QT: Where are the “trans men” athletes winning against men?

submitted by BiologyIsReal from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]a_green_squidtransmed i guess? 3 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 4 fun -  (32 children)

because even if, for some miracle, their testosterone results ok for women' s leagues,

sorry, not getting involved in the conversation because I know nothing about sports nor do I care much about them, but... you realize that any TW on hormones will have T levels comparable to women, right? Like it's not a miraculous thing, it just... is.

edit for reference: my last blood test put me at .2 ng/ml, which would be approaching the low end of normal female levels

second edit: Should say any TW on a proper amount of hormones, not some weird 50 mg spiro 1 mg estro crap.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 7 insightful - 4 fun7 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

Lmao, no, maximum testosterone for female athletes is around 2.7 nanomoles per litre, while average male athletes on blockers and estrogene have around 9-12 if they are lucky enough. It is really hard to achieve required "maximum of 5" (and even previous maximum of 10) that is set on olympics for many transwomen who are doing sports, as training is raising testosterone levels.

And anyways, testosterone is just minor part of male body advantages over female body, the whole body structure is very different. Testosterone is just one of 20 differences (lunghs size, heart size, amount of red cells, metabolism, muscle tissues different, skeletal structure, bone density, etc). Even if take away testosterone levels - previous effects of testosterone would not go away, and as well the other 19 differences would stay.

[–]a_green_squidtransmed i guess? 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

.2 ng/ml is .7 nmol/l

wowee would you look at that it's way lower.

Honestly literally 0 idea where you got 12 on average for a TW on blockers and estrogen, considering that's still above the bottom of normal male levels.

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (13 children)

sorry, not getting involved in the conversation because I know nothing about sports nor do I care much about them, but... you realize that any TW on hormones will have T levels comparable to women, right? Like it's not a miraculous thing, it just... is.

So if you don't know anything nor do you care, why throw your two cents in?

but... you realize that any TW on hormones will have T levels comparable to women, right? Like it's not a miraculous thing, it just... is.

That claim just proves that you really weren't kidding when you said you know nothing about this topic. Current levels of circulating testosterone are not the issue when it comes to trans-identified males in women's sports. Reducing T levels even for years does not take away male sports advantage. Women are not simply males with less T. To suggest we are is profoundly insulting to the half of the human race who are female, including your own mum.

Moreover, pro-trans physicians who specialize in trans medicine have published research showing that even when on androgen blockers & high dose estradiol, 75% of TW are unable to get their T low enough that it's in the female range &/or to keep it there. A study of the actual lab results - not the claims - of 98 anonymized TW treated at the transgender clinic at Boston Medical Center published in Endocrine Practice in 2018 found that

Only a quarter of transgender women taking a regimen of spironolactone and estrogens were able to lower testosterone levels within the usual female physiologic range. Another quarter could not achieve female levels but remained below the male range virtually all of the time, while one quarter was unable to achieve any significant suppression.

https://www.bumc.bu.edu/busm/2018/02/20/medicine-alone-does-not-completely-suppress-testosterone-levels-among-transgender-women/

Conclusion: Among a cohort of transgender women treated with spironolactone and estrogen, the highest suppressing quartile could reliably achieve testosterone levels in the female range at virtually all times. The second highest suppressing quartile could not achieve female levels but remained below the male range virtually all of the time. One quartile was unable to achieve any significant suppression.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29144822/

https://www.endocrinepractice.org/article/S1530-891X(20)35396-9/fulltext

But even if trans-identified males can reduce their testosterone to female levels, it doesn't remove the enormous sporting advantages that come from having gone through male puberty - in the mini-puberty of infancy & the longer puberty of adolescence. The only advantage they lose is their higher hemoglobin. In terms of muscle mass & strength, lowering T even for years has a negligible effect. As the World Rugby research, Ross Tucker, Emma Hilton & Tommy Lundgren & many others have shown. Now even TRA Joanna Harper - whose phony "research" was the basis for the IOC deciding in 2015 that males who identify as women should be allowed in female sports so long as they reduce their circulating T to 10 nmol/L - published a paper earlier this year admitting this. In fact, Ross Tucker said that the research done for World Rugby indicated that if trans-identified males participate in athletic training after commencing transition-related hormone treatment, they might actually gain in sports advantage over women.

[–]Greensquidsphone 2 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 4 fun -  (12 children)

Some crazy links, Mark. I know you didn't do more than glance at them, though, because they're literally all the exact same study. A study of 98 participants, all of which are from the exact same clinic and so without a doubt all have the exact same doctor. Which I conveniently can't critique the data of because the single study you gave me (3 times in a row) has no full text available nor do they list any useful numbers in their abstract. And as i've stated, with regards to sports, I don't disagree. My issue is with junk science claims made in a topic it's clear they know nothing about. I really wonder if you actually read the things you link beyond a cursory peek.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

I provided three different ways to access the same paper coz not everyone is able to access the same sites/resources, & because each one of these three framed & phrased the findings of that paper in the same way I never suggested or intimated that I was citing three separate sources.

But at least I provide links. You just make assertions without any substantiation. A paper from a major medical center using the lab tests results for 98 actual medical patients certainly doesn't constitute the last word, but it's more credible than a lone person repeatedly insisting this is how it is because I say so.

[–]Greensquidsphone 2 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 4 fun -  (10 children)

One of the links is just a rephrasing of thr abstract, and the other two are exactly the same.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15532739.2017.1290566

Here's a study of 86 patients on low cypro doses with comparable female t levels. I think that link has full access but if it doesn't let me know and I'll find it when I have access to my computer.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (9 children)

Thanks, Greensquidsphone. Very interesting.

But sorry, I have the feeling that the medical journal Endocrine Practice might be a little less biased than the International Journal of Transgenderism, which is owned & operated by WPATH.

WPATH's entire purpose is to promote & normalize transgenderism and to get more children to identify as trans and undergo life-altering medical interventions that will stunt their development, leave them sterile & sexually dysfunctional, and make them lifelong "trans medicine" patients reliant on Big Pharma drugs until the end of their days on earth. Coz medicalizing "gender identity" in kids is big money.

WPATH functions more as a political lobbying organization, gender-ideology propaganda machine and child grooming outfit than anything else. WPATH actively promotes subjecting children and adolescents to damaging medical interventions like puberty blockers and CSH and is known to have told a lot of outright lies. WPATH is also associated with with such discredited, unethical characters and organizations as Susie Green/Mermaids, Helen Webberly/Gender GP, Gender Spectrum (of the infamous gender jelly babies chart) and Jack Turban.

As its website shows, WPATH campaigns for a slew of odious policies that are harmful to women and to children. Including ending female-only sports (coz all that matters to WPATH is what "trans girls" want) and overturning the UK High Court's ruling in Bell v Tavistock that put the brakes on the irresponsible, injurious practice of putting confused, mentally unwell often autistic children on puberty blockers & CSHs rather than help them sort out their issues, come to terms with their bodies and develop healthy self-concepts and self-esteem.

The International Journal of Transgenderism , together with its partner organization the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH), provides an intellectual forum that stimulates new ways of thinking and understanding various aspects of sex, gender identity, and gender expression for academics, practitioners, policy makers, and the general population.

https://duotrope.com/listing/20400/international-journal-transgenderism

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      [–]BiologyIsReal[S,M] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      Please remove the part about Greensquid's "passing" in your comment.

      [–]BiologyIsReal[S,M] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      I'll ask it again, remove the part about Greensquid's "passing" in your comment.

      [–]Greensquidsphone 2 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 4 fun -  (2 children)

      https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/15532739.2017.1290566?casa_token=bXuUAMoa9hkAAAAA%3Ag1EkP5Gntrpu3M5ieN6ySVaUBlKvbXhwLjxTPvS0CLyZdglgz0W7kBccTf081SeDGUoUAtIsaTew9w Let me know if this link doesn't work, I think I somehow stumbled upon a full access link the other day that no longer functions, I'll just pm you the plaintext of the study if it's broken.

      It's one thing to respond to posts you don't like with rude, puerile put downs such as "pointless" and "crap" and whingey throwaway phrases like "dogwhistle rant," "don't waste your time" and "why should I bother."

      If you don't like it then don't write three paragraphs of personal opinion that literally reads to me as nothing but you stroking the egos of other radfem posters here.

      But why make a vulgar reference to male group masturbation? Do you really think likening the "GC" side - most of whom are women - to a bunch of fellas sitting around with their dicks in their hands wanking & jizzing makes you come off as persuasive?

      I mean, I know you know that in context I'm not saying you and the gals are whipping out dicks to what you wrote. And if you somehow dont:

      "Circle Jerk" is a pejorative slang term referring to a positive feedback loop which occurs when an idea or belief that is already customary within an online community becomes re-iterated and rewarded in a perpetual cycle

      And that it will help convince others that you "pass" as a woman IRL as you tell us you do?

      Besides this being arguably against the rules (No personal attacks. This includes insults, inquiring into a person's appearance or passability...), why do I care if a group of women on the internet think I don't pass because I use an internet word on the internet?

      https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document/031_expert_affidavit_of_dr._stephen_levine_with_exhibit.pdf

      This Levine guy really likes to quote himself. Again I don't know what you want out of me here, I too have qualms with WPATH SOC. They aren't yours, but they are there.

      BTW, I never mentioned the word "evil." Only you did. Twice

      True, I used my magic power of 'inference'. You didn't use evil, but you did use:

      -Big pharma (a conspiracy surrounding an evil corporatist plot)

      -SUBJECTING children and adolescents to DAMAGING medical intervention

      -slew of odious policies

      -irresponsible, injurious practice

      I don't see it as that much of a stretch, to be honest, Mark.

      I take issue with the fact that you're preaching the clinical treatment of people with a medical disorder as a harmful practice. It's done so without proof, I've had people on this site go so far as to tell me they have no proof at all. Your "come to terms with their bodies and develop healthy self-concepts and self-esteem." is thinly veiled conversion therapy advocation unless you can provide concrete evidence loving oneself more is an effective cure for GD.

      In conclusion, Mark, I don't believe it's a post you wrote to me, I believe it's a post you wrote to your GC audience. Considering to even get through the first couple of sentences I have to go off the assumption that gender dysphoria doesn't exist, an assumption which I will not make, I think that's a fairly safe guess.

      Again, "WPATH is biased I don't trust your source" would have sufficed.

      [–]BiologyIsReal[S,M] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

      Ok, Greensquid, that is enough. You don't get to tell other users what they can or can't say here just because you disagree with their premises. Otherwise, GC users could also tell you that basing your arguments presuming TWAW is only stroking the QT's ego. If you can't argue without putting others down, I suggest you came back to this thread once you've calmed down.

      [–]BiologyIsReal[S,M] 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

      This is a debate sub. She is allowed to make all the GC talking points she want as long she is following the rules, just like you can do the same with your views. Try to engage with other users' arguments rather than jump to rude comments and "threatening" not to read/reply what they say like you often do.

      Edit: I was too lenient the first time around, so I'm deleting this comment now.

      [–]Greensquidsphone 2 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

      I mean if someone clearly is writing to an audience that clearly isn't me I don't see why I should bother responding. It's so asinine and far-reaching the only legitimate response I can give it is "lol".

      [–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (15 children)

      This doesn' t happen to every trans natal male, and even if it did, the point still stands: hormones are important, but they shouldn' t be the ultimate test for letting males in women' s sport leagues.

      [–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

      Yes, the effects of testosterone on the body are permanent with bone structure and stuff. Males who transition should give up competitive sports. I don’t know why people push for it. I feel like it can’t be fair any other way.

      [–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

      I don' t necessarily think they should give up on sports, I just think that there should be leagues made specifically for them. I have zero problems with them competing against each other, just get someone to make the rules and what should be considered the limits and go for it.

      I just don' t think that males should compete against females as a standard, nor I think that females on testosterone should compete against other females (or males, to be honest).

      [–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

      I just think that there should be leagues made specifically for them.

      But why separate sports leagues for people based on the way they prefer to dress, wear their hair, groom, modify their appearance & think of themselves? There's no rational basis for doing something so extreme & costly. Plus, instead of being "inclusive," this would "other" & ghettoize these athletes. It's time for the world of male athletics to budge up & help trans-identified males feel at home & safe in the sports - and locker rooms - of their own sex. Otherwise, we'll end up with separate sports leagues based on looks, adherence to sex stereotypes, people's identity claims and all factors that shouldn't affect sports eligibility in sports, like skin color and religion. This will lead to more divisiveness & segregation - and to more deeply-entrenched sexism, homophobia, racism & so on.

      Women have always accepted that in female sports and locker rooms, the athletes will run the gamut from "feminine" looking "girly girls" to stone butches, with most of us somewhere in between. Why can't boys & men do the same? Why can't males be inclusive & kind to all types of males? Men need to look within themselves & figure out why they keep trying to banish males they see as "feminine," "sissies" & "unmanly" from the male category.

      I just think that there should be leagues made specifically for them

      Plus, who's gonna do the making here? Who's gonna put in the effort? If trans people want separate sports - which they don't - they've gotta step up to the plate & start lobbying for them. And they've gotta get down in the trenches & start building them. That's what women had to do. The sports, spaces & services women have today didn't suddenly fall out of the sky once laws were changed to make it illegal to discriminate against women based on our sex. Girls & women's sports, spaces & services came about coz generations of women put in the hard work to create & build them.

      [–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

      I mean, I agree with what you are saying, I was just making the point that if sports and gender identity were really that important for them, then making leagues specifically for them would be a good way to solve the problem. I am sure that there are millionaires willing to spend money and time over this if it were something they wanted.

      Of course, I don' t believe that is what the issue is in the least: much like sex segregated spaces, it seems like it' s more about not letting women alone than anything else. If you read about the coverage for the bans on trans natal males in women' s leagues, it almost sounds like they are complaining for not being allowed to play sports, but of course we know that they are 100% able to do that, they just can' t do it in women' s leagues. So yeah, the problem isn' t that they want to play sports, it' s that they want to play against women.

      [–]BiologyIsReal[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      Yes, this is ultimately about validation. And they crave it so much that they don't realise the sport issue will be their downfall. By that I mean, this is something that they can't hide. If transactivists have it their way, everyone will see through all their lies.

      [–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

      That’s a good thought! I’d be totally fine with them doing that. The competing with females is a problem though and I don’t like the way it’s putting trans people in the culture war. I feel like it could all be avoided just by being reasonable.

      [–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

      Without a doubt.

      Most of the issues regarding this topic could be solved by being reasonable.

      [–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      Among the "and stuff" is the fact that males have considerably larger, more powerful & efficient lungs and hearts. In comparably sized males and females, the males' hearts will be 28-35% larger. Males have much greater lung capacity too, which is one of the many reasons that in persons with cystic fibrosis given the same level of medical care, the males typically have better health & live longer than the females do. This has been consistently observed & documented since CF as a distinct disease was first identified & described in the 1950s.

      [–]a_green_squidtransmed i guess? 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (6 children)

      but they shouldn' t be the ultimate test for letting males in women' s sport leagues.

      not saying they are. Honestly my opinion on sports is: tough, don't compete if you are trans

      That said it's wildly inaccurate misinformation on the subject I DO know about, I'm not letting it go unsaid.

      [–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

      As I already said, this doesn' t happen to every trans natal male. It happened to you and it happens to others, great. It doesn' t happen to everyone. You say it yourself that different treatments can be considered crap and are going to give different results.

      [–]a_green_squidtransmed i guess? 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (4 children)

      Sure but don't act like a TW getting more than literally nothing in hormones is a 'miracle'. I've said it before elsewhere but I help people with their levels on twitter, TW above like 2-3 ng/ml are a massive outlier. Even with bad hormone intake it's usually like .5-1.

      edit: in hindsight I will admit that anyone who cares enough to pay attention to their levels is probably taking treatment more seriously, so they'd be slightly skewed to more normal levels than normal, though I doubt that'd change much.

      [–]BiologyIsReal[S] 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

      Are you a doctor or a pharmacist? Because if not, I think giving medical advice to strangers on the internet it's pretty irresponsible.

      [–]Greensquidsphone 2 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 4 fun -  (2 children)

      Thank you for your 2 cents. When doctors do more than a 5 second Google search of trans care to come up with their absolutely garbage ideas for treatment I'll stop being so irresponsible.

      [–]BiologyIsReal[S] 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

      And your solution is playing doctor and promoting self-medication?

      [–]Greensquidsphone 3 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

      8 times out of 10 my solution is "tell your doctor 'this'". I only recommend self medding in cases where people don't have access to medical treatment, and in those cases I want to make sure they're as safe as possible while doing so, helping them find clinics for blood tests, etc