QT- The intersex/hermaphroditism comparisons and examples

submitted by loveSloaneDebate King from self.GCdebatesQT

sorted by:
top
newinsightfulfun
you are viewing a single comment's thread.

view the rest of the comments →

[–]comradeconradical 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (24 children)

A structural basis of dysphoria really just solidifies it as a mental illness, as there are similar structural differences in different mental disorders like depression and schizophrenia. It means nothing for gender.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Besides not being able to prove the brain argument, unless they are claiming that brains are somehow intersex, their claims have zero relevance to the topic at hand. Utterly ridiculous.

[–]comradeconradical 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes im not sure what the point here is or what masks is trying to prove... despite multiple comments on it

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (21 children)

Dysphoria is a mental illness. I’ve never said it wasn’t. It’s just an illness you treat with transition.

[–]comradeconradical 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

Nah, sadly further research into treatment hasn't been done because there is so much money to be made by making medical patients for life out of healthy bodies.

Lobotomy was considered the right treatment for many afflictions, we know better now. We don't treat dysmorphics by cutting off their limbs, or depressed people by endorsing suicide. Listen to detransitioners to see how transition can do more harm than good. And that's not even to touch on the experimental nature of transition and the ill-understood long term effects.

The majority of people, especially young people, get over dysphoria with time.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (19 children)

Transition isn’t expiramental. It’s been near on 90 years since bottom surgery was first practiced. There’s nothing unsettled or novel about it.

And “lifelong patients” don’t produce as much money as you seem to think they do. Aside from the one time surgical expenses I pay less than 30 dollars a month for medications. This reads like a conspiracy theory.

And I know at least one detransitioner in fact. She’s perfectly supportive of trans people and isn’t in any way anti transition. Just because Kiera Bell is interested in being a professional transphobe isn’t a basis for policy.

[–]comradeconradical 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

How dismissive of Keira Bell and others who have suffered due to the very real impact of poorly implemented affirmative gender policy, as well as the lifelong consequences of being allowed to alter your body in your youth. "Professional transphobe" for being strong enough to bring the medical malpractice and faulty policies to light? Disgusting of you to say, but I know you are for transing kids, so....

Sure, surgeries have been around, but they are still experimental. Only recently have they become more normalized, but we still don't know long term effects, particularly of artificial cross hormone use. Hormones are meant to cycle, not be kept at levels the body doesn't naturally sustain, especially for cross-sex hormones. Women are getting cancers and other illnesses in connection to artificially elevated T, and I remember seeing emerging long term effects of males on E too. But do you really care about these consequences, or do you just want unmitigated access no matter the impact?

You also have to remember it's not one person getting hormones at that price, it's more and more people who may or may not have a real disorder because, as stated about Keira Bell, the industry is designed to push people through quickly and make money. This money aggregates from every individual to create a very profitable industry. It's not conspiracy, it's economics.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (17 children)

You are spinning a wild conspiracy theory. It’s no more a money making scheme than any other medical company under capitalism.

As I said it’s been almost 90 years since the first known vaginoplasty was performed on a trans woman. This isn’t new and there’s been plenty of time to see those effects. Trans men are likely understudied but the solution is study not to prevent the only known effective treatment in favor of hoping someone invents something better or it magically stops.

Kiera Bell has devoted herself to making it impossible for others to get necessary care because she regrets her own mistake and minor celebrity. It’s shameful and I couldn’t have less respect for her.

[–]comradeconradical 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (16 children)

That's the thing: for many, particularly children, this 'care' is NOT necessary.

We shall have to agree to disagree on the corruption of the industry.

ETA: Just because doctors have made holes out of penises does not mean they have successfully created a vagina on a male, which is why I say it's experimental. So many will claim there is no discernable difference, but that is extremely misleading and false. Sex change is not possible, and surgeries and measures to attempt to do so are experimental. Also, again you ignore anything I say that impacts women and children detrimentally, concerning long term effects and unrealistic expectations.

ETA: Love how you blame Keira for a mistake she made as a teenager that will now have life long consequences, instead of seeing how the industry enabled and encouraged this mistake, and that there iwll be countless more in her shoes if we continue endorsing the unquestioned transition of minors.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

It isn’t experimental. And at least in my experience was in no way misrepresented by doctors. I was told in great detail what the operation entailed and what to expect and got exactly that. Doctors aren’t telling patients that they are indistinguishable because they aren’t. Any misinformation is coming from online communities full of a lot of people who have no idea what those surgeries are actually like.

I acknowledged that effects on trans men should be studied more, but also that stopping the only effective treatment hoping something better Magic’s itself up is cruel at best.

Also no one is giving 9 year olds cross sex hormones. And blockers are considered safe and reversible by the general medical community. A 16 year old can be trusted to drive a car they should be trusted with their own conception of self so far as I’m concerned and nothing permanent is happening until then, at the earliest. I’ve also never said it shouldn’t be questioned. Particularly for minors psychiatric screening should absolutely be required.

[–]comradeconradical 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

"this never happens" is your entire argument, for both uninformed surgeries and the transing of minors, and yet we can easily find countless accounts that these things do indeed happen.

I'm glad you were fully informed, and I'm glad transition worked for you. I hope you find it in yourself to feel compassion for those who are not so fortunate, and that you can consider how transition is likely not the best route for the majority.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (10 children)

It isn’t the best route for people who don’t have dysphoria. That’s why I am Dor psych evaluation before anything medical, especially for a minor. But actually dysphoric people don’t get better without transition. If they did people wouldn’t be allowed to transition, because society generally abhors our existence. If there was another way, we’d be made to do it

[–]BiologyIsReal 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

GnRH agonists (aka "puberty blockers") are not safe and reversible. The only reason why transactivists say they are reversible is because their use in precocious puberty. However, children with precocious puberty and children with gender dysphoria are very diferent populations and so it is the way GnRHa are used with them. In the case of precocious puberty, the drugs are withdrawn so the kids can experience puberty about the same time as their peers. In contrast, children with gender dysphoria are delaying their development in comparisson with their peers. We don't know all possible effects that this may have on them, but because sex hormones are important for bone and brain development we can expect that at those may be affected at least. In fact, Tavistock's own data shows that the children's bone density has been compromised. If followed by cross-sex hormones, then there is the possibility of infertility and sexual disfunction.

Furthermore, despite "puberty blockers" being sold as a pause button, nearly all of the children taking them progress to cross sex hormones, with all the health complications that arise from their use. That is despite that before the "affirmative treatment" became the standard most children who identified as trans ended up aceppting their own sex. Given that questioning a pacient's "gender identity" has became taboo, it's doubtful that doctors are that good at determining which children would keep their trans identity as adults.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

In fact, Tavistock's own data shows that the children's bone density has been compromised. If followed by cross-sex hormones, then there is the possibility of infertility and sexual disfunction (in trans women at any rate, I don’t know anything about Hrt for trans men). Nothing new.

Those are all established risks of Hrt alone in trans women.

Blockers are accepted medical practice. And are considered reversible by the medical community. This isn’t trans people making claims, it’s what the doctors are saying.

Furthermore, despite "puberty blockers" being sold as a pause button, nearly all of the children taking them progress to cross sex hormones,

That suggests accuracy in diagnostics not a failure.