Interesting meta article questioning whether this kind of debate is even possible. Do you agree?

submitted by DistantGlimmer from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]reluctant_commenter 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

This seems accurate to me. I did not realize queer theory comes from critical theory, that explains a lot.

The quote you just described is the exact same common pattern of talking to someone with narcissistic personality disorder (or sometimes other personality disorders). I am not trying to imply that all transgender people have NPD, by observing that. However, it is unsurprising that this pattern of argument occurs, because emerging research suggests that a high proportion of transgender people have at least one personality disorder.

For example: Out of 73 transgender patients receiving SRS, 81% had at least one personality disorder, and 57% had narcissistic personality disorder (at the very least), with higher prevalence among transwomen. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4301205/

Of 87 participants receiving "gender affirming treatments", approx. 50% diagnosed with one or more personality disorders. https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/17/5/1521

Among transgender people not necessarily receiving SRS: 6% of the trans people in the study diagnosed with one or more personality disorders, compared to 0.37% of cis people in the study. https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/full/10.1089/trgh.2019.0029

I find it hard to believe that this pattern of findings could not be related to the style of argumentation we usually see with TRAs.

(Also worth mentioning, the more extreme transgender people are more likely to end up as the "vocal minority", of course, as with any activists in a group.)

edit: Might also be worth mentioning, there seems to be some significant differences in mental health diagnoses and outcomes between trans people who receive surgery or any medical intervention at all, and those who do not (social transitioners who don't medically transition).

[–]DistantGlimmer[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Thanks . It certainly seems like TRAs display a high degree of narcissistic behavior but I've never actually seen statistics on it before. It certainly does seem to explain a lot such as their constant need for validation and rage when they don't get it "properly".

[–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Yup, exactly.

What I would be curious to see is how trans people compare to cis people controlling for psychiatric diagnoses. That last study I linked is the closest example of that, but this topic could still use more research.

[–]tuesday 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I googled, and found this from a WHO study:

The mean multiple imputation prevalence estimate of any DSM–IV/IPDE personality disorder across samples (based on sample sizes, not population sizes) is 6.1% (Table 1). These estimates are lowest in Nigeria (2.7%) and Western Europe (2.4%), and between 4.1% (e.g. China) and 7.9% (e.g. Colombia) in other countries. Prevalence estimates for personality disorder clusters average 3.6% for Cluster A, 1.5% for Cluster B and 2.7% for Cluster C. Cluster B is estimated to be the least prevalent cluster in each survey, and Cluster A is estimated to be the most prevalent in all countries other than Western Europe and the USA.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2705873/

So cluster B is found in supposedly 1.5% of the general population, compared to around 80% of transwomen. That is (obviously) an ENORMOUS difference!

What i'm wondering, is how did such a larger percentage of non cluster B individuals in various governmental agencies (98.5% of the general population does NOT have a cluster B disorder), come to be under the thumb of the few who are (most of whom are trans)?

And i'm also wondering, when 80% of transwomen are cluster B then... what percentage of cluster B individuals are NOT transwomen? That to me is the real question. Because there seems to be an automatic "if this then do that" at play here. If a biological male has narcissistic traits, then what percentage of those males will gravitate towards transgenderism?

[–]tuesday 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Apologies if i simplified too much, or for whatever reason (probably my ignorance) i failed to address your question.

[–]reluctant_commenter 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Whoops, somehow I missed your response entirely!!

I don't know about 80% of transwomen having a cluster B personality disorder-- maybe in a clinical sample of transwomen, sure, but not in a general-population sample, the last study I linked suggested that the general-population estimate was around 6%. Which is more what we'd expect; people who check in to a clinic for mental health related concerns are much more likely to have disorders than people in the general population, since they're a self-selecting group.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Might also be worth mentioning, there seems to be some significant differences in mental health diagnoses and outcomes between trans people who receive surgery or any medical intervention at all, and those who do not (social transitioners who don't medically transition)

This is surprising to me. I’m not necessarily surprised that there are differences, but I expected transsexuals to be less likely to have mental health diagnoses than the other group. The studies you posted seem to indicate the opposite. It could just be my transmed bias or being part of the first study group, but reading these made me feel a little defensive (even though I don’t have any personality disorders). The first study involves Iranian transsexuals and I wonder if that changes anything.

[–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah I was confused by that as well. But, just to be clear-- there have actually been studies that have found both of those claims, that is, some have found transsexuals to have more health problems and some have suggested they have less than nonbinary non-transexuals.

It could just be my transmed bias or being part of the first study group

Totally fair. There's a lot to be said about the first wave of studies being a rough estimate. My own attempt at interpreting this possible finding was that people who don't medically transition, might have socially transitioned only out of social pressure or for social currency reasons-- as opposed to already having an eating disorder, body dysmorphia or other severe forms of psychopathology that pushed them into wanting to do a medical transition.

Also, full disclosure, I read the abstracts but skimmed and only read parts of those papers, so I probably missed something.