QT- The intersex/hermaphroditism comparisons and examples

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[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (17 children)

You are spinning a wild conspiracy theory. It’s no more a money making scheme than any other medical company under capitalism.

As I said it’s been almost 90 years since the first known vaginoplasty was performed on a trans woman. This isn’t new and there’s been plenty of time to see those effects. Trans men are likely understudied but the solution is study not to prevent the only known effective treatment in favor of hoping someone invents something better or it magically stops.

Kiera Bell has devoted herself to making it impossible for others to get necessary care because she regrets her own mistake and minor celebrity. It’s shameful and I couldn’t have less respect for her.

[–]comradeconradical 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (16 children)

That's the thing: for many, particularly children, this 'care' is NOT necessary.

We shall have to agree to disagree on the corruption of the industry.

ETA: Just because doctors have made holes out of penises does not mean they have successfully created a vagina on a male, which is why I say it's experimental. So many will claim there is no discernable difference, but that is extremely misleading and false. Sex change is not possible, and surgeries and measures to attempt to do so are experimental. Also, again you ignore anything I say that impacts women and children detrimentally, concerning long term effects and unrealistic expectations.

ETA: Love how you blame Keira for a mistake she made as a teenager that will now have life long consequences, instead of seeing how the industry enabled and encouraged this mistake, and that there iwll be countless more in her shoes if we continue endorsing the unquestioned transition of minors.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

It isn’t experimental. And at least in my experience was in no way misrepresented by doctors. I was told in great detail what the operation entailed and what to expect and got exactly that. Doctors aren’t telling patients that they are indistinguishable because they aren’t. Any misinformation is coming from online communities full of a lot of people who have no idea what those surgeries are actually like.

I acknowledged that effects on trans men should be studied more, but also that stopping the only effective treatment hoping something better Magic’s itself up is cruel at best.

Also no one is giving 9 year olds cross sex hormones. And blockers are considered safe and reversible by the general medical community. A 16 year old can be trusted to drive a car they should be trusted with their own conception of self so far as I’m concerned and nothing permanent is happening until then, at the earliest. I’ve also never said it shouldn’t be questioned. Particularly for minors psychiatric screening should absolutely be required.

[–]comradeconradical 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

"this never happens" is your entire argument, for both uninformed surgeries and the transing of minors, and yet we can easily find countless accounts that these things do indeed happen.

I'm glad you were fully informed, and I'm glad transition worked for you. I hope you find it in yourself to feel compassion for those who are not so fortunate, and that you can consider how transition is likely not the best route for the majority.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (10 children)

It isn’t the best route for people who don’t have dysphoria. That’s why I am Dor psych evaluation before anything medical, especially for a minor. But actually dysphoric people don’t get better without transition. If they did people wouldn’t be allowed to transition, because society generally abhors our existence. If there was another way, we’d be made to do it

[–]comradeconradical 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Like I said earlier and as studies have shown, the vast majority of youth who have dysphoria outgrow it. So no, transition would not be ideal, even for those with dysphoria. Also that truth directly undermines your view that dysphoria is impossible to overcome and live with. People have survived much worse. There are other ways of treatment as well, but no one is allowing research to be done as it questions trans ideology, which we all know only terfs do /s.

Society doesn't hate you. In most cases, I think society doesn't give a damn about any of us. Sounds like you have a victim-complex, and claiming transition is the only treatment is both false and pernicious.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

As someone who has been attacked by a group and who lost a job and was homeless directly because I was trans, I’m going to go ahead and challenge your assertion that society doesn’t hate trans people.

As I understand it you are referring to a study done on young children not teens and nothing irreversible happens before then anyway. Comparing childhood development to non childhood minds is apples and oranges.

[–]comradeconradical 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Your individual experience is just that, individual. Other non-trans people have also experienced these struggles.

I'm talking teenagers, who are also minors.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Other non-trans people have also experienced these struggles.

Sure. There are a lot of different types of bigots out there. The difference is is someone says something negative about gay people or a particular race, they are decried by most of society whereas transphobia is generally just allowed.

To my knowledge there has never been a study on teenage desistance. So you appear to either be misinterpreting a study or making up a statistic.

[–]comradeconradical 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Lol are you serious? I don't know where you live, but people walk on eggshells about trans issues. People are fired for believing in sex. Trans people are afforded special privileges. The power the word transphobia has in shutting things down looks like power, not prosecution of trans. "Generally allowed" please, homosexuals are more oppressed throughout the world than trans people are, or have you not considered how places like Iran prefer a person being trans than gay or GNC? OR how women's voices are silenced in the name of trans? Are you uninformed or just ignorant?

And actually I know there is research on this, and I have heard countless voices on the topic, so observationally yes most teens and children desist. You are aware that research into transition and detransition is extremely limited due to lobbying and calls of transphobia? Which again shows the power of these claims.

[–]BiologyIsReal 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

GnRH agonists (aka "puberty blockers") are not safe and reversible. The only reason why transactivists say they are reversible is because their use in precocious puberty. However, children with precocious puberty and children with gender dysphoria are very diferent populations and so it is the way GnRHa are used with them. In the case of precocious puberty, the drugs are withdrawn so the kids can experience puberty about the same time as their peers. In contrast, children with gender dysphoria are delaying their development in comparisson with their peers. We don't know all possible effects that this may have on them, but because sex hormones are important for bone and brain development we can expect that at those may be affected at least. In fact, Tavistock's own data shows that the children's bone density has been compromised. If followed by cross-sex hormones, then there is the possibility of infertility and sexual disfunction.

Furthermore, despite "puberty blockers" being sold as a pause button, nearly all of the children taking them progress to cross sex hormones, with all the health complications that arise from their use. That is despite that before the "affirmative treatment" became the standard most children who identified as trans ended up aceppting their own sex. Given that questioning a pacient's "gender identity" has became taboo, it's doubtful that doctors are that good at determining which children would keep their trans identity as adults.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

In fact, Tavistock's own data shows that the children's bone density has been compromised. If followed by cross-sex hormones, then there is the possibility of infertility and sexual disfunction (in trans women at any rate, I don’t know anything about Hrt for trans men). Nothing new.

Those are all established risks of Hrt alone in trans women.

Blockers are accepted medical practice. And are considered reversible by the medical community. This isn’t trans people making claims, it’s what the doctors are saying.

Furthermore, despite "puberty blockers" being sold as a pause button, nearly all of the children taking them progress to cross sex hormones,

That suggests accuracy in diagnostics not a failure.

[–]BiologyIsReal 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

(in trans women at any rate, I don’t know anything about Hrt for trans men). Nothing new. Those are all established risks of Hrt alone in trans women.

You don't think that stoping puberty in natal females and given them amounts of testosterone above the normal range for females may have an impact in their reproductive systems?

If adults want to take these drugs, fine. But, we're talking about children (whether they are male or female), who aren't able to consent to this, here.

Blockers are accepted medical practice. And are considered reversible by the medical community. This isn’t trans people making claims, it’s what the doctors are saying.

They are not reversible and I already explained to you why. The doctors pushing them care more about ideology and profits than science or ethics and, yes, this is thanks to transactivists lobbying.

That suggests accuracy in diagnostics not a failure.

Why don't you quote the full paragraph? Here it is again. Despite "puberty blockers" being sold as a pause button, nearly all of the children taking them progress to cross sex hormones, with all the health complications that arise from their use. That is despite that before the "affirmative treatment" became the standard most children who identified as trans ended up aceppting their own sex. Given that questioning a pacient's "gender identity" has became taboo, it's doubtful that doctors are that good at determining which children would keep their trans identity as adults.