QT: Where are the “trans men” athletes winning against men?

submitted by BiologyIsReal from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]catoborosnonbinary 6 insightful - 4 fun6 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 4 fun -  (18 children)

Handicapping based on age/height/weight/past-performance is one way to include trans people in competitive sport. Masters games already has classes. Current testosterone levels are only one part of a much broader picture.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 10 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 3 fun -  (17 children)

Current testosterone levels are only one part of a much broader picture.

Indeed, the entire body of a person should be taken into consideration, not just their hormones. Which is why males shouldn' t compete in women' s leagues, because even if, for some miracle, their testosterone results ok for women' s leagues, the rest of their body isn' t.

And that' s without even taking into consideration just how fucking gross it is that women, who have fought to have their leagues because their SEX was discriminated against in this specific area, have to be told that they are supposed to make room for males (who have been able to compete in official sport leagues since the beginning of civilization) and see them stealing their achievements, records, trophies and glory because "it' s the nice thing to do".

[–]a_green_squidtransmed i guess? 3 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 4 fun -  (16 children)

because even if, for some miracle, their testosterone results ok for women' s leagues,

sorry, not getting involved in the conversation because I know nothing about sports nor do I care much about them, but... you realize that any TW on hormones will have T levels comparable to women, right? Like it's not a miraculous thing, it just... is.

edit for reference: my last blood test put me at .2 ng/ml, which would be approaching the low end of normal female levels

second edit: Should say any TW on a proper amount of hormones, not some weird 50 mg spiro 1 mg estro crap.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (15 children)

This doesn' t happen to every trans natal male, and even if it did, the point still stands: hormones are important, but they shouldn' t be the ultimate test for letting males in women' s sport leagues.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

Yes, the effects of testosterone on the body are permanent with bone structure and stuff. Males who transition should give up competitive sports. I don’t know why people push for it. I feel like it can’t be fair any other way.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

I don' t necessarily think they should give up on sports, I just think that there should be leagues made specifically for them. I have zero problems with them competing against each other, just get someone to make the rules and what should be considered the limits and go for it.

I just don' t think that males should compete against females as a standard, nor I think that females on testosterone should compete against other females (or males, to be honest).

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

I just think that there should be leagues made specifically for them.

But why separate sports leagues for people based on the way they prefer to dress, wear their hair, groom, modify their appearance & think of themselves? There's no rational basis for doing something so extreme & costly. Plus, instead of being "inclusive," this would "other" & ghettoize these athletes. It's time for the world of male athletics to budge up & help trans-identified males feel at home & safe in the sports - and locker rooms - of their own sex. Otherwise, we'll end up with separate sports leagues based on looks, adherence to sex stereotypes, people's identity claims and all factors that shouldn't affect sports eligibility in sports, like skin color and religion. This will lead to more divisiveness & segregation - and to more deeply-entrenched sexism, homophobia, racism & so on.

Women have always accepted that in female sports and locker rooms, the athletes will run the gamut from "feminine" looking "girly girls" to stone butches, with most of us somewhere in between. Why can't boys & men do the same? Why can't males be inclusive & kind to all types of males? Men need to look within themselves & figure out why they keep trying to banish males they see as "feminine," "sissies" & "unmanly" from the male category.

I just think that there should be leagues made specifically for them

Plus, who's gonna do the making here? Who's gonna put in the effort? If trans people want separate sports - which they don't - they've gotta step up to the plate & start lobbying for them. And they've gotta get down in the trenches & start building them. That's what women had to do. The sports, spaces & services women have today didn't suddenly fall out of the sky once laws were changed to make it illegal to discriminate against women based on our sex. Girls & women's sports, spaces & services came about coz generations of women put in the hard work to create & build them.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I mean, I agree with what you are saying, I was just making the point that if sports and gender identity were really that important for them, then making leagues specifically for them would be a good way to solve the problem. I am sure that there are millionaires willing to spend money and time over this if it were something they wanted.

Of course, I don' t believe that is what the issue is in the least: much like sex segregated spaces, it seems like it' s more about not letting women alone than anything else. If you read about the coverage for the bans on trans natal males in women' s leagues, it almost sounds like they are complaining for not being allowed to play sports, but of course we know that they are 100% able to do that, they just can' t do it in women' s leagues. So yeah, the problem isn' t that they want to play sports, it' s that they want to play against women.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, this is ultimately about validation. And they crave it so much that they don't realise the sport issue will be their downfall. By that I mean, this is something that they can't hide. If transactivists have it their way, everyone will see through all their lies.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

That’s a good thought! I’d be totally fine with them doing that. The competing with females is a problem though and I don’t like the way it’s putting trans people in the culture war. I feel like it could all be avoided just by being reasonable.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Without a doubt.

Most of the issues regarding this topic could be solved by being reasonable.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Among the "and stuff" is the fact that males have considerably larger, more powerful & efficient lungs and hearts. In comparably sized males and females, the males' hearts will be 28-35% larger. Males have much greater lung capacity too, which is one of the many reasons that in persons with cystic fibrosis given the same level of medical care, the males typically have better health & live longer than the females do. This has been consistently observed & documented since CF as a distinct disease was first identified & described in the 1950s.

[–]a_green_squidtransmed i guess? 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (6 children)

but they shouldn' t be the ultimate test for letting males in women' s sport leagues.

not saying they are. Honestly my opinion on sports is: tough, don't compete if you are trans

That said it's wildly inaccurate misinformation on the subject I DO know about, I'm not letting it go unsaid.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

As I already said, this doesn' t happen to every trans natal male. It happened to you and it happens to others, great. It doesn' t happen to everyone. You say it yourself that different treatments can be considered crap and are going to give different results.

[–]a_green_squidtransmed i guess? 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (4 children)

Sure but don't act like a TW getting more than literally nothing in hormones is a 'miracle'. I've said it before elsewhere but I help people with their levels on twitter, TW above like 2-3 ng/ml are a massive outlier. Even with bad hormone intake it's usually like .5-1.

edit: in hindsight I will admit that anyone who cares enough to pay attention to their levels is probably taking treatment more seriously, so they'd be slightly skewed to more normal levels than normal, though I doubt that'd change much.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Are you a doctor or a pharmacist? Because if not, I think giving medical advice to strangers on the internet it's pretty irresponsible.

[–]Greensquidsphone 2 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 4 fun -  (2 children)

Thank you for your 2 cents. When doctors do more than a 5 second Google search of trans care to come up with their absolutely garbage ideas for treatment I'll stop being so irresponsible.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

And your solution is playing doctor and promoting self-medication?