter, children whose puberty started at typical ages are getting their sex hormones shut down to made "passing" easier.

But the human body is too complex to be able to stop the clock as if were nothing. Sex hormones are important for developing bones and brains. Even if their secretion is later resumed, we can't be sure on the impact of temporaly shutting them down. Moreover, we can't know the sociopsychological impact of teens, who are likely uncorfortable with their bodies, being kept in a child-like state while all their peers are growing up normally. Why wouldn't they jump on taking exogenous hormones, especially when everyone is cheering them on being, or being able to become, the opposite sex? Keira Bell's treatment started at 16 years old and undergone a bilateral mastectomy at 20 years old. Yet she later regreted all of this. How can you say children and teens are mature enough to consent to any of this? How can they consent when they are being groomed by adult activists that tell them their only options are "transition" or suicide? How can they consent when they are not told the actual risks and doctors employ anatomical unaccurate terms like "male chest reconstruction", "neovagina", "sex assigned at birth", "front hole" or "transition"? Especially when many doctors are keen on ignoring the skyrocketing increase on cases, the change on the sex ratios in favour of teen girls, the many co-morbities that many of the patients have, or the increasing numbers of de-transitioners? Not to mention the obvious question: why are trans identified people are offered hormones and surgeries to "transition", but no one thinks on giving anorexic patients a liposuction?

And you have the nerve to complaining that I or others can't provide you with the data you ask for when it's trans activists who are doing the very best not to allow any debate or research that may contradicts their dogmas? It's trans activists who don't want people researching detransition or recent changes in the demographis of young patients with gender dysphoria. It's transactivists who seek to punish anyone raising safeguarding concerns or just get a more a cautios position. All of this under excuse that it's anti-"trans" propaganda. What a joke! Anything it's "transphobic" for you all, starting with reality itself.

You all would rather support doctors who can't keep basic patient's data or disregard any safeguarding. You all would rather support people who try to ban alternative treatments for gender dysphoria through bad science. You all would rather keep denying the importance of sex even if get's your life in danger. You all would rather support an English proffessor who advocate for stealing and burning a book he doesn't like. You all would rather support the lawyers who advice you to keep your goals secret. You all would rather support the lawyers who don't want people to know how many trans identified males there are in the female state.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Reddit has a lot of problems, but this is a really interesting, well-compiled database of desistance, detransition and puberty-blocker effect studies: https://www.reddit.com/r/detrans/wiki/studies

I've been going through it this evening as it's pretty new to me too, and one of the best studies where I could see the statistics is a follow-up study from 2008 of girls with GID: https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2007-19851-005

This study provided information on the natural histories of 25 girls with gender identity disorder (GID). Standardized assessment data in childhood (mean age, 8.88 years; range, 3-12 years) and at follow-up (mean age, 23.24 years; range, 15-36 years) were used to evaluate gender identity and sexual orientation. At the assessment in childhood, 60% of the girls met the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders criteria for GID, and 40% were subthreshold for the diagnosis. At follow-up, 3 participants (12%) were judged to have GID or gender dysphoria

I'm actually still going through it all, but I'll bring up better/more links. The synopsis of each study in that database is quite helpful and succinct, though.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

That’s actually in line with my point. No one is getting treatment at 8 so whether they desist is pretty much irrelevant. The relevant statistics would be desistance from adolescence to adulthood. And I’ve never seen anyone produce data on that.

[–]MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

But the study that Fleurista linked to shows that all but 3 of the 25 girls - or 88% - diagnosed with childhood GID had desisted when seen at follow-up, at which point they ranged in age from 15-36 years old. So it very clearly shows, as other studies on boys do, that the vast majority of kids diagnosed with childhood GID in the past (what today would be called childhood GD) grew out of it as they went through adolescence and approached/entered adulthood - if, that is, they were allowed to just be, their opposite-sex gender identity was not affirmed but also not condemned or shamed, they weren't "socially transitioned," and their natural body and brain development was not impeded/interfered with by administration of the development-blocking drugs and exogenous cross-sex hormones in wide use for such kids today.

Again, there's confusion here because you seem to be lumping together childhood-onset GID/GD with adolescent-onset GID/GD. When the reality is that childhood-onset and adolescent-onset GID/GD are very different to one another even when they occur in the same sex, and when they occur in males and females adolescent-onset GID/GD are two completely, entirely, utterly different phenomena.

Moreover, a paper published in 2008 like the one Fleurista cited is unfortunately no longer relevant to what's going on now, or has been going on in recent years. At the time that study was completed, the subjects were 15-36, meaning they'd now range in age from 29 to 50. Born from 1971 to/through 1992, these girls/women are of entirely different generations and grew up in totally different worlds than today's "trans kids" and young adults. When they were growing up, it's true as you say that no one was getting medical interventions at 8 - or at 12, either. But since that study was done, there's been a sea change. Nowadays as in the past 5-10 years, kids are indeed being given blockers and CSH as young as 8, and girls are getting surgeries to remove their breasts as young as 13 (and now 12 in some cases).

The other thing is, at the time the girls in that study were assessed and diagnosed with GID, they had a mean age of 8.88 years, but an actual age range, 3-12 years. Which IMO means they should NOT have been lumped together as one group and all assumed to have childhood GID. Fact is, girls age 9-12 are usually entering or well into adolescence. It's common for girls begin to breast development at 9-10, and many have large breasts by 11-12. Same goes for periods, which many girls get at 10-11. For example, I got mine shortly after I turned 11 - which was completely normal. A girl of 3-8 who says she wants to be a boy will almost always be doing so for very, very different reasons than a girl of 9-12.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

But the study that Fleurista linked to shows that all but 3 of the 25 girls - or 88% - diagnosed with childhood GID had desisted when seen at follow-up, at which point they ranged in age from 15-36 years old.

My point is that’s not the relevant statistic. Childhood desistance doesn’t demonstrate that adolescent dysphorics will desist in any number. And since that’s when anything not simply reversible is even on the table.

I would argue that social transition would at least potentially be useful regardless as an exploratory measure for the dysphoric person. If living as you wish doesn’t help you know that isn’t your solution.

I’m not referring to onset time. I’m saying they haven’t produced anything on desistance rates for adolescents who are dysphoric whether it’s new or old at that time. And that’s the relevant data that is needed for this discussion.

[–]MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You're continuing to conflate different terms and groups, posting in what appears to be an intentionally confusing way. My hunch is that this is to cover up the fact that you really don't have much to contribute to the convo except complaints about the info you say others haven't provided - and gripes about research you whinge that others haven't done, in part because activists and ideologues on your side would scream bloody murder if they tried.

The study Fleurista linked to is about females who had been assessed between ages 3-12 and diagnosed at that time with what clinicians called childhood GID/GD, and who desisted later on during adolescence. You say this is "not the relevant statistic" - but that's because the only group you seem to think matters in the debate over youth with gender issues are males who develop GD during adolescence (and adulthood too?). Then you say

Childhood desistance doesn’t demonstrate that adolescent dysphorics will desist in any number.

When, LOL, the study at issue was not about "childhood desistance." It was about desistance in adolescence, FFS. Then you say

And since that’s [adolescence] when anything not simply reversible is even on the table.

WTF? How can you make such a claim after you've just been given ample evidence by me and others that children of both sexes are being put on medications (development blockers and CSH) that have irreversible effects as young as 8, and that girls are getting their breasts amputated as young as 13. Once a girl has her breasts cut off, there's no way to get them back. That's the definition of irreversible.

Also, when children are put on development blockers at 11-12 like Jazz, Jackie and Trinity, then they go on to take CSH, their gonads never mature, so these children end up sterile. Irreversibly sterile.

Since you seem only to care about males, then it should be of interest to you that the use of development blockers starting at 11-12 in males like Jackie, Jazz and Trinity, followed by CSH, left them with the penises and testicles of little boys - and with undeveloped sexual function and capacity too. This means impaired or no ability to orgasm (and in the case of Jazz, no sexual function, ability to orgasm or any libido either) AND it meant they didn't have enough penile and scrotal skin to use customary techniques when they had their "gender affirming" genital surgeries at age 16 (in Jackie's and Trinity's cases), and at 17 in Jazz's. Not having enough material to work with means these young males had to have surgeries using tissues from other parts of the body, which in the case of Jazz we know didn't turn out well. How this is supposed to help these young males "pass" better is beyond me.

As for young people who develop GD during adolescence, I agree more research is needed. But again, these kids are not a monolith, and they are developing adolescent GD for very different reasons. The females are generally fleeing from sexual objectification, whilst the males are generally pursuing what the females are running from. A lot of females who develop GD in adolescence do seem to desist from it later in adolescence or in early adulthood. But in males, adolescent-onset GD is a thornier problem that might well turn out to be more permanent because in males, adolescent GD is usually caused by AGP - and AGP is driven by two incredibly powerful forces: the human male sex drive and narcissism. Moreover, when indulged instead of being treated in other ways, AGP seems to be a progressive disorder that overtakes the lives of those who develop it.