QT: A question of ideology

submitted by loveSloaneDebate King from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]SnowAssMan 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

See, you just implied that gay men aren't men. transgendered males experience transphobia – so does anyone who is GNC, it doesn't offset male privilege. the trans population is just as sexist & androcentric as any other microcosm.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (15 children)

I didn’t say or imply that gay men weren’t men. I said it was wrong to be against gay marriage.

[–]SnowAssMan 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

SEXism & male privilege exist, even within the trans population, therefore trans-womxyn are no more marginalised than any other marginalised group of men. They are as much the privileged majority within their microcosm as gay men & black men are in theirs.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (13 children)

That’s not even accurate. At the minimum trans women women who pass are treated societally as women and trans men who pass are treated societally as men. This means that at least some level of male privilege is shifted since socially some are treated as who they are by society. Not to mention trans men are more “socially acceptable” than trans women because masculinity is seen as a laudable state generally.

[–]SnowAssMan 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

More wishful thinking on your part. Fact is, trans-womxyn outnumber trans-men in media representation, high positions & the public-sphere in general (no matter how much either passes), just like gay men compared to lesbians. It's the same exact sexist, patriarchal structure you see everywhere. It turns out socialised gender > felt gender once again. You could argue that the homophobia that gay men receive is worse than what lesbians do – so what? Again, it still doesn't offset male privilege.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (11 children)

That’s not even accurate. Sure Laverne Cox is famous and Jamie Clayton had one show (produced and directed by a trans woman mind you) but more people would recognize Chaz Bono than Jamie Clayton.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Are we ignoring “Pose”, the L Word reboot, Paris is Burning, the many films about transwomen (though not played by transwomen, all transmen have is Boys Don’t Cry), etc? The fact that if a trans storyline is in a show, it’s significantly more likely to be a TW than a TM? The only shows I can think of that had TM storylines are the original L Word, Shameless (which included a very awkward sexual coercion plot line), and maybe you could count Good Girls.

But it’s not just scripted media- transwomen are much more prevalent on social media platforms, sports, politics, more people would recognize Chaz Bono than Jamie Clayton- because Chaz is Cher’s daughter and her transition was very public- that doesn’t mean that the public would recognize chaz over Laverne, Indya Moore, Blaire White, Tiffany (it’s ma’am), Alexis Arquette, Nikita Dragun, NikkiTutorials, the Wachowski “sisters”, Caitlyn Jenner, Jazz Jennings...

Only other well known transman i can think of is Buck Angel

That’s just entertainment, I haven’t listed anyone from politics or sports (except Jenner)

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Pose is mostly about cis drag queens and other gay cis men. Other than MJ are there even any trans women in it? Even then how many people would recognize her. Same for Paris is Burning as far as I know, I’ve never seen it. And as you noted most of the stories involving trans women aren’t played by trans women and are generally extremely negative (like that Matt Bomer abomination)

Trans men have some representation, often by cis people as well. (Adam from Degrassi, Tony on Orphan Black, Max from the L word for instance) . Afab people generally have more since most genderqueer characters are Afab. (Ex: Yael from Degrassi and Sid from One day at a time)

I suspect you have a warped perception because of your hypervigilence about trans women.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Clearly you haven’t seen Pose if you think the show is more about the two gay guys that are somewhat main characters than the 5 TW... like seriously there’s no way that makes any sense it’s applauded for being a show about transwomen, it was developed by RM and A transwoman with the intent to tell the stories of transwomen. One non trans male is the MC, the other one’s storyline is literally being “adopted” by MJ and helping MJ compete in their competitions against another house comprised mostly of transwomen. Even a quick google shows the point of the show and that you are wrong lol

And Pose was inspired and heavily based on Paris is Burning which again follows mainly 3-4 TW as well as a few other TW who aren’t as heavily featured, though it does include interviews with gay men, the focus is clearly the TW. It opens and closes with them, you see more of their life than the non trans males. I just... If you haven’t seen either just say that rather than pretend that you know what it’s about to prove a point. To ask if there are other TW in Pose is just a huge tell that you haven’t seen it. Just google the posters, I don’t even know that Billy Porter is featured on most of them lol. It’s definitely a show about TW in the 80’s, and Pray Tell is featured as a semi main character because it’s Billy Fucking Porter and the audience loves him.

I don’t have a warped perception- even transwomen in that Netflix documentary acknowledge that TW are more prevalent in the media, though they complain they are misrepresented even when they play themselves...

And you’ve said nothing about all other forms of media? I agree there’s tm representation I never said there wasn’t- what I said and the other poster said is that TW are much more prevalent regardless of who is playing them, stories including them are seen more often. This is something that transmen can acknowledge and quite a few transwomen acknowledge as well. I don’t go out and look for tv shows with tw- these are all shows I was either already watching or watched because I like the creator and or some cast members’ work outside of the show/movie.

  • and considering how many “people of the year” type covers the cast has, I’d assume quite a few people would recognize the cast. But the point isn’t who’s recognized, tho if it were, I see your Chaz Bono and raise you a much more recognized Laverne Cox, And the youtubers i listed. Just because you compared chaz to Jamie doesn’t mean that the TW who are recognized don’t outnumber the TM

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Same in politics, statistics and other things where is big difference between sex/gender.

In news most articles from both sides are mostly about transwomen. Most redactors are transwomen as well.

In funding and researches most is focused on transwomen's issues, not on transmen's.

Out of 24 elected trans politicians in USA - 23 are transwomen.

In NZ women's university department heads are transwomen, while natal women are regular workers, in men's university - men are heads and transmen just workers.

In prisons transwomen are sitting mostly for violent crimes and rapes, while transmen are for non-violent crimes. And there around 70 times more transwomen in prisons, than transmen.

And so on.

In every single aspect transwomen correlating to transmen as men to women. In vast majority of cases transwomen and transmen are acting and are privileged the same way that their born socialization and born gender is - not as their prefered gender.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Clearly you haven’t seen Pose if you think the show is more about the two gay guys that are somewhat main characters than the 5 TW...

I watched the first episode and cried for several hours. I decided it wasn’t something I could emotionally handle watching. My knowledge of it ends there and what I’ve seen on Twitter.

If you haven’t seen either just say that rather than pretend that you know what it’s about to prove a point.

I said I hadn’t seen Paris is Burning. I thought it was about gay men in the ballroom scene because that’s how it’s been described to me.

what I said and the other poster said is that TW are much more prevalent regardless of who is playing them, stories including them are seen more often.

Not actual stories. Bit parts as sex workers or the butt of jokes. Very few trans stories that are actual stories get told and when they do it’s almost always being played by a man, which negates anything positive that could have come from it. I’d prefer no representation at all than trans women played by men.

I would say Laverne isn’t more recognizable than Chaz, and I only know of Nikki because she was on that makeup show on Netflix.

My point is, you can’t act like there’s some grand glut of trans women representation because it’s not much more common than trans men of at all and even then it’s almost always negative. Laverne cox’s character on Orange is the new Black is still a felon. How many trans women characters can you think of that aren’t criminals or sex workers and not played by men?

[–]SnowAssMan 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It doesn't matter what type of media you're looking at, trans-womxyn outnumber trans-men, whether it's Hollywood movies, or Youtube videos. In the case of "Lefttube", trans-womxyn even outnumber women. This is why accusations by trans-womxyn of women's supposed "cis privilege" is a sexist reversal of the power dynamic.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Also, let's not pretend that representation in entertainment media is the real or sole litmus test. Plenty of older trans-identified males are in incredibly powerful positions in society. Such as tech executive Martine Rothblatt - long famous for being "the highest paid woman in America" - billionaire heir and ex military man Jennifer Pritzker, and the much-honored writer and historian Jan Morris, who died in November at age 94. Morris spent nearly half a century as a "transwoman" and suffered no negative repercussions for it. On the contrary, Morris was constantly lionized, praised and given prestigious positions, publishing contracts and awards.

[–]SnowAssMan 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transgender_characters_in_film_and_television

Compare the shorter list of trans-men characters to the substantially longer list of trans-womxyn characters. So there, trans-womxyn outnumber trans-men in media. Case closed.