Feminism being all inclusive

submitted by loveSloaneDebate King from self.GCdebatesQT

I keep seeing comments about how feminism includes everyone. Which basically means feminism includes males (“cis” or trans).

How does this work? How does something that is literally defined as the advocacy of women’s rights based on equality of the sexes include males? How does that make sense? How is it still feminism? Even if you’re someone who thinks TWAW, how do you extend feminism to males who aren’t trans?

What would be the difference between female rights and human rights? I’m asking because I’ve seen comments about this a lot, and nobody seems to ever explain what that means.

I understand intersectionality- but imo, intersectionality in feminism means females of all ages, races, beliefs, etc. It means advocating for any and all types of (biological/natal/actual) females. End of. How is feminism still feminism (as opposed to advocating for human rights) if it extends to humans who aren’t female?

This is for anyone to answer, but most interested in QT’s responses.

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[–]yishengqingwa666 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

Feminism is for females. Only girls and women. It is for the liberation of girls and women from male patriarchy, not "equality" with men. It is not for men, and men cannot be feminists.

https://radicalhubarchives.wordpress.com/radfem-101/

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

Why shouldn't women have equality with men?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

I can’t tell if you truly don’t understand or if you’re pretending?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

I really don't understand. I thought feminism was about women having equal rights with men, like the right to vote, getting paid the same as men, being respected in STEM fields the same as men, etc.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

It is. I’m thinking you’re missing the point of what we’re saying.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Maybe I am. I am learning disabled. When I fight in the disability rights movement, I fight so disabled children aren't segregated into separate classrooms, so disabled people don't have their kids taken away on the sole basis of being disabled, to end workplace discrimination, accessible housing, not to "liberate" disabled people from abled people.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

That is exactly liberating the disabled from the abled. A campaign to prevent the abled community from controlling or discriminating against the disabled is liberation.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Well I never thought of it that way! Thank you for the perspective.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

No problem. Now if we apply that same perspective to feminism, do you see why we say feminism is for women?

For liberating women from the men and the gender roles used to control and discriminate against specifically people who are female? That’s what is meant when we say feminism is not for men.

It’s not about excluding males, it’s simply not focussed on them, which to those who have always been the focus when it comes to social matters, feels like exclusion.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Though some branches of feminism do focus their advocacy on other groups, like Bell Hooks feminism and everydayfeminism.com.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I understand that. What I’m trying to say is that I do believe that everyone should be supportive of feminism- but feminism should be about and focused on the female sex. It’s not about separation, it’s about understanding that feminism should be focused on the equality and safety of females, not everyone. I guess my issue with the “feminism is for everyone” thing is that they don’t all seem to think it means “everyone should support female rights”. It usually ends up meaning that “feminism” is used for everyone and everything and the focus gets taken off of who it was meant for. It sounds like you lean more towards what I’m saying, but I believe that most people don’t use that phrase (feminism is for everyone) in the way that you seem to be using it (which sounds like what I’m saying). Like- feminism is not for everyone, but everyone should be a feminist or an ally, if that makes sense.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It’s so silly. Feminism is for females. This idea that feminism is for everyone and everything is just an effort to destroy feminism.

[–]FlanJam 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I used to think feminism included men, back when I was QT. Honestly I didn't even think about it, I just heard people say it and I accepted it because it sounded nice. Maybe that's all it boils down to, sounding nice. QT does tend to overplay "inclusivity" to a fault.

[–]worried19 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I think most liberals just view it as a given that feminism can include men. Before I started learning about radical feminism, I had no idea anyone thought it should be restricted to women.

From the QT perspective, feminism is about equality between the sexes and also benefits men and boys.

[–]yishengqingwa666 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

They are wrong.

[–]worried19 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Agreed, but that's the dominant view nowadays. The idea that feminism is for females has become more of a niche viewpoint.

[–]questioningtw 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If feminism is for everyone, then it is for no one. In order for feminism to actually have goals and achieve things, it has to be able to point out what is wrong with society and try to fix it. Feminism is for women;. when men are included in feminism it suddenly becomes about men's needs, and how mean women are for not liking porn.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Bell Hooks, a black feminist scholar has a book titled "Feminism Is for Everybody".

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Okay... so, can you explain why it’s for everybody? And does it matter that she’s black? What does it mean that I (also a black feminist) think feminism is for females? Do we cancel each other out?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

There are different branches of feminism. I guess GC and other branches of feminism thinks feminism is only for females. Other branches include wider groups.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The point is that feminism should be centered around and focused on advocacy for females. Yes, males should be allies, yes males should understand sexism and what a patriarchal society means, but that’s not what any libfems or TRA’s that I know seem to think when they say “feminism is for everyone”. They seem to think that feminism is about and for everyone-as in not focused on females. That’s counterproductive and defeats the purpose.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The point is that feminism should be centered around and focused on advocacy for females. They seem to think that feminism is about and for everyone-as in not focused on females.

It is called "feminism", not "womanism", not "humanism" and not "communism", right? Words exist to communicate, seems people are forgetting about that.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Seriously. It’s literally in the word and people still don’t get it because they’ve forgotten what words mean, or decided to somehow pretend that these words have changed meaning.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Does her being black make her a special expert or something?

What makes her feminism the correct feminism?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

Don't black women face additional sexism due to being black?

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

They face racism for being black. It’s like claiming my opinion holds more weight cause I’m Roma. Doesn’t really follow. Does a black woman in Nigeria experience the same racism and sexism as a black woman in Delaware?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Are you black? If not- stay in your lane.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Nope. I'm Jewish, disabled and a cis female.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

So maybe leave black people out of your comments since you don’t seem to know what you’re talking about.