Both: In light of recent events. In what context is Voyeurism and Indecent Exposure acceptable? Is there a rational justification for making an exception for males who claim to be women?

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[–]loveSloaneDebate King 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (36 children)

I’m thinking, women, homosexuals, and trans people often get harmed for being what they are, and some report, some don’t. So all we can do is analyze what does get reported.

I’ve said so many fucking times that I know violence does happen- my point is always going to be that it has nothing to do with women and wr should be left out of it entirely. Like it’s absurd to me that you’re acting like I said TW aren’t ever harmed. I’ve acknowledged they are several times. What I’m saying is that you’re acting as if the average man is just going to go ape shit on you for no reason other than you pissing- that’s not true, and you haven’t shown that it is. I’m not dismissing violence against TW- I’m saying I don’t think there’s any basis for acting as if you’re more likely to encounter someone who will attack you than not.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 7 fun2 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 7 fun -  (35 children)

I’m not taking this further. I’ve literally been beaten up by random men specifically for pissing in a men’s room. Like not hypothetical. It happened to me personally. So yeah men just fuck up trans women for no reason and we should all live in fear of them.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (34 children)

I understand what you’re saying- I’m saying you got beat up by violent men, that happened to be random to you yes- but unless the time you got beat up was literally the only time you ever used the men’s room after you started transitioning (as opposed to being the last time, as you’ve stated before)- that kind of proves that not every random man, even not most random men, are going to attack transwomen. I’m not saying I don’t understand not wanting to risk it- I’m saying it’s not true that most men will harm TW.

It’s gonna happen, yes it is and I acknowledge that. There are violent and hateful men out there. That doesn’t mean that most men are going to go on transphobic attacks.

It is actually fully possible to acknowledge that something can occur (and has occurred), while also acknowledging that most men aren’t slipping into a violent psychotic state at the mere sight of a transwoman.

[–]adungitit 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (3 children)

You could say the same thing about women though, couldn't you? Most men wouldn't harm them, but there are too many who would.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

What’s your point?

I literally made the point that men would harm women so I’m genuinely lost at what you’re trying to say here

Eta: if your point is that just men can harm women but not all of them will and we still take precautions- I made that point myself and I’ve also said several times that I understand that TW may not be safe, but that women and female spaces have nothing to do with it and we should not be robbed of our spaces. I’ve made it clear that my whole point with this thread has been only that significantly more men will not harm TW than that will, so unless you can disprove that, there’s no need for us to waste time being snarky with each other because you feel some type of way

[–]adungitit 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I am replying to your comment claiming that them being beaten up "only" once proves that most men are not a threat to them. Again, your entire argument can apply to women. The fact that you can claim you say otherwise doesn't make your faulty arguments have merit. A baby could say they're a dog, that doesn't make them a dog.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

So you just don’t understand at all what we were discussing then lmao

You haven’t said shit to prove that most men are in fact a threat to TW and until you do you have nothing to contribute here

I don’t need you to point out that these things happen to women too… Because I pointed that out myself long before you popped into our conversation.

Doesn’t really make sense that you’re calling the same argument you’re making faulty when I make it, but I guess lol

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 7 fun2 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 7 fun -  (29 children)

It’s not a psychotic state. It would be less threatening if it was. They just hate us.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (28 children)

You’re missing my whole point and I think you’re doing it intentionally.

As I said, in the past, when you referenced what happened to you, you’ve referred to the incident as the last time you went into the men’s room. Which means you used the men’s room in the past, and didn’t get attacked. Which means it is in fact possible for other males to encounter TW and not harm them. It would also mean that it’s more likely to not happen.

For what you’re now saying to be true, you’d have had to have gotten attacked every time (or most of the times) you used the men’s room (and by different men each time) with the last time for some reason being the reason you stopped using it.

Again- my point is not that it never happens, it’s not even that if TW use the men’s room it won’t ever happen again, it’s that there are more men who won’t do harm to TW than that will. If men were really just prone to losing it at the sight of TW- you’d all be dead regardless of where you pee. Or severely injured. That’s not the case. That’s what my point is.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (27 children)

There’s enough men who want to hurt us. And there isn’t a better or more convenient opportunity than a men’s room. We can’t escape noone will help. It’s an ideal situation for a predator to hurt us.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (26 children)

As I said- I think you’re intentionally missing my point.

You had to have used the men’s room hundreds of times. You got attacked once.

Im not disagreeing that an attack could happen- I’m saying you haven’t proven that it’s all but guaranteed, or even highly likely. But you keep claiming that it is. That’s disingenuous. Again- I understand not wanting to take the risk, but you’re making it sound like the risk is 1/10 when it could very well be 1/1000000. Either way it shouldn’t happen, to be clear. But your version of things doesn’t make sense because if that many men want to harm TW, they would find a way. Bathrooms may be optimal- they aren’t the only option. And since TW are using women’s facilities, yet still get killed and attacked (often, according to you), my point remains that if most men were likely to want to harm TW for existing, you’d all be dead.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (25 children)

What’s the threshold that is okay for you rate wise for it to be acceptable for us to have to risk getting beaten or killed for it to be okay.

So I used a public bathroom let’s say twice a week. That attack happened maybe 18 months into transition so that’s 1:144. That fair odds to you to ignore.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (24 children)

Again- I get why TW don’t want to take the risk. My points are

  1. Has nothing to do with women so leave us and our spaces out of it

And

  • 2. You used public male spaces for 18 months and got attacked once, which shouldn’t have happened, but shows that every other time, nobody harmed you. Which means that more men didn’t want to do you harm than did. That’s all I’ve been saying this whole time. Not saying there’s no risk- saying you’re implying that most men are a risk and that’s just false. Even according to your own story,the overwhelming majority of the men who saw you in the men’s room didn’t harm you. Again, I understand not taking the risk at all.

But also- if you only use public bathrooms an average of twice a week I don’t really see how not having access to female spaces inhibits your ability to participate in society.

Eta- for clarity, I’m not saying there an acceptable ratio, my sole point has just been that the majority of men won’t harm TW, Im not denying that some will and have

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun -  (23 children)

At that point we had single occupancy toilets at work. That’s not a universal