Both: What toxic gender beliefs have you successfully unlearned?

submitted by worried19 from self.GCdebatesQT

I'm still working on mine, so I'm curious how other people have succeeded in ridding themselves of harmful beliefs.

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[–]DogeWalker 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Great question. As a butch lesbian, I had to work through and move past the "not like the other girls" mindset that is heavily promoted by gender ideology.

I think it's hard to avoid feeling "NLOG" as a butch, or as any gender non-conforming woman for that matter. It's a coping mechanism for feeling so different and freakish... but it's also a badge of honor, in a way. Of course, it's a toxic mindset because it creates artificial divisions among women. It also, ironically, reinforces the idea that there is a correct way to be a woman, or that a woman who doesn't conform to gender roles is somehow unique or different from other women... and it is subtly derogatory toward other women who are not "special" as in GNC.

I myself spent many years as unthinkingly pro-trans... but eventually I started to feel out of place in LGBT circles, because so many other butch/GNC women ended up transitioning or taking on elaborate nonbinary identities, and I definitely felt pressure to do the same. I just wanted to be me.

So it was a real relief when I discovered gender criticism and re-discovered radical feminism. It was like I had permission to just be me again, knowing that I am 100% female because I simply am. I was able to let go of the resentfulness towards other, "normal" women, and move past the NLOG mindset. We are all women because we simply are. It's possible to be 100% female and 100% handsome at the same time... without the complicated identities or labels from gender ideology.

[–]worried19[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Same here. I was very male-identified as a child and to some extent continue to be that way as an adult. When I was young, I didn't look down on girls, at least not consciously. But I definitely had it in my mind that I was not really one of them. I never outright denied my sex, but I was happy to let people think I was a boy. I never minded being called "he." I'd tell my friends I was not a "real girl" or not a "regular girl" and thought of myself as "almost a boy." Whatever boys had, I wanted. In fact, I demanded.

It was really only after finding GC thought that I fully accepted that I am a woman with no qualifications. And even now, the word "woman" sometimes puts me a little on edge. I still want to distance myself from other women, even though I know it's not healthy. I'm sure it will be a lifelong struggle.

[–]DogeWalker 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Yes, this is a good description for a lot of my experiences, as well.

When I was young, I didn't look down on girls, at least not consciously. But I definitely had it in my mind that I was not really one of them.

Definitely this. Despite feeling strongly distanced from womanhood and other women, I used to feel that it was mutual in some way, like an unspoken pact... Like, let me consign myself to the "androgynous oddball" space over here, and not try to align myself with womanhood at all, in order to avoid bothering the "normal" women who better fit the mold of "real" womanhood.

It was really only after finding GC thought that I fully accepted that I am a woman with no qualifications. And even now, the word "woman" sometimes puts me a little on edge. I still want to distance myself from other women, even though I know it's not healthy. I'm sure it will be a lifelong struggle.

Same. I re-discovered radical feminism and really re-identified myself with womanhood a couple years ago. But I am still quite masculine in appearance, so for that and other reasons, I struggle with that feeling of being distanced. It probably will be a lifelong thing, but it's a boost to know I'm not the only one.

[–]questioningtw 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I wish clothes weren't so freaking gendered...they are even more gendered then hobbies.

[–]worried19[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The annoying thing is that there's no reason for it. The entire female clothing industry seems to exist to sexualize women and ensure they're non-threatening and suitably decorative.

[–]worried19[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Yeah, we have a lot in common. Are you from the old sub? If you're new, nice to meet you.

It probably will be a lifelong thing, but it's a boost to know I'm not the only one.

It really saddens me to know that young girls like we were are being encouraged to disconnect themselves from womanhood. So many kids think they're the only GNC person in the world, and now when they are finally old enough to find their tribe, they find that the tribe has disappeared.

[–]DogeWalker 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yes, I was on the debate sub on reddit for not quite a year. Picked a new username here, just because paranoia seems to be trendy here on saidit ;)

It really saddens me to know that young girls like we were are being encouraged to disconnect themselves from womanhood. So many kids think they're the only GNC person in the world, and now when they are finally old enough to find their tribe, they find that the tribe has disappeared.

I know what you mean. Based on my own experiences, I completely understand those stats about ROGD and how it's disproportionately affecting girls and young women... there's so much pressure to conform on one hand, and now on the other, there's extreme trans activism telling you to just abandon womanhood.

[–]worried19[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Nice to re-meet you, then!

What confuses me is why the mainstream can't see what's happening to teenage girls. I feel like people are starting to wake up, but it's slow going. It's a known fact that young girls are susceptible to social pressures and social contagion. The doctors promoting medical treatment of female minors are aware of how common it's becoming, so they either don't care or have their own agendas to promote.

But it baffles me that the mainstream has been convinced to take a child's word at face value. I just found out that a 15 year old child performer on a popular TV show is trans and appears to be on hormones. The show's character "came out" and then so did the actor, or perhaps it was the other way around. What had been a GNC girl character was suddenly transformed into a trans boy. And no one in this child's life or anyone involved in the show even had the slightest doubt about affirming this?

[–]branks4nothing 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I relate a lot to this. I'm butch-ish and definitely did the NLOG-thing as a teen, but I think it was a coping measure because I felt so deficient as a woman. Looking back, I think it was angst about being gay and not putting the pieces together yet. I don't know why everything clarified when I came out to myself, but damned if it didn't!

[–]questioningtw 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I honestly think one reason NLOG is seen as such a badge of honor in a way is this: What is femininity? Basically submission and being decorative. Now this is obviously bullshit in reality, but in patriarchy, femininity is all about pleasing men basically. Why would any woman actually be happy being considered weak and helpless and only have value as a wife and mother? Keep in ind this is her only value, and she can't be a wife and mother and say a doctor. Why would any women put up with this treatment?

I think butch women are awesome and this whole, WhY DoN't YoU TrAnSiTiOn? really annoys me. They always say respect peoples identities, but I have seen trans people online actually try to convince people they are trans and I am sure that happens in real life too. Let butch women be butch women.

[–]worried19[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I have definitely unlearned that belief that feminine women are somehow more fully women than masculine women. This was the main thing that gender critical feminism taught me. I'm no less female than any other woman. It's not a hierarchy with feminine women at the top and masculine women at the bottom.

[–]Wrencer 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

That I need a man to have a fulfilling life

[–]questioningtw 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Another good one! Or having kids! I hate that men get to be allowed to be Bachelors and even not like kids very much; but there is something seriously wrong with a woman that is fine being single.

[–]Wrencer 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Totally ! It's like we HAVE to make our lives revolve around getting married and having kids when we get to a certain age.

[–]CatbugMods allow rape victim blaming in this sub :) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Not like other girls-ing. Really it was just an entreatment of please don’t treat me how you treat other girls.

Allowing men to speak over me or to explain at me what I already know.

The value of meeting beauty standards and judging other women by how well they meet them.

Certain parts of performing femininity. I still care deeply about clothes and love my pretty dresses but I’ve learned not to be so afraid of taking up space and being human instead of being ~ladylike~. Eating, laughing loudly, having opinions instead of trying to constantly squash myself down to make room for the act.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That GC has limited scope of use.

As others have mentioned, I re-discovered GC after realizing that I'd been duped by TRA as it became (seemingly overnight) jaw-droppingly toxic, misogynistic, and dangerous. My previous experience with trans had been with transsexuals, which I understood. AGF and GD were completely new to me, and gay male friends had begun chanting TWAW and I was wondering how long I'd slept, and what new planet I was waking up on.

Circling back to GC, I (re)discovered that its framework still explained these new dynamics.

[–]burninglikeabridge 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That men don't cry or can't like "girly" things. That men can't be "soft" and kind.

I started spending time with men who were more like me and that really helped. I hung out with my friends brother who is in his 30s and that really helped. Guys in their 20s are usually still working through that stuff themselves too. At least the ones around me. I think my job also helps though.

[–]questioningtw 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That loving to do manual and skilled labor, not having any interest in domesticity and bring fascinated by science and math does not make me less of a woman. I also did the not like other girls thing, and sadly did kind of look down on other girls. Then again, the environment that the church forced girls into was just so fake and unfun, that i wonder if any girl really felt like a real girl. I am actually really thankful that my parents were basically jack Mormons(Mormons that are still religious but not as rigid) I actually really loved reading about second wave feminists because they were so passionate about gender roles being utter bullshit and I loved that they were anti porn. I kind of hate 3rd wave feminism and started feeling like i wasn't a real woman again. Apparently, not wanting to be objectified by men and thinking woman should have hobbies and not be obsessed with weddings is anti feministeye roll

Even though i disagreed with GC on trans women are all fetishests or feminine gay men, i really loved how you could be openly anti porn and prostitution and how they talked about how butch women were women and feminine men could be men. Ihated how gender cynical often mocked them talking about breaking the change of gender. Actually, I really resented how gendercynical weas so obssesed with the GC subs and it actually made me even MORE gender critical.