QT: A question of ideology

submitted by loveSloaneDebate King from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (73 children)

Men can’t be made safe for us. They will always be the ones harming us and the ones that pose a danger to us. They can’t be “educated”.

I’m talking about the realistic implications of your ideas. Those other spaces don’t exists this other rights don’t exist, so when you argue for us to be entirely reclassified without putting those things in place you are arguing for us to be stripped of rights. You are harming us and then justifying it by saying you wouldn’t object if we somehow magically rebuilt the entirety of society’s infrastructure. If you aren’t going to work to replace the rights and facilities you want to strip us of, you are just arguing for us to be hurt and then denying it by hiding behind a hypothetical.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (72 children)

So you can’t argue at all against the ideology and have to bring the discussion around to your only argument; all women must do X for a small group of men who have no power to protect themselves, despite the fact that women are harmed more often by men.

This refrain was tired when you constantly dragged any discussion to it when there was a subreddit. Bust something else out of the vault.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Incidentally, did you know only 37 trans people* were killed in our (mine and masks) country last year? And that almost all of them are poc and or sex workers? And that many of the murders had nothing to do with the victim being trans? And also that none of those cases had anything to do with some random transphobe just deciding to go out and find a trans person to kill? In each instance I came across, it was either an unintended victim or there was some type of connection that existed before the homicide. Which to me suggest that overwhelmingly, “cis men” are more than content to leave TW alone.

Just thought it was an interesting thing I read.

I’ll pop on out of your thread now :)

*that number is a combination of trans and otherwise gnc individuals, it’s also considered a surge in numbers.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

A particularly good point!

Terrifyingly, I have known about the same number of women throughout my life who have been assaulted, raped, battered, stalked, threatened, held financially hostage, and/or emotionally abused specifically because they were women.

And yet masks claims it is the responsibility of these women to make men behave more kindly to a subgroup of men. Un-fucking-believable.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (69 children)

But you aren’t arguing for doing nothing. You are arguing for us to be deprived of what rights and access we have. You are taking an active role. When you create harm doesn’t it create a moral imperative to ameliorative it.

And you are well aware I would prefer things like single occupancy facilities. (Because of course trans only things don’t work) and I would also be for explicit protections for that didn’t rely on interpretation. But neither of those things exist in numbers to actually fill the needs of trans people. And you are arguing that we should lose what we have on the idea that it is okay to take it since we would have your permission to build infrastructure or gain rights we’ve never been able to. You are arguing from a position that would result in harming us

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (68 children)

Where? I am arguing that whilst needing to be a seperate category from women, transwomen deserve and have the right to safety and community in third spaces. What about that infringes on your rights?

Name the right, even, instead of just crying the same presumably copy+pasted accusation.

Where am I taking an active role in hurting you? What do I do day to day, you magical clairvoyant?

When you create harm doesn’t it create a moral imperative to ameliorative it.

No? Morals aren’t even universal so that’s just silly. Also, if this is the case, what are you doing personally to ameliorate the harm done to women by males taking their spaces?

As you are well aware, it’s pointless to try and convince me that it is a woman’s role to protect a category of men. That sentiment is entirely misogynistic and always will be. Women can’t stop men from hurting us, how do you think we’re gonna magically fix shit for you without giving up our own protection?

It’s particularly bizarre to constantly accuse me of causing the state of affairs for transgender people in America. Like, I can’t even vote there but you expect me to fix shit for you there? I’m far FAR more concerned with the thousands of beaten women in my own country, thanks.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (67 children)

Where? I am arguing that whilst needing to be a seperate category from women, transwomen deserve and have the right to safety and community in third spaces. What about that infringes on your rights?

But doing nothing to create those despite trying to strip us of what rights and access we have. And third spaces work for necessary spaces but you can’t have trans only “community” it doesn’t work because community required a social element.

Name the right, even, instead of just crying the same presumably copy+pasted accusation.

Literally all of them but employment. All the school protections that have come up in the circuit courts are based on the women’s protections in title 9 for instance.

No? Morals aren’t even universal so that’s just silly.

So you stab someone you don’t think you are morally required to keep them from dying more than a stranger who stumbles on the stabbing victim,?

what are you doing personally to ameliorate the harm done to women by males taking their spaces?

Supporting women’s shelters and harsher penalties for domestic violence and sex crimes despite generally advocating for substantially reduced sentences for most other crimes for the be. But also I’m not actually doing anything to expose women to harm so that’s not out of obligation.

As you are well aware, it’s pointless to try and convince me that it is a woman’s role to protect a category of men.

Trans women aren’t men, you are trying to change our classification to men. That’s what’s creating the harm requiring us to be newly protected. You are the ones engineering us to be in danger then arguing it isn’t your responsibility. Men are doing the harm but you are still causing it

Women can’t stop men from hurting us, how do you think we’re gonna magically fix shit for you without giving up our own protection?

You’ve got a better chance than we do and I’m not advocating to make it more likely for men to hurt you but you are advocating for men to be able to hurt us.

It’s particularly bizarre to constantly accuse me of causing the state of affairs for transgender people in America.

You are advocating for changes that would cause the harm. So if it were enacted based on your advocacy it would be your responsibility. How would it not be?

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (66 children)

You just straight up ignore things like “I’m not American and can’t change your shit laws” and “ideology” dontcha?

Sorry all the rights isn’t recognised as a right? Can’t find it in a single charter.

Transwomen are men. Because men means nothing more than born male. What you choose to believe on top of that is your own business.

And no, if I stabbed someone, I’m not obliged to help them. If I’ve stabbed someone I’m in fact almost definitely not there to help them in any capacity because I’m stabbing them lmfao. What a stupid scenario to try and shame my morals

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (65 children)

You are still arguing for it. Whether you can vote on it isn’t material.

Trans women aren’t men. In body, in the way society treats them, power, all wildly disparate.

And no, if I stabbed someone, I’m not obliged to help them.

Then I consider you fundamentally a moral and there’s no point in further conversation

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (29 children)

Lmao so stabbing someone isn’t amoral but not helping them is. You are too much.

You can’t tackle my ideology in any capacity so yet again resort to blaming me personally and making up bizarre moral quandaries to judge me by as if it’s relevant or actually reflective of who I am.

I find you fundamentally misogynistic but I’m sure you’ll argue that my findings aren’t allowed but you’re free to call me fundamentally amoral over one extremely foolish question.

Should you gain the ability to argue the things actually important or relevant is maybe care about your dismissal. As it stands, your dismissal is a very thin veil for your total lack of actual arguments in favour of a round about ad hominem. Learn to argue mate.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (28 children)

Lmao so stabbing someone isn’t amoral but not helping them is. You are too much.

Of course stabbing someone is immoral but not helping them when you’ve injured them makes it worse.

If you can’t even agree that creating harm causes a moral obligation to cure it there is no way we can have an actual conversation about morality.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (27 children)

You can’t have a conversation about morality with any disagreement. That’s on you and your closed mind.

For the rest of us, morals are complex, nuanced, and thankfully not a black and white dogma so thick that strangers can be called totally amoral over a single daft scenario.

What if the person I stabbed was raping me? Stabbing a box of puppies? Slashing at a little old lady?

What if I’m a soldier? Or a severely abused child with CPTSD interpreting a threat to my life? What if I was on PCP? Or having a psychotic break?

For someone who says there is no further point to conversation you sure do bang on about your supposed moral superiority a lot. Notable that you once again ignore the parts of my comments where you can’t form an argument. This is such a tired method of showing your poor faith and poor debate skills.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (34 children)

Why would anyone help someone they stabbed? I don’t get it.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

It’s okay to harm people as long as you make a show of slowing the bleeding.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (32 children)

Because when you cause harm you have a responsibility to lessen it. That and the inherent value of human life?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

So is the rapist supposed to ice the vagina/anus of the person they raped and bandage any scraps from any fighting off?

Are you serious?

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

The life of the rapists who was raping me at knifepoint and planned to kill me once he was done is so valuable I should avoid seeking help for myself or protect myself further, and should instead provide first aid to the person who five minutes ago was going to gut me like a pig after R A P I N G M E.

Why is this rapists life so valuable that I should endanger mine? What makes this despicable man so much more important than the woman he has attacked?