QT: A question of ideology

submitted by loveSloaneDebate King from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (79 children)

They would have all the rights other males have.

Which is no protections. Since any discrimination would be based on being trans not being male.

Transwomen also have the option of protections and facilities for themselves, seperate from males who are not transwomen.

Trans only facilities don’t exist though. This is a thought expirament at best. Separate facilities would be my preference in an ideal world but don’t exist.

Transwomen also have the option of protections and facilities for themselves, seperate from males who are not transwomen.

Which they have at least gained some of. You are actively arguing to fully negate any protections trans women have gained. That’s exactly my point. If trans women are “just men” then it would negate the basis for every protection we have managed to scrape together.

Transwomen also have the option of protections and facilities for themselves, seperate from males who are not transwomen.

But those protections don’t exist generally and where they are it’s on the basis we are protected as member of our identified gender.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (78 children)

It’s all the protections, plus legal protection against discrimination specifically for being trans. What more could possibly be asked for? It maintains the rights of transgender people and women.

Make them. This issue has been done to death with you. Recognising transwomen as male removes your protections how specifically? What about someone seeing a male as a male makes it suddenly impossible for that person to be protected by aforementioned legal protections?

And transwomen have absolutely zero business in spaces based on their gender. Their sex is male and their self perception should never allow them into spaces for female people.

My ideas provide protection for women’s spaces and women as a category, whilst still calling for legal protection from discrimination for men who is as women, plus advocates for spaces for those men to use safely.

Name the right being stripped away here. Full protections in place. The only thing you wouldn’t get is something you already don’t have, which is control over anyone else’s perception. Nobody can force others to see them as something they are not.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (77 children)

It’s all the protections, plus legal protection against discrimination specifically for being trans. What more could possibly be asked for? It maintains the rights of transgender people and women.

Most of those protections that do exist in America at least are based on trans women being treated as women, like educational access decisions have all been spun from women’s protections under title 9. ( The notable exception is the employment decision last year which relayed the protection for stevens on stereotype violations as a male through the lens of Bostock). If you treat us as men those protections essentially disappear. Express protections would be grand, but we don’t have them. Basically the small amount of protections we have have come through court decisions that you would negate.

Make them. This issue has been done to death with you.

As I’ve explained to you many times. We can’t. We are a small and extremely marginalized minority. There are things we can’t realistically do.

And transwomen have absolutely zero business in spaces based on their gender. Their sex is male and their self perception should never allow them into spaces for female people.

Then third spaces need to be provided. Men’s spaces are fundamentally and inevitably unsafe, therefore don’t fulfill the need. A men’s bathroom doesn’t fulfill a trans woman’s need for a bathroom because it is unsafe. It’s the equivalent of providing a bathroom for us thats on fire and claiming it is sufficient.

My ideas provide protection for women’s spaces and women as a category, whilst still calling for legal protection from discrimination for men who is as women, plus advocates for spaces for those men to use safely.

But those spaces and rights don’t exist. That’s my point. You are arguing to undo near every protection we have won in the courts and all accessible spaces on the theoretical that a small marginalized group can somehow fund building an entirely new societal infrastructure and convince legislatures to give us rights we’ve never been able to get them to give us. You see how that is arguing for us to be put in an impossible position don’t you?

Name the right being stripped away here. Full protections in place. The only thing you wouldn’t get is something you already don’t have, which is control over anyone else’s perception. Nobody can force others to see them as something they are not.

Basically every right through courts but employment protections would be at minimum newly challengeable and given how much those fights cost for victims of discrimination to fight, essentially negated. New rights from the courts would be nonstarters since they mostly come from the idea of legally protecting us as one would a woman. I would overnight lose the ability to go anywhere for more than a few minutes since I would not have access to a bathroom. “Full protections” aren’t in place. Infrastructure to support trans women just existing isn’t in place. You are arguing to set us back 50 years with no realistic path to advancement on the theory that we could ( keep in mind with a position garnering far less public acceptance than we have now if our need for protection) convince Congress to give us rights we’ve been trying unsuccessfully for for decades and convince society to build entirely new spaces everywhere to allow us to even have basically societal participation.

If trans spaces existed and trans people had enshrined rights this conversation might be different but that’s just not the case.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (76 children)

Change them.

You and men can make them. Talk to men instead of crying to women. Men are the problem.

Nowhere have I stated that it’s legal or socially acceptable to attack you or harass you. That’s the exact protection women have any way. What more could you possibly ask for?

The point is that this is what should be in place, as opposed to allowing transwomen into any spaces belonging to women. It’s a better solution than erasing women’s rights and language.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (75 children)

We can’t change them that’s still my point.

Men, Espescially straight men,hate trans women. They are the one killing us. They won’t be helping us with anything and certainly not doing something to our benefit that wouldn’t benefit them.

Nowhere have I stated that it’s legal or socially acceptable to attack you or harass you. That’s the exact protection women have any way. What more could you possibly ask for?

That’s the implication of what you are arguing for. If we are men it negates nearly all protections that have been given to us.

The point is that this is what should be in place,

But it isn’t. What you are basically saying is “they shouldn’t have the protections that have. It would be nice if they had this entirely other system of rights, but I’m not actually doing anything to put in those other rights. Still want them stripped of the rights they have now though”.

Take trans people out of the equation and apply that to any other groups rights or protections.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (74 children)

I am saying you should have protections under a different system. I’m not talking about implementing it. This is about the ideology, not the political and social barriers.

Men kill far more women than transwomen. Not women’s job to fix men for you. Been over it a thousand times.

The only thing you don’t get under my ideology is the title and shared spaces with women. Somehow this idea apparently strips you of rights but even in your arguments, it’s other males actually acting against your rights. If it’s not men’s job to educate men and it’s clearly not women’s job, who’s supposed to do it?

Once again, I’m not American,but am someone who voted for basically the exact protections I’ve described. I regularly purchase stock for my store from someone who donates part of that to transgender charities. Stop accusing me of not doing anything when I don’t vote in your countries elections and you’re 100% ignorant of me and my life.

Once again, this is about ideas, not current American politics or your personal shitty experiences. Ideas.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (73 children)

Men can’t be made safe for us. They will always be the ones harming us and the ones that pose a danger to us. They can’t be “educated”.

I’m talking about the realistic implications of your ideas. Those other spaces don’t exists this other rights don’t exist, so when you argue for us to be entirely reclassified without putting those things in place you are arguing for us to be stripped of rights. You are harming us and then justifying it by saying you wouldn’t object if we somehow magically rebuilt the entirety of society’s infrastructure. If you aren’t going to work to replace the rights and facilities you want to strip us of, you are just arguing for us to be hurt and then denying it by hiding behind a hypothetical.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (72 children)

So you can’t argue at all against the ideology and have to bring the discussion around to your only argument; all women must do X for a small group of men who have no power to protect themselves, despite the fact that women are harmed more often by men.

This refrain was tired when you constantly dragged any discussion to it when there was a subreddit. Bust something else out of the vault.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Incidentally, did you know only 37 trans people* were killed in our (mine and masks) country last year? And that almost all of them are poc and or sex workers? And that many of the murders had nothing to do with the victim being trans? And also that none of those cases had anything to do with some random transphobe just deciding to go out and find a trans person to kill? In each instance I came across, it was either an unintended victim or there was some type of connection that existed before the homicide. Which to me suggest that overwhelmingly, “cis men” are more than content to leave TW alone.

Just thought it was an interesting thing I read.

I’ll pop on out of your thread now :)

*that number is a combination of trans and otherwise gnc individuals, it’s also considered a surge in numbers.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

A particularly good point!

Terrifyingly, I have known about the same number of women throughout my life who have been assaulted, raped, battered, stalked, threatened, held financially hostage, and/or emotionally abused specifically because they were women.

And yet masks claims it is the responsibility of these women to make men behave more kindly to a subgroup of men. Un-fucking-believable.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (69 children)

But you aren’t arguing for doing nothing. You are arguing for us to be deprived of what rights and access we have. You are taking an active role. When you create harm doesn’t it create a moral imperative to ameliorative it.

And you are well aware I would prefer things like single occupancy facilities. (Because of course trans only things don’t work) and I would also be for explicit protections for that didn’t rely on interpretation. But neither of those things exist in numbers to actually fill the needs of trans people. And you are arguing that we should lose what we have on the idea that it is okay to take it since we would have your permission to build infrastructure or gain rights we’ve never been able to. You are arguing from a position that would result in harming us

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (68 children)

Where? I am arguing that whilst needing to be a seperate category from women, transwomen deserve and have the right to safety and community in third spaces. What about that infringes on your rights?

Name the right, even, instead of just crying the same presumably copy+pasted accusation.

Where am I taking an active role in hurting you? What do I do day to day, you magical clairvoyant?

When you create harm doesn’t it create a moral imperative to ameliorative it.

No? Morals aren’t even universal so that’s just silly. Also, if this is the case, what are you doing personally to ameliorate the harm done to women by males taking their spaces?

As you are well aware, it’s pointless to try and convince me that it is a woman’s role to protect a category of men. That sentiment is entirely misogynistic and always will be. Women can’t stop men from hurting us, how do you think we’re gonna magically fix shit for you without giving up our own protection?

It’s particularly bizarre to constantly accuse me of causing the state of affairs for transgender people in America. Like, I can’t even vote there but you expect me to fix shit for you there? I’m far FAR more concerned with the thousands of beaten women in my own country, thanks.