QT: A question of ideology

submitted by loveSloaneDebate King from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (114 children)

It isn’t an exception. If you are against gay marriage you are wrong, whether you think marriage should only be between a man and woman or not. Arguing for us to be treated as lesser is the same. And yes that’s exactly what you are doing when you advocate for us to be treated as men when we are clearly marginalized in a way they are not.

[–]SnowAssMan 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

See, you just implied that gay men aren't men. transgendered males experience transphobia – so does anyone who is GNC, it doesn't offset male privilege. the trans population is just as sexist & androcentric as any other microcosm.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (15 children)

I didn’t say or imply that gay men weren’t men. I said it was wrong to be against gay marriage.

[–]SnowAssMan 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

SEXism & male privilege exist, even within the trans population, therefore trans-womxyn are no more marginalised than any other marginalised group of men. They are as much the privileged majority within their microcosm as gay men & black men are in theirs.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (13 children)

That’s not even accurate. At the minimum trans women women who pass are treated societally as women and trans men who pass are treated societally as men. This means that at least some level of male privilege is shifted since socially some are treated as who they are by society. Not to mention trans men are more “socially acceptable” than trans women because masculinity is seen as a laudable state generally.

[–]SnowAssMan 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

More wishful thinking on your part. Fact is, trans-womxyn outnumber trans-men in media representation, high positions & the public-sphere in general (no matter how much either passes), just like gay men compared to lesbians. It's the same exact sexist, patriarchal structure you see everywhere. It turns out socialised gender > felt gender once again. You could argue that the homophobia that gay men receive is worse than what lesbians do – so what? Again, it still doesn't offset male privilege.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (11 children)

That’s not even accurate. Sure Laverne Cox is famous and Jamie Clayton had one show (produced and directed by a trans woman mind you) but more people would recognize Chaz Bono than Jamie Clayton.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Are we ignoring “Pose”, the L Word reboot, Paris is Burning, the many films about transwomen (though not played by transwomen, all transmen have is Boys Don’t Cry), etc? The fact that if a trans storyline is in a show, it’s significantly more likely to be a TW than a TM? The only shows I can think of that had TM storylines are the original L Word, Shameless (which included a very awkward sexual coercion plot line), and maybe you could count Good Girls.

But it’s not just scripted media- transwomen are much more prevalent on social media platforms, sports, politics, more people would recognize Chaz Bono than Jamie Clayton- because Chaz is Cher’s daughter and her transition was very public- that doesn’t mean that the public would recognize chaz over Laverne, Indya Moore, Blaire White, Tiffany (it’s ma’am), Alexis Arquette, Nikita Dragun, NikkiTutorials, the Wachowski “sisters”, Caitlyn Jenner, Jazz Jennings...

Only other well known transman i can think of is Buck Angel

That’s just entertainment, I haven’t listed anyone from politics or sports (except Jenner)

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Pose is mostly about cis drag queens and other gay cis men. Other than MJ are there even any trans women in it? Even then how many people would recognize her. Same for Paris is Burning as far as I know, I’ve never seen it. And as you noted most of the stories involving trans women aren’t played by trans women and are generally extremely negative (like that Matt Bomer abomination)

Trans men have some representation, often by cis people as well. (Adam from Degrassi, Tony on Orphan Black, Max from the L word for instance) . Afab people generally have more since most genderqueer characters are Afab. (Ex: Yael from Degrassi and Sid from One day at a time)

I suspect you have a warped perception because of your hypervigilence about trans women.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Clearly you haven’t seen Pose if you think the show is more about the two gay guys that are somewhat main characters than the 5 TW... like seriously there’s no way that makes any sense it’s applauded for being a show about transwomen, it was developed by RM and A transwoman with the intent to tell the stories of transwomen. One non trans male is the MC, the other one’s storyline is literally being “adopted” by MJ and helping MJ compete in their competitions against another house comprised mostly of transwomen. Even a quick google shows the point of the show and that you are wrong lol

And Pose was inspired and heavily based on Paris is Burning which again follows mainly 3-4 TW as well as a few other TW who aren’t as heavily featured, though it does include interviews with gay men, the focus is clearly the TW. It opens and closes with them, you see more of their life than the non trans males. I just... If you haven’t seen either just say that rather than pretend that you know what it’s about to prove a point. To ask if there are other TW in Pose is just a huge tell that you haven’t seen it. Just google the posters, I don’t even know that Billy Porter is featured on most of them lol. It’s definitely a show about TW in the 80’s, and Pray Tell is featured as a semi main character because it’s Billy Fucking Porter and the audience loves him.

I don’t have a warped perception- even transwomen in that Netflix documentary acknowledge that TW are more prevalent in the media, though they complain they are misrepresented even when they play themselves...

And you’ve said nothing about all other forms of media? I agree there’s tm representation I never said there wasn’t- what I said and the other poster said is that TW are much more prevalent regardless of who is playing them, stories including them are seen more often. This is something that transmen can acknowledge and quite a few transwomen acknowledge as well. I don’t go out and look for tv shows with tw- these are all shows I was either already watching or watched because I like the creator and or some cast members’ work outside of the show/movie.

  • and considering how many “people of the year” type covers the cast has, I’d assume quite a few people would recognize the cast. But the point isn’t who’s recognized, tho if it were, I see your Chaz Bono and raise you a much more recognized Laverne Cox, And the youtubers i listed. Just because you compared chaz to Jamie doesn’t mean that the TW who are recognized don’t outnumber the TM

[–]SnowAssMan 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It doesn't matter what type of media you're looking at, trans-womxyn outnumber trans-men, whether it's Hollywood movies, or Youtube videos. In the case of "Lefttube", trans-womxyn even outnumber women. This is why accusations by trans-womxyn of women's supposed "cis privilege" is a sexist reversal of the power dynamic.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Also, let's not pretend that representation in entertainment media is the real or sole litmus test. Plenty of older trans-identified males are in incredibly powerful positions in society. Such as tech executive Martine Rothblatt - long famous for being "the highest paid woman in America" - billionaire heir and ex military man Jennifer Pritzker, and the much-honored writer and historian Jan Morris, who died in November at age 94. Morris spent nearly half a century as a "transwoman" and suffered no negative repercussions for it. On the contrary, Morris was constantly lionized, praised and given prestigious positions, publishing contracts and awards.

[–]SnowAssMan 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transgender_characters_in_film_and_television

Compare the shorter list of trans-men characters to the substantially longer list of trans-womxyn characters. So there, trans-womxyn outnumber trans-men in media. Case closed.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (96 children)

It’s a whole new year and I don’t have the energy to pretend that this is even close to the topic. This is not an answer to what I asked and honestly I’ve reached a point with you where if you can’t even be bothered to address what I’m saying Im not gonna bother to feed into the BS and attempt to dissect what you’re saying to make it semi relevant some how. I’m done with you accusing me of shit just because you can’t address what I’m actually saying. And I’m done with your false equivalencies. If you ever want to actually debate on topic, I’ll respond. Otherwise-

Have a nice day, happy new year masks

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (95 children)

You asked

So I’m asking: Why is gender ideology the exception to that?

I answered that question directly, because it isn’t an exception at all.

Don’t address my point if you don’t want but at least stop pretending I’m not addressing the question.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

You literally answered nothing and brought up gay marriage as a poor analogy. Anybody looking at this thread will see that and I’m not wasting the effort trying to make it clear to you that you haven’t addressed the topic when I know everyone else can see what I see. You’re not addressing shit, and I’m done feeding your narcissistic soap box, so as I said- have a nice day masks, happy new year.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

You always ignore my points and resort to petty insults. What do you get out of this?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 9 insightful - 4 fun9 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

Lmao have a nice day, happy new year masks

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (91 children)

So non-adherence to your ideology about gender is just wrong?

You pathologically hate males so anyone who disagrees is objectively wrong?

Lmao no. Masks, no.

You might as well be saying we are objectively wrong about having immortal souls.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (90 children)

Arguing For a group to be stripped of the rights they have and denied agency in their own identities is wrong. Yes.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (89 children)

I am not arguing for the stripping of anyone’s rights though. I am arguing that I am not morally, legally, or in any other way obliged to force myself to see people a way I do not. IE, seeing males as women.

I am not obliged to view males the way you do and am not stripping anyone’s rights away by not doing so.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (88 children)

That’s ignoring the implications. If trans women are simply men they would then have no protections and no facilities they can actually use. The implications of your stance is us having no rights.

[–]SnowAssMan 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

"Rights". Men have got rights, gay men too. What additional "rights" do the transgendered ones require? The right to endlessly seesaw between erasing the female sex & appropriating it? Seeing trans-womxyn as men doesn't indirectly strip them of any rights, seeing them as women strips away at women's rights. Calling trans-womxyn women rids both women & trans-womxyn of definitions, making the whole thing redundant. It'd end up with us just going back to distinguishing between the sexes again anyway.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

What additional "rights" do the transgendered ones require?

Protection from discrimination in employment, housing, education, access to business and common carriers, access to essential services, and protections from discrimination in health care. In America on a national level we have exactly one of those.

Seeing trans-womxyn as men doesn't indirectly strip them of any rights

Yes. It does. Because of the way the few rights we’ve cobbled together have arisen in the courts.

seeing them as women strips away at women's rights.

No. It doesn’t. Women’s legal rights are entirely unchanged.

Calling trans-womxyn women rids both women & trans-womxyn of definitions

This is still offensive and childish. Stop trying to invent your own slur.

It'd end up with us just going back to distinguishing between the sexes again anyway.

Sex and gender are different. You want us grouped by sex which is why you would group me with men. I expressly don’t want to be grouped with men for a litany of reasons, the most important of which is that we are so different that to do so creates a myriad of legal problems and leaves us at the mercy of the unquestionable most powerful and dangerous form of humanity, and the one that does harm to us by a huge margin, men.

[–]SnowAssMan 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

The best way to protect trans rights is to have them tied to trans status, obviously. If trans-men just get men's rights, then they have no rights that address their specific needs. Why should affirming this ideology come before all else? Oh right, trans-men are female i.e. not your concern.

Sex and gender are different

But the genders are not different, that's the point. Distinguishing between the sexes is justified, distinguishing between genders isn't, since anyone can be anything.

I expressly don’t want to be grouped with men

Women expressly don't want to be grouped with men either, nobody does, why on Earth should over 50% of the population's rights be compromised for 0.2% of the population though, especially when we don't discriminate based on orientation? Purge all the gynaephilic "trans-womxyn" from the movement first – that demographic alone is responsible for all the trans on female violent & sexual crimes. Keeping trans people separate from men is one thing (except trans-men apparently???), but grouping trans-womxyn in with women is completely unjustified. Even grouping gay men with women would make more sense, since none of them are gynaephlles.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Sex and gender are different. You want us grouped by sex which is why you would group me with men. I expressly don’t want to be grouped with men for a litany of reasons, the most important of which is that we are so different that to do so creates a myriad of legal problems and leaves us at the mercy of the unquestionable most powerful and dangerous form of humanity, and the one that does harm to us by a huge margin, men.

So why not campaign for your own spaces, provisions and protections then instead of horning in on other people's? That's what women, people with physical disabilities and the elderly had to do. How come trans people get to barge in and claim women's hard-won spaces, provisions and sports for their own?

Also, why is it okay for trans identified males to be afraid of other males and want spaces away from them, but it's bigoted and "transphobic" for female people to do the same?

In most cities, there are separate lanes in streets for buses, cars and bicycles, and the sidewalks are for pedestrians and people in prams and wheelchairs. Whenever new forms of transport and recreation come along - skateboards, roller blades, Segways, razor scooters, electric scooters, seated motorized mobility scooters for disabled people (all of which have arrived on the scene within my own lifetime) - municipalities and communities have to get together and decide where the new devices belong.

But a majority of trans people today don't want to be held to the same rules and community decision-making processes as everyone else - they want to be able to go wherever they want whenever they want simply because they demand and insist upon it. The position of many trans people is essentially that if they want to drive a bus or car on the sidewalk or in the bike lane, that's their right. Who cares how many people they mow down and how many rights belonging to others they trample and remove in the process?

Trans activists love to tell others to "stay in your lane" but they don't want to have to carve out a lane for themselves, nor stick to their own lane once it's created.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (80 children)

They would have all the rights other males have. Transwomen also have the option of protections and facilities for themselves, seperate from males who are not transwomen.

Homosexual men are men who need and can access protections despite them being simply men. Why is it different for men who perform femininity/identify as a woman/whatever? What about males being recognised as males makes it impossible for transwomen to be a group of males with certain potential vulnerabilities to other males?

I’m all for discrimination protection for transgender people on the basis of their being transgender. It shouldn’t be reason alone to fire someone, or reject them as a renter, or to deny healthcare that is needed.

Not seeing transwomen as females/women does not deny transwomen any rights. It’s nothing more or less than the statement. It does not mean transgender people should lose any rights.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (79 children)

They would have all the rights other males have.

Which is no protections. Since any discrimination would be based on being trans not being male.

Transwomen also have the option of protections and facilities for themselves, seperate from males who are not transwomen.

Trans only facilities don’t exist though. This is a thought expirament at best. Separate facilities would be my preference in an ideal world but don’t exist.

Transwomen also have the option of protections and facilities for themselves, seperate from males who are not transwomen.

Which they have at least gained some of. You are actively arguing to fully negate any protections trans women have gained. That’s exactly my point. If trans women are “just men” then it would negate the basis for every protection we have managed to scrape together.

Transwomen also have the option of protections and facilities for themselves, seperate from males who are not transwomen.

But those protections don’t exist generally and where they are it’s on the basis we are protected as member of our identified gender.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (78 children)

It’s all the protections, plus legal protection against discrimination specifically for being trans. What more could possibly be asked for? It maintains the rights of transgender people and women.

Make them. This issue has been done to death with you. Recognising transwomen as male removes your protections how specifically? What about someone seeing a male as a male makes it suddenly impossible for that person to be protected by aforementioned legal protections?

And transwomen have absolutely zero business in spaces based on their gender. Their sex is male and their self perception should never allow them into spaces for female people.

My ideas provide protection for women’s spaces and women as a category, whilst still calling for legal protection from discrimination for men who is as women, plus advocates for spaces for those men to use safely.

Name the right being stripped away here. Full protections in place. The only thing you wouldn’t get is something you already don’t have, which is control over anyone else’s perception. Nobody can force others to see them as something they are not.