all 27 comments

[–]reluctant_commenter 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

This seems accurate to me. I did not realize queer theory comes from critical theory, that explains a lot.

The quote you just described is the exact same common pattern of talking to someone with narcissistic personality disorder (or sometimes other personality disorders). I am not trying to imply that all transgender people have NPD, by observing that. However, it is unsurprising that this pattern of argument occurs, because emerging research suggests that a high proportion of transgender people have at least one personality disorder.

For example: Out of 73 transgender patients receiving SRS, 81% had at least one personality disorder, and 57% had narcissistic personality disorder (at the very least), with higher prevalence among transwomen. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4301205/

Of 87 participants receiving "gender affirming treatments", approx. 50% diagnosed with one or more personality disorders. https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/17/5/1521

Among transgender people not necessarily receiving SRS: 6% of the trans people in the study diagnosed with one or more personality disorders, compared to 0.37% of cis people in the study. https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/full/10.1089/trgh.2019.0029

I find it hard to believe that this pattern of findings could not be related to the style of argumentation we usually see with TRAs.

(Also worth mentioning, the more extreme transgender people are more likely to end up as the "vocal minority", of course, as with any activists in a group.)

edit: Might also be worth mentioning, there seems to be some significant differences in mental health diagnoses and outcomes between trans people who receive surgery or any medical intervention at all, and those who do not (social transitioners who don't medically transition).

[–]DistantGlimmer[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Thanks . It certainly seems like TRAs display a high degree of narcissistic behavior but I've never actually seen statistics on it before. It certainly does seem to explain a lot such as their constant need for validation and rage when they don't get it "properly".

[–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Yup, exactly.

What I would be curious to see is how trans people compare to cis people controlling for psychiatric diagnoses. That last study I linked is the closest example of that, but this topic could still use more research.

[–]tuesday 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I googled, and found this from a WHO study:

The mean multiple imputation prevalence estimate of any DSM–IV/IPDE personality disorder across samples (based on sample sizes, not population sizes) is 6.1% (Table 1). These estimates are lowest in Nigeria (2.7%) and Western Europe (2.4%), and between 4.1% (e.g. China) and 7.9% (e.g. Colombia) in other countries. Prevalence estimates for personality disorder clusters average 3.6% for Cluster A, 1.5% for Cluster B and 2.7% for Cluster C. Cluster B is estimated to be the least prevalent cluster in each survey, and Cluster A is estimated to be the most prevalent in all countries other than Western Europe and the USA.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2705873/

So cluster B is found in supposedly 1.5% of the general population, compared to around 80% of transwomen. That is (obviously) an ENORMOUS difference!

What i'm wondering, is how did such a larger percentage of non cluster B individuals in various governmental agencies (98.5% of the general population does NOT have a cluster B disorder), come to be under the thumb of the few who are (most of whom are trans)?

And i'm also wondering, when 80% of transwomen are cluster B then... what percentage of cluster B individuals are NOT transwomen? That to me is the real question. Because there seems to be an automatic "if this then do that" at play here. If a biological male has narcissistic traits, then what percentage of those males will gravitate towards transgenderism?

[–]tuesday 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Apologies if i simplified too much, or for whatever reason (probably my ignorance) i failed to address your question.

[–]reluctant_commenter 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Whoops, somehow I missed your response entirely!!

I don't know about 80% of transwomen having a cluster B personality disorder-- maybe in a clinical sample of transwomen, sure, but not in a general-population sample, the last study I linked suggested that the general-population estimate was around 6%. Which is more what we'd expect; people who check in to a clinic for mental health related concerns are much more likely to have disorders than people in the general population, since they're a self-selecting group.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Might also be worth mentioning, there seems to be some significant differences in mental health diagnoses and outcomes between trans people who receive surgery or any medical intervention at all, and those who do not (social transitioners who don't medically transition)

This is surprising to me. I’m not necessarily surprised that there are differences, but I expected transsexuals to be less likely to have mental health diagnoses than the other group. The studies you posted seem to indicate the opposite. It could just be my transmed bias or being part of the first study group, but reading these made me feel a little defensive (even though I don’t have any personality disorders). The first study involves Iranian transsexuals and I wonder if that changes anything.

[–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah I was confused by that as well. But, just to be clear-- there have actually been studies that have found both of those claims, that is, some have found transsexuals to have more health problems and some have suggested they have less than nonbinary non-transexuals.

It could just be my transmed bias or being part of the first study group

Totally fair. There's a lot to be said about the first wave of studies being a rough estimate. My own attempt at interpreting this possible finding was that people who don't medically transition, might have socially transitioned only out of social pressure or for social currency reasons-- as opposed to already having an eating disorder, body dysmorphia or other severe forms of psychopathology that pushed them into wanting to do a medical transition.

Also, full disclosure, I read the abstracts but skimmed and only read parts of those papers, so I probably missed something.

[–]worried19 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

The author makes a good point. With the hardcore activists, it's like arguing with religious fundamentalists who are convinced we're either evil or deceived. But the weird thing is that no one in the world was born into this religion. It's a new religion that has only appeared within the last 10 years. I find it impossible to believe none of these people have ever had any doubts considering they didn't grow up with it. It hasn't even been around long enough for tons of families to have inculcated these beliefs from birth.

[–]DistantGlimmer[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I think that is a good comparison. They are morally committed to it and afraid to question it because they know they will get ostracised if they do not go along 100% and are manipulated - told this literally makes trans kids kill themselves etc. It is very similar to the way cults operate or extreme leftism like the Chines Cultural Revolution. I worry about what will happen ponce a lot of the kids that are being pressured to transition right now start regretting it.I think things are only going to get worse with this before they get better.

[–]worried19 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

My primary worry is for young GNC children and teenagers.

They are morally committed to it and afraid to question it

True, and maybe that's why some of them are so hostile. The fact that we are able to "peak" people proves that their belief system is vulnerable. People can easily change their minds when confronted with new evidence, which is why some activists try so hard to shut down debate. It's like how certain Christians try to prevent their kids from learning about anything outside the faith.

[–]DistantGlimmer[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I've told before the story of how Initially got peaked by hearing TRAs say "don't even read GenderCritical because you might believe them and become a bigot!" (they were being really hateful to the woman they were arguing with while saying this also) it really tipped me that there was something cultish going on and made me want to see what they were so afraid of me finding out. I've also heard GenCyn types admitting that the problem with the debate sub was that people got convinced of our arguments when they could see both sides.

I'm also really upset about GNC kids and teens being encouraged to transition., together with prisons and the long-term legal effects of redefining the female sex class it is by biggest issue.

[–]worried19 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If they're right, they should have nothing to fear from open debate and discussion. The fact that seek to repress it says quite a bit.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

the good old control of information tactic :) If the information is so wrong and illogicial then what is the harm in people reading it? Surely they will see that it's a load of crap. Just like Christians being against their kids reading non-Christian books.

[–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I find it impossible to believe none of these people have ever had any doubts considering they didn't grow up with it.

Alternatively, it is possible that there is a common factor that produces hardcore trans activists and hardcore religious fundamentalists alike. Some fundamentalists don't have any doubts-- but that's not necessarily because they grew up with it.

[–]jet199 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

I actually think GC have to be careful they don't fall into this mindset of thinking people only disagree because they want to oppress us or are being disingenuous. With the lens of radical feminism it can be easy to fall into the trap of thinking every problem and misunderstanding is due to female oppression rather than a multitude of other factors.

However when I look around social media I don't see rad fems refusing to debate or saying it's not worth their time. Rather they take their arguement to everyone. I've seen rad fems on twitter argue for days with belittling men who have no skin in the game. We're doing OK.

[–]DistantGlimmer[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That's an interesting point. I do think that every group can be prone to insularity and echo chambers online. Especially a group like GC that does deal with no-platforming and blatant hostility from many quarters but I do also think that many GC/radfems do seek some kind of accomodation with trans people. Very rarely do I hear someone in a GC group say "every single trans woman is an evil fetishist misogynist. " That type of thinking only seems to really exist on the other side.

Of course that is not to say that GC people are not forceful in our opinions but I do think we tend to seek out debate and try to convince others we are right. Whether it would be different if GC was the side with the social power is an open question I suppose but I do feel the attitude of trans activists is very illiberal. .

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I suspected (when GC had a larger platform on reddit) that most GCers were people whose views were more in-line with JK Rowling's (trans people exist but don't agree with the TRAs) than people whose views were that gender doesn't exist and transgenderism therefore doesn't exist (a hardline radical feminist stance).

[–]anfd 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I think this article (as well as another one on the site, The Complex Relationship between Marxism and Wokeness) is among the most perceptive ones I've read dealing with these issues. Particularly I was impressed by his ability to distinguish between what he calls critical justice theory (CJT) and Marxism, rather than go for the usual "aren't these pomo-neomarxist types just so stupid and annoying". He's actually trying to honestly understand how his adversaries think, and seems to do a relatively good job of it too, even though he's a bit flippant at times.

I can't vouch for the accuracy of these articles all the way through, but that he was able to make this distinction certainly works in his favour as far as I'm concerned.

For background, I used to think for a long time that I was Marxist. I do no longer think so, even though letting go of labels doesn't necessarily change one's actual politics too much. And even back in the day I was a Marxist more for what it stood for politically, rather than for all that Frankfurt School and other cultural analysis stuff which always felt too airy-fairy to me (I don't have a university education which might explain a thing or two).

I think I have a lot in common with Lindsay. Classical liberalism and classical Marxism are both in the Enlightenment tradition, and that's what I share with Lindsay against the kind of CJT activism he describes in the article mentioned in the OP. While I think good Marxism is better than good (classical) Liberalism, I also think good Liberalism is better than bad Marxism.

For example, I don't think it's impossible for liberals to admit, in principle, to a "weak standpoint epistemology" where your social position has an effect on what you are likely to know (and you won't be aware of what you don't know). In this view the facts are still out there, even if they're hidden from you because of your biased approach that you're not aware of. Marx's theory of ideology is, by and large, within this tradition when he argues that the bourgeoisie (even though not necessarily all bourgeois individuals) cannot "understand" the labour theory of value for example, because that would undermine their own class position. In contrast the proletariat — a new, rising, and this time really universal class — doesn't have these blinkers on and so can come to realise what's real, unlike the bourgeoisie that is able to stomach only the kind of ideas that don't threaten its power.

The point is that the facts exist, but bourgeois ideology acts as a veil to cover them. For Marx, "analysis of consciousness and ideology is grounded in the belief that mystification is susceptible to being unmasked by knowledge", like Michèle Barrett says (The Politics of Truth. From Marx to Foucalt, p. 9).

Now, I don't know to what extent "weak standpoint theory" is, or can be, part and parcel of Liberalism (I don't know the Liberal tradition well enough). But I don't find it impossible that a Liberal could accept it in principle, at least as it applies to individuals, even though they probably wouldn't accept the "class epistemology" approach that's central to classical Marxism (and I'm not sure to what extent I accept it either. Barrett's book that I mentioned makes a convincing case why it shouldn't be accepted).

However, to the extent that Lindsay's description of CJT is accurate, CJT has let go of this "weak" version of standpoint epistemology and embraced a strong one, where your social position and interests don't obscure the facts (which exist objectively, regardless of your consciousness) but instead constitute them. I think it's credible to claim — like Lindsay does — that this view is Marxian but not Marxist. (Once more I salute him for being able to make this distinction.) It is, because Marxist theory of ideology is a standpoint theory, and CJT is a standpoint theory. (Liberalism in its basic form I believe is not a standpoint theory.) But it isn't, because Marx's views are still inside the Enlightenment tradition (and one could argue, though not without controversy, inside the Humanist tradition as well) where the world is still universally knowable in principle, while CJT is not.

Another thing I would say Liberals don't necessarily have a problem with is a "weak version of social constructionism", meaning that while, for example, someone being a mother is a biological fact, what someone's being a mother means socially cannot be understood in the same way, and the social meaning is socially constructed (i.e. not a simple, given "fact"). But CJT has embraced a strong version of social constructionism, where pharaoh Ramesses II couldn't have died of tuberculosis, because the germ that causes tuberculosis was discovered only in 1882.

[–]DistantGlimmer[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Yeah, he and his colleague do go beyond the Jordan Peterson "post-modern neomarxist" drivel and actually get closer to pinpointing the problem with woke (for the lack of a better term) ideology. I do get annoyed how he still has the typical center-right tendancy of "all systemic theories are wrong. We obviously live in a meritocracy!" though (to be fair I haven't read his books and I may be kind of strawmanning him here based on what I have read and watched) . Still he has put a lot of effort into "knowing his enemies" and to the extent that I share some of his enemies I find his insights useful.

Seems like we'd agree about Marxism. I like the theory for what it says about economics in the nineteenth century and to a much lesser degree a tool to understand modern oppressive relations. I wouldn't call myself a Marxist though because I don't believe Marxist theory is directly very applicable to modern political movements but yes, I do not see modern left "wokism" being very comparible to actual Marxism. The emphasis on individual identity it puts forward is actually very compatible with capitalism (one can compare to various "self-help movements and really much of the modern mental health industry).

I do get what he is saying that it is Marxian (descended from Marx through the Frankfurt school) but I also do think it is very separate from what Marx would have wanted because of the idealism vs. materialism conflict. I also think ironically, as I believe either Lindsay or Pluckrose have brought up, that woke ideology is also quite at odds with postmodernism as believing that whatever you think of as progress is automatically "on the right side of history" is the ultimate grand metanarrative. It is exactly what the post-modernists were actually fighting against (and I believe at least to a large extent right about).

I really think this ideology is kind of a Frankenstein's monster that takes some of the worst elements of many different prior ideologies and kind of mashes them together in one big mess.

Very interesting and enjoyable to read comment by the way, thanks.

[–]anfd 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

FWIW, Lindsay sees himself as a liberal leftist. In this 9 minute clip on YouTube he says "we [meaning him, Helen Pluckrose and Peter Boghossian) are left wing people who want the left to come back from the edge", and in a conversation with Mike Nayna he and Boghossian agonize over the fact that they got such a great reception for their "grievance studies" stunt from the right which is hurting their ability to talk to the left. The reason he thinks it's crucial to be able to reach the left is because "we [as leftists] need to take responsibility for our own lunatics" and because "the right can't fix the university. They can firebomb it, but they can't fix it".

[–]DistantGlimmer[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yes. I know he says that. As I said some of the attitudes he displays in some of the talks I've seen make me a bit skeptical of his commitment to "leftism" although he does seem to be liberal in the political/enlightenment sense of the word but it's hard to know, maybe he just overdid it in pushing back against extreme "social justice" views and explains it better elsewhere. He certainly does not strike me as far-right or anything perhaps just not as left as he claims at worst.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There's an economic and socially progressive left and I'd put him on the socially progressive left. He hasn't said much about his economic views so I can't judge. The other thing to remember, is that politics in America has a centre that would be considered right wing anywhere else in the world.

I think if you go further into the theory you can see how it's evolved from these concepts and sort of taken from them ideas that have worked in activism... and not ideas that were actually philosophically sound. As a result you get a kind of bastardisation of the concepts as they are simplified and over-extended to meet political aims. E.g. deconstructing things in post-modernism. If you take the theory of deconstruction to it's logical conclusion then you end up deconstructing everything and there is no truth left— because everything we know can be linked back to culture or some other kind of meta narrative, so you get somewhere kind of like nhilism. Unfortunately, this isn't a great position if you are an activist becuase it doesn't allow you to push a certain ideology (we know nothing, and no one is right isn't going to win you political support lol). So activists take the post-modern idea that you can deconstruct systems of power (which is great for tearing down whoever is in power) and introduce the idea that you can't deconstruct oppression. Hence you get the meta-narrative that the only truth we have are the experiences of the oppressed, so therefore the oppressed group holds the truth, and should be able to dictate political policy. This is good for business if you happen to be an activist.

[–]grixitperson 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I've met a lot of religious people who think the only reason you disagree with them is that you are willfully avoiding the fact that deep down inside you know that their position is true.

[–]kwallio 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Wow they must be really fun at parties.

[–]grixitperson 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

the most extreme person i ever met was a full blown calvinist. He followed the doctrine that God has already chosen who's going to heaven or hell before the beginning of time so if you disagree it just means you're one of the designated damned.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think the argument is often that you aren't disagreeing with them but it is the devil / your evil nature as an unrepentant sinner that is making you disagree? I'm not religious so that was my attempt lol.