Both: In light of recent events. In what context is Voyeurism and Indecent Exposure acceptable? Is there a rational justification for making an exception for males who claim to be women?

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[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (105 children)

You said that the reason they didn’t want to use men’s spaces was perversion of being uncomfortable around men’s bodies. That is a false dichotomy leaving out the actual reason which is safety.

I also don’t agree that men in general are dangerous to TW.

This is just wrong. Men are responsible for basically all the physical harm to trans women. I don’t feel safe alone with a cis man ever and no smart trans woman does. They hurt us. It’s not even a question.

You can want to use female spaces all you want and for whatever reasons you want- it’s still undermining female rights and robbing them of their safe spaces.

If that’s your point, say that don’t deny our safety concerns and call us perverts. Just say “our comfort is more important than your safety”. That’s what you are saying so just say it.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (61 children)

No no no- I said they don’t feel comfortable in male spaces, and I acknowledged that there are some creeps who just want to be in female spaces (hence the “could be” in my comment). I’m saying it’s both, and we don’t know who’s who until someone behaves inappropriately.

Some of you are perverts. Some of us are, too. That’s life, buddy.

And yeah, I think the rights, comfort and safety of females should be prioritized over any and all males in any female specific space. Because that’s the point of female specific spaces.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (60 children)

Not being comfortable and not being safe aren’t the same thing. We aren’t safe in men’s spaces. That’s why we don’t go there. If I went into a men’s locker room I legitimately might be killed. That’s the point.

[–][deleted] 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (34 children)

Statistically you’re less likely to be murdered by men than the women you’re lecturing about safety. Statistically, you as a transwomen are more likely to murder someone than be murdered yourself. No one here believes your victim narrative except yourself.

[–]adungitit 4 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

Uh, are we really going to act like feminine men being threatened and bullied by other men is a hard pill to swallow?

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Uh, no?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 10 fun1 insightful - 9 fun2 insightful - 10 fun -  (31 children)

Statistically, you as a transwomen are more likely to murder someone than be murdered yourself.

This is wildly untrue and you should be ashamed.

[–][deleted] 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (28 children)

🙄

Transwomen have a male pattern of criminality and a lower murder rate than the general population. The cats out of the bag.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 9 fun1 insightful - 8 fun2 insightful - 9 fun -  (27 children)

No.

[–][deleted] 13 insightful - 3 fun13 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 3 fun -  (26 children)

You know what, you’re right. I thought the data was convincing, but you’ve totally changed my mind with your imagination, wishful thinking, and declarative statements.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 8 fun2 insightful - 7 fun3 insightful - 8 fun -  (25 children)

The data isn’t convincing. You just want to pretend you have statistics to support your bigotry.

[–][deleted] 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (24 children)

I guess I hallucinated the data 1 2. Not again! I really need to get the carbon monoxide levels checked in my house.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It’s actually quite easy to verify.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Figures then, please. I’d like the stats you have backing up your accusation.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (24 children)

So don’t go into male spaces, if you don’t want to. Doesn’t mean it’s okay to disrupt female spaces.

Who are you to tell women and girls that a male presence in a space that is not supposed to have any males in it is safe? You don’t get to decide for us if we feel safe or not, but it’s not just about safety. You’re infringing on our rights.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 7 fun2 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 7 fun -  (23 children)

So don’t go into male spaces, if you don’t want to.

My point was literally to get you to acknowledge it’s about safety not your false dichotomy.

As you well know I prefer neutral spaces and don’t use women’s spaces at all other than bathrooms. Not because I think I shouldn’t be able to, I just don’t want to make anyone uncomfortable.

So okay. I have to build gym days around going home after, can’t go to a spa, can’t ever use a public pool (other than maybe at hotels) can’t try on clothes, a bunch of other stuff. But fact of the matter is we are left to choose between physical danger, making people uncomfortable, or missing out in large sections of public life. Can you at least see how awful it is we have no good choice?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

It’s not always about safety. It’s just not. For some yes, in some circumstances, yes. But let’s not pretend that there are no transwomen who do it because of discomfort or out of entitlement.

“So okay. I have to build gym days around going home after,”

Oh no, you have to put a bit of effort into your scheduling so you don’t disrupt someone else’s rights or cause discomfort. Poor baby. How you suffer.

“can’t go to a spa,”

Plenty of spas have unisex spaces. Do some research. But spas are luxuries, not a right.

“can’t ever use a public pool (other than maybe at hotels)”

Put your bathing suit on under your clothes. Take your clothes off at the pool. Get in the pool. Give yourself a few minutes to dry off (these things called towels help with that), put clothes back on over bathing suit. Problem solved. You’re welcome.

“can’t try on clothes,”

Changing rooms when you’re buying/trying on clothes are individual. And even if you had to change in the men’s section, there’s an attendant there to make sure people don’t steal.

“a bunch of other stuff.”

And I’m sure there are ready solutions to the bunch of other stuff too

“But fact of the matter is we are left to choose between physical danger, making people uncomfortable, or missing out in large sections of public life.”

You don’t miss out on shit. You just have to think beyond your self victimization and see that there are several simple solutions.

“Can you at least see how awful it is we have no good choice?”

Nope. I see options and ways around. I also see the need to act like there’s no way to get by without shitting allover females, despite that not being true.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 7 fun2 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 7 fun -  (11 children)

It’s not always about safety. It’s just not. For some yes, in some circumstances, yes. But let’s not pretend that there are no transwomen who do it because of discomfort or out of entitlement.

Sure. I’ll give you there are bad actors in every group. But safety is the justification at core.

Put your bathing suit on under your clothes. Take your clothes off at the pool. Get in the pool. Give yourself a few minutes to dry off (these things called towels help with that), put clothes back on over bathing suit. Problem solved. You’re welcome.

They requiring showing before using the pool most places. That’s the issue.

You don’t miss out on shit. You just have to think beyond your self victimization and see that there are several simple solutions.

Okay this is pointless.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Not all pools require showering, call around, find one that doesn’t. Or make a friend who has a pool or lives in a complex that has a pool, or move to a complex that has a pool, Idk but pools are not a right. You have the option, whether you feel safe taking it or not, to shower in male spaces. I understand why you wouldn’t- the option does exist, objectively.

And even if some situations don’t have simple solutions- some, many even, do. That’s my point. There are ways around a lot of these issues. And there are places you can go where you don’t have to change or be naked (like a fuck ton of places. Most places, actually). You gave three examples and only had a rebuttal for one- clearly there are some instances where there are ways around, that just require effort on your part.

There are plenty of things that vulnerable people choose not to do or feel like we can’t do because we are afraid for our safety. That’s life when your vulnerable, unfortunately. I wish it were better, but it’s not. I can choose not to go somewhere or do something because I’m afraid I’ll get hurt- I still could go, it’s me choosing not to. You could go to a pool and shower in the men’s room, you choose not to (again, I get why- but the option does exist, even if you think it’s not a viable one). That’s not us keeping you from being able to participate in public life- that’s you deciding not to do something because you feel it’s unsafe. It’s not women’s fault you feel unsafe. women literally have nothing to do with the situation other than you deciding to use our safe spaces as refuge. But when you take someone’s space against their will, you’re not in the right. So because you want to have fun, and do things that are not necessities or rights, women have to just lose their right to sex based spaces, because you don’t have unisex spaces all the time? That’s fair? Why?

Everyone should be able to live life freely and do as they please- as long as it doesn’t cause harm. But it feels like we’re now discussing whether women should have their rights or transwomen should be allowed to go swimming and to the gym and I just don’t know that I think getting your body bikini ready for the summer is enough reason to shit on the women’s rights movement.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Access to a pool, spa, or sauna is not a human right. Access to a pool, spa, or sauna is a fucking luxury.

You refuse to back up claims that transwomen are more endangered by other men than women are and then jump to acting like getting to swim in a pool is a necessity you’re being denied.

How can you possibly not see how ridiculous your arguments are?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (8 children)

Access to fitness is at minimum a substantial health concern. But it wasn’t an exhaustive list of things we can’t access anyway.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Access to a pool, spa, or sauna is what we’re talking about.

Denial access to fitness would be a statute making it illegal for you to exercise.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

You are creating the false dichotomy. You say you fear getting beat up, now killed, in a mens locker room. The false dichotomy is therefore you must use the womens room, when that is also inappropriate and this is not about your sense of safety but about voyerism and indecent exposure and a dude swinging his dick in front of little girls. You are making this topic about you when you should go back up and look at the topic title.

Ask for trans spaces, oh but that's not validating. Reality is not validating. How do you propose to keep creeps and liars out of women's spaces? I propose keep sex segregated spaces sex segregated. If you need a trans space, ask for it. Yesterdays riot was not about your safety, it was to shut up and intimidate women so that they accommodate creeps swinging their dicks around in little girls faces. If you think that is about you, then you are dangerous and should not be dealt with politely.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 7 fun2 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 7 fun -  (8 children)

I’m literally openly for single occupancy neutral spaces. Trans spaces are an issue because they force us to put ourselves and the only true escape from trans prejudice is stealth. My point has never Been we should be using all women’s spaces it’s that we can’t use men’s spaces.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I think that is something I'd like to hear more people clammoring for instead of the "we just want to pee, in front of women and little girls" line. But: a gym that can fit say 100 people comfortably should have how many single occupancy spaces? There's the problem. A third room for trans women might be the best solution.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (6 children)

Who would build a third room for a business when most gyms would never see one? Why would they pay for that?

Plus as I said it puts us. It’s better than a men’s room but far from ideal.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

You're the one calling for individual bathrooms, a third is a big savings over that.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (42 children)

I think I get what you’re saying so I’ll clarify-

  1. Im saying that the law is in place so as not to discriminate against gender identity; that doesn’t mean that for TW it can’t be about safety, validation, or yes even perversion. I just meant that this law seems to be in place more so for the sake of the sense of self of some males than safety measures.

  2. Men are responsible for most harm. Period. Against women. Against kids. Against TW and TM. This doesn’t mean that men are on some TW Bashing Rampage. It means sometimes the victim of a violent man is a TW. And that happens much less often than it does to other people.

  3. Love how you tell me that women aren’t unsafe, they just may feel unsafe or uncomfortable- but I should care that you feel unsafe around men? Why does how you feel about what could possibly happen matter more than what countless women and girls fear may possibly happen?

[–]MarkTwainiac 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Seems to me what circling is saying is that because men are responsible for most harm & violence against women, kids, other men & trans-identified people of both sexes, women & girls should have to cede their rights to spaces that exclude all males.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well that is the only fair and logical conclusion /s

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (39 children)

And that happens much less often than it does to other people.

I absolutely and fervently disagree with this.

3 - I’m talking about actual safety. Men hurt trans women way more than trans women hurt natal women. It’s not about feeling safe Its about BEING safe.

But again. My preference is single occupancy neutral spaces.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (38 children)

You can disagree all you want, if you can’t prove that other males are harming TW in droves your disagreement isn’t worth much lol

It does happen, but there’s no reason (Other than you lacking any other argument) to pretend that any time a male sees a transwoman hes just gonna snap and beat the shit out of them. It just isn’t true. Violence happens to all demographics, that doesn’t justify dismantling the rights that a separate group worked so hard to obtain for themselves.

I understand you prefer single occupancy, that doesn’t make using female spaces fair to females when you don’t have access to single occupancy options.

I don’t think it’s fair or even wise to establish a precedent for dismantling the hard earned rights of one group for the benefit of another.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 7 fun2 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 7 fun -  (37 children)

It isn’t provable. Media and police report violence against trans women as violence against gay men which deflate numbers for one. For 2 we don’t trust police so all but the most serious injuries go unreported. A lot of trans women I know have been attacked. Not one has called the cops.

This is why I should just stop responding to you. You deny and downplay us being harmed and deny that we are left with bad choices. It’s easy to have no empathy for a group when you pretend they aren’t harmed.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (36 children)

I’m thinking, women, homosexuals, and trans people often get harmed for being what they are, and some report, some don’t. So all we can do is analyze what does get reported.

I’ve said so many fucking times that I know violence does happen- my point is always going to be that it has nothing to do with women and wr should be left out of it entirely. Like it’s absurd to me that you’re acting like I said TW aren’t ever harmed. I’ve acknowledged they are several times. What I’m saying is that you’re acting as if the average man is just going to go ape shit on you for no reason other than you pissing- that’s not true, and you haven’t shown that it is. I’m not dismissing violence against TW- I’m saying I don’t think there’s any basis for acting as if you’re more likely to encounter someone who will attack you than not.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 7 fun2 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 7 fun -  (35 children)

I’m not taking this further. I’ve literally been beaten up by random men specifically for pissing in a men’s room. Like not hypothetical. It happened to me personally. So yeah men just fuck up trans women for no reason and we should all live in fear of them.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (34 children)

I understand what you’re saying- I’m saying you got beat up by violent men, that happened to be random to you yes- but unless the time you got beat up was literally the only time you ever used the men’s room after you started transitioning (as opposed to being the last time, as you’ve stated before)- that kind of proves that not every random man, even not most random men, are going to attack transwomen. I’m not saying I don’t understand not wanting to risk it- I’m saying it’s not true that most men will harm TW.

It’s gonna happen, yes it is and I acknowledge that. There are violent and hateful men out there. That doesn’t mean that most men are going to go on transphobic attacks.

It is actually fully possible to acknowledge that something can occur (and has occurred), while also acknowledging that most men aren’t slipping into a violent psychotic state at the mere sight of a transwoman.

[–]adungitit 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (3 children)

You could say the same thing about women though, couldn't you? Most men wouldn't harm them, but there are too many who would.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

What’s your point?

I literally made the point that men would harm women so I’m genuinely lost at what you’re trying to say here

Eta: if your point is that just men can harm women but not all of them will and we still take precautions- I made that point myself and I’ve also said several times that I understand that TW may not be safe, but that women and female spaces have nothing to do with it and we should not be robbed of our spaces. I’ve made it clear that my whole point with this thread has been only that significantly more men will not harm TW than that will, so unless you can disprove that, there’s no need for us to waste time being snarky with each other because you feel some type of way

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 7 fun2 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 7 fun -  (29 children)

It’s not a psychotic state. It would be less threatening if it was. They just hate us.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (28 children)

You’re missing my whole point and I think you’re doing it intentionally.

As I said, in the past, when you referenced what happened to you, you’ve referred to the incident as the last time you went into the men’s room. Which means you used the men’s room in the past, and didn’t get attacked. Which means it is in fact possible for other males to encounter TW and not harm them. It would also mean that it’s more likely to not happen.

For what you’re now saying to be true, you’d have had to have gotten attacked every time (or most of the times) you used the men’s room (and by different men each time) with the last time for some reason being the reason you stopped using it.

Again- my point is not that it never happens, it’s not even that if TW use the men’s room it won’t ever happen again, it’s that there are more men who won’t do harm to TW than that will. If men were really just prone to losing it at the sight of TW- you’d all be dead regardless of where you pee. Or severely injured. That’s not the case. That’s what my point is.