Both: In light of recent events. In what context is Voyeurism and Indecent Exposure acceptable? Is there a rational justification for making an exception for males who claim to be women?

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[–]loveSloaneDebate King 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (61 children)

No no no- I said they don’t feel comfortable in male spaces, and I acknowledged that there are some creeps who just want to be in female spaces (hence the “could be” in my comment). I’m saying it’s both, and we don’t know who’s who until someone behaves inappropriately.

Some of you are perverts. Some of us are, too. That’s life, buddy.

And yeah, I think the rights, comfort and safety of females should be prioritized over any and all males in any female specific space. Because that’s the point of female specific spaces.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (60 children)

Not being comfortable and not being safe aren’t the same thing. We aren’t safe in men’s spaces. That’s why we don’t go there. If I went into a men’s locker room I legitimately might be killed. That’s the point.

[–][deleted] 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (34 children)

Statistically you’re less likely to be murdered by men than the women you’re lecturing about safety. Statistically, you as a transwomen are more likely to murder someone than be murdered yourself. No one here believes your victim narrative except yourself.

[–]adungitit 4 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

Uh, are we really going to act like feminine men being threatened and bullied by other men is a hard pill to swallow?

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Uh, no?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 10 fun1 insightful - 9 fun2 insightful - 10 fun -  (31 children)

Statistically, you as a transwomen are more likely to murder someone than be murdered yourself.

This is wildly untrue and you should be ashamed.

[–][deleted] 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (28 children)

🙄

Transwomen have a male pattern of criminality and a lower murder rate than the general population. The cats out of the bag.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 9 fun1 insightful - 8 fun2 insightful - 9 fun -  (27 children)

No.

[–][deleted] 13 insightful - 3 fun13 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 3 fun -  (26 children)

You know what, you’re right. I thought the data was convincing, but you’ve totally changed my mind with your imagination, wishful thinking, and declarative statements.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 8 fun2 insightful - 7 fun3 insightful - 8 fun -  (25 children)

The data isn’t convincing. You just want to pretend you have statistics to support your bigotry.

[–][deleted] 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (24 children)

I guess I hallucinated the data 1 2. Not again! I really need to get the carbon monoxide levels checked in my house.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 7 fun2 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 7 fun -  (23 children)

It’s almost as if the media’s noted protensity to report trans women’s deaths as men’s deaths that I already talked about could play a role. Or the fact that your claim that trans women are more likely to be murders than murdered is total horse shit. Weird.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It’s actually quite easy to verify.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Figures then, please. I’d like the stats you have backing up your accusation.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (24 children)

So don’t go into male spaces, if you don’t want to. Doesn’t mean it’s okay to disrupt female spaces.

Who are you to tell women and girls that a male presence in a space that is not supposed to have any males in it is safe? You don’t get to decide for us if we feel safe or not, but it’s not just about safety. You’re infringing on our rights.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 7 fun2 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 7 fun -  (23 children)

So don’t go into male spaces, if you don’t want to.

My point was literally to get you to acknowledge it’s about safety not your false dichotomy.

As you well know I prefer neutral spaces and don’t use women’s spaces at all other than bathrooms. Not because I think I shouldn’t be able to, I just don’t want to make anyone uncomfortable.

So okay. I have to build gym days around going home after, can’t go to a spa, can’t ever use a public pool (other than maybe at hotels) can’t try on clothes, a bunch of other stuff. But fact of the matter is we are left to choose between physical danger, making people uncomfortable, or missing out in large sections of public life. Can you at least see how awful it is we have no good choice?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

It’s not always about safety. It’s just not. For some yes, in some circumstances, yes. But let’s not pretend that there are no transwomen who do it because of discomfort or out of entitlement.

“So okay. I have to build gym days around going home after,”

Oh no, you have to put a bit of effort into your scheduling so you don’t disrupt someone else’s rights or cause discomfort. Poor baby. How you suffer.

“can’t go to a spa,”

Plenty of spas have unisex spaces. Do some research. But spas are luxuries, not a right.

“can’t ever use a public pool (other than maybe at hotels)”

Put your bathing suit on under your clothes. Take your clothes off at the pool. Get in the pool. Give yourself a few minutes to dry off (these things called towels help with that), put clothes back on over bathing suit. Problem solved. You’re welcome.

“can’t try on clothes,”

Changing rooms when you’re buying/trying on clothes are individual. And even if you had to change in the men’s section, there’s an attendant there to make sure people don’t steal.

“a bunch of other stuff.”

And I’m sure there are ready solutions to the bunch of other stuff too

“But fact of the matter is we are left to choose between physical danger, making people uncomfortable, or missing out in large sections of public life.”

You don’t miss out on shit. You just have to think beyond your self victimization and see that there are several simple solutions.

“Can you at least see how awful it is we have no good choice?”

Nope. I see options and ways around. I also see the need to act like there’s no way to get by without shitting allover females, despite that not being true.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 7 fun2 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 7 fun -  (11 children)

It’s not always about safety. It’s just not. For some yes, in some circumstances, yes. But let’s not pretend that there are no transwomen who do it because of discomfort or out of entitlement.

Sure. I’ll give you there are bad actors in every group. But safety is the justification at core.

Put your bathing suit on under your clothes. Take your clothes off at the pool. Get in the pool. Give yourself a few minutes to dry off (these things called towels help with that), put clothes back on over bathing suit. Problem solved. You’re welcome.

They requiring showing before using the pool most places. That’s the issue.

You don’t miss out on shit. You just have to think beyond your self victimization and see that there are several simple solutions.

Okay this is pointless.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Not all pools require showering, call around, find one that doesn’t. Or make a friend who has a pool or lives in a complex that has a pool, or move to a complex that has a pool, Idk but pools are not a right. You have the option, whether you feel safe taking it or not, to shower in male spaces. I understand why you wouldn’t- the option does exist, objectively.

And even if some situations don’t have simple solutions- some, many even, do. That’s my point. There are ways around a lot of these issues. And there are places you can go where you don’t have to change or be naked (like a fuck ton of places. Most places, actually). You gave three examples and only had a rebuttal for one- clearly there are some instances where there are ways around, that just require effort on your part.

There are plenty of things that vulnerable people choose not to do or feel like we can’t do because we are afraid for our safety. That’s life when your vulnerable, unfortunately. I wish it were better, but it’s not. I can choose not to go somewhere or do something because I’m afraid I’ll get hurt- I still could go, it’s me choosing not to. You could go to a pool and shower in the men’s room, you choose not to (again, I get why- but the option does exist, even if you think it’s not a viable one). That’s not us keeping you from being able to participate in public life- that’s you deciding not to do something because you feel it’s unsafe. It’s not women’s fault you feel unsafe. women literally have nothing to do with the situation other than you deciding to use our safe spaces as refuge. But when you take someone’s space against their will, you’re not in the right. So because you want to have fun, and do things that are not necessities or rights, women have to just lose their right to sex based spaces, because you don’t have unisex spaces all the time? That’s fair? Why?

Everyone should be able to live life freely and do as they please- as long as it doesn’t cause harm. But it feels like we’re now discussing whether women should have their rights or transwomen should be allowed to go swimming and to the gym and I just don’t know that I think getting your body bikini ready for the summer is enough reason to shit on the women’s rights movement.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Access to a pool, spa, or sauna is not a human right. Access to a pool, spa, or sauna is a fucking luxury.

You refuse to back up claims that transwomen are more endangered by other men than women are and then jump to acting like getting to swim in a pool is a necessity you’re being denied.

How can you possibly not see how ridiculous your arguments are?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (8 children)

Access to fitness is at minimum a substantial health concern. But it wasn’t an exhaustive list of things we can’t access anyway.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Access to a pool, spa, or sauna is what we’re talking about.

Denial access to fitness would be a statute making it illegal for you to exercise.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (6 children)

Facilities are more effective than home workouts.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

You are creating the false dichotomy. You say you fear getting beat up, now killed, in a mens locker room. The false dichotomy is therefore you must use the womens room, when that is also inappropriate and this is not about your sense of safety but about voyerism and indecent exposure and a dude swinging his dick in front of little girls. You are making this topic about you when you should go back up and look at the topic title.

Ask for trans spaces, oh but that's not validating. Reality is not validating. How do you propose to keep creeps and liars out of women's spaces? I propose keep sex segregated spaces sex segregated. If you need a trans space, ask for it. Yesterdays riot was not about your safety, it was to shut up and intimidate women so that they accommodate creeps swinging their dicks around in little girls faces. If you think that is about you, then you are dangerous and should not be dealt with politely.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 7 fun2 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 7 fun -  (8 children)

I’m literally openly for single occupancy neutral spaces. Trans spaces are an issue because they force us to put ourselves and the only true escape from trans prejudice is stealth. My point has never Been we should be using all women’s spaces it’s that we can’t use men’s spaces.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I think that is something I'd like to hear more people clammoring for instead of the "we just want to pee, in front of women and little girls" line. But: a gym that can fit say 100 people comfortably should have how many single occupancy spaces? There's the problem. A third room for trans women might be the best solution.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (6 children)

Who would build a third room for a business when most gyms would never see one? Why would they pay for that?

Plus as I said it puts us. It’s better than a men’s room but far from ideal.

[–]FlippyKingSadly this sub welcomes rape apologists and victim blaming. Bye! 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

You're the one calling for individual bathrooms, a third is a big savings over that.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (4 children)

Not really. An empty room that costs a bunch of money is a hard sell.