QT: A question of ideology

submitted by loveSloaneDebate King from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]SnowAssMan 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

The best way to protect trans rights is to have them tied to trans status, obviously. If trans-men just get men's rights, then they have no rights that address their specific needs. Why should affirming this ideology come before all else? Oh right, trans-men are female i.e. not your concern.

Sex and gender are different

But the genders are not different, that's the point. Distinguishing between the sexes is justified, distinguishing between genders isn't, since anyone can be anything.

I expressly don’t want to be grouped with men

Women expressly don't want to be grouped with men either, nobody does, why on Earth should over 50% of the population's rights be compromised for 0.2% of the population though, especially when we don't discriminate based on orientation? Purge all the gynaephilic "trans-womxyn" from the movement first – that demographic alone is responsible for all the trans on female violent & sexual crimes. Keeping trans people separate from men is one thing (except trans-men apparently???), but grouping trans-womxyn in with women is completely unjustified. Even grouping gay men with women would make more sense, since none of them are gynaephlles.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

The best way to protect trans rights is to have them tied to trans status, obviously.

Yeah. But that hasn’t been done. Legally We aren’t being protected from being trans but generally by court decisions expanding women’s protections to us. Legal codes by and large don’t have express trans protections.

Oh right, trans-men are female i.e. not your concern.

Trans men are men. So I’m not one of them. I support their efforts to get what they need and think they deserve protections that they need as trans people but they’re men.

But the genders are not different, that's the point. Distinguishing between the sexes is justified, distinguishing between genders isn't, since anyone can be anything.

Basing treatment on sex isn’t justified because as I’ve been pointing out it leads to harm. Being forced into men’s spaces harms and kills trans women. Treating us legally as men means we lack necessary protection. Consider things like insurance. A post operative trans women doesn’t need a testicular examination but she does need a mammogram and treating us as men means she would be left uncovered for the service she actually needs.

Women expressly don't want to be grouped with men either, nobody does, why on Earth should over 50% of the population's rights be compromised for 0.2% of the population though, especially when we don't discriminate based on orientation? Purge all the gynaephilic "trans-womxyn" from the movement first – that demographic alone is responsible for all the trans on female violent & sexual crimes.

My point was that you are defining humanity by sex and that’s bad. Why should a minority be exposed to harm because it’s small? And the idea that sexual attraction should determine whether someone has rights is frankly dystopian. A man will hurt a trans woman because she is trans boy because she is gay/bi/straight.

Keeping trans people separate from men is one thing (except trans-men apparently???), but grouping trans-womxyn in with women is completely unjustified.

I don’t claim to speak for trans men. Ask them what they want. In our society grouping trans women with men causes us to have access to no necessary facilities and effectively destroys most of our protections here in the us. Until there is infrastructure and rights in place to need needs, it is justified because far fewer trans women will harm women with that grouping than men would harm trans women the other way. It’s justified because it creates the lowest overall harm.

Separate spaces or safe neural spaces ( like single occupancy bathrooms) would be my preference but that infrastructure doesn’t exist and trans people don’t have the clout to mandate that. So before you argue to remove our rights and access to safe spaces, create safe alternatives. Then the conversation might change.

[–]SnowAssMan 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

If trans-men can handle men's spaces, so can trans-womxyn. The latter is not more vulnerable to men than the former.

There are men who have actual breasts, they have to deal with the same problem, except they didn't choose it. Re-categorising them as women would be just as stupid a "solution".

My point was that you are grouping men with a cross-gender self identification with women and that’s bad. "trans panic" = "gay panic", same thing.

far fewer trans-womxyn or gay men or effeminate men or trans-men will harm women with that grouping than men would harm trans-womxyn, gay men, effeminate men, trans-men the other way – there, I corrected it for you. Those protections were made for women, not everyone but women.

There is no excuse for parasitic activism.

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

far fewer trans-womxyn or gay men or effeminate men or trans-men will harm women with that grouping than men would harm trans-womxyn, gay men, effeminate men, trans-men the other way – there, I corrected it for you. Those protections were made for women, not everyone but women.

By the crime statistics in the USA and UK, it is few times more likely that stranger transwoman will attack woman than stranger man will attack transwoman. Same with sexual crimes statistics. In the UK only 70 women (out of 3400 women in prison, out of 33 million women) are in prison for sexual offense, in most cases it is prostitution or molesting of youth, almost never it is attack on other women or on grown up men. At the same time there are 60 transwomen in UK prisons (our of 128 transwomen in prison, out of estimated 70 thousand transwomen, our of estimated 500 thousand transgenders (non-binary, transmen, transwomen, agender, and so on) in general) who are in prison for sexual assault, in this case majority are sitting for rape. Only 3 transmen were in prison at the same time, and none for violent crimes. There are 33 million men in UK, and 77 thousand men in prisons, with around 15 thousand being for sexual assault. There were more cases of transwomen in female prisons attacking or raping women in female prisons yearly than women attacking or raping women in female prisons in decade. Nothing strange here, actually, as majority of women in prisons are for non-violent and non-agressive crimes, so it is just mostly casual calm people who not paid fees, while majority of transwomen in prisons are either abusers "fake trans" (men who decided to become trans after getting into the prison, and then again becoming men when get out of jail) or transwomen sitting for violent crimes. Transwomen in general showing same behavioral patterns and crime patterns as men, and transmen as women, at least in such cases.

Safest way will be housing transwomen, gay men and gnc men in one branch of male prison, like it was done in some countries already, and not in female prisons.

Women's safe spaces were created because some men were violent and almost never women. And because of some men - all men were prohibited from entering women's safe spaces. As someone already said: "not all men are rapists, majority are not, but almost all rapists are men". Same should be applied here for transwomen.