Everything else. 21/7/2021

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-22T08:46:02+00:00

2 week gym break due to an injury has me on edge. Exercise is my big outlet so missing that is unfortunate. At least it’s just temporary.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-20T09:29:21+00:00

Not GC. What was done to David Reimer was absolutely detestable. There’s maybe something to be said anecdotally about gender identity but I don’t know how you parse it through the medical abuse.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-01T12:04:51+00:00

I think Biden wants to help trans people genuinely but doesn’t actually understand the issues we face personally.

My preference is single occupancy neutral spaces since dedicated trans facilities would necessarily out those using them and stealth is a trans woman’s best protection from persecution.

Trans women can’t compete With men and given that athletes are specifically the hyper masculine and insecure men most likely to hurt us, shouldn’t even if they could. I’m not convinced we have no edge over natal women so I don’t advocate for that either. No trans women in sports is the best solution I’ve found even though I quite value sport personally. I power lift for example but don’t compete, even though my numbers wouldn’t be particularly impressive among natal women.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-25T17:14:55+00:00

A lot of them seem to conflate it with simple cross dressing when the outward presentation is only a very small piece of the mental picture.

Also I have seen many people compare it to eating disorders and as someone diagnosed both with an eating disorder and gender dysphoria I can absolutely say they aren’t the same thing.

They also wildly underestimate the loss of physical strength as well as the way society treats us differently than men.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-01T12:22:45+00:00

Thanks.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-01T11:20:05+00:00

Isn't you can fire woman for being pregnant in conservative states?

No. That’s illegal. It happens under pretense but it isn’t legal.

Also, in California state since 2016 "sex" is including "gender identity", so it should be protected there.

I’m speaking federally. The majority of states do not have gender identity protections.

10% muscle loss is not enough to be "on par with cis women". Males and females have completely different anatomy, and males have up to 30-50% more muscles with same height and weight. So 10% loss would not be really enough. Even 50% would not be enough, because all other differences would still stay.

I never claimed we were equal in sport to natal women. In fact I said specifically it was arguable. I personally am against trans women competing against cis women. My point is we can’t compare against men.

Opposite is not happening, as transmen even after years on testosterone are not able to even qualify (as often qualification into male competition is above all time female records).

This isn’t accurate. There have been exactly 1 trans man and 1 trans woman to qualify for Olympic trials. Again I’m not for trans women competing against natal women but factually this is the case.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-01T10:13:35+00:00

In America it is legal to discriminate against trans people in housing. It is also legal to refuse to give a trans person even non-trans related medical care.

Most places do not have third facilities meaning that it is essentially impossible to safely spend an extended period most places without using gender appropriate facilities for trans women as we are absolutely unsafe in men’s facilities. The only time I’ve been physically attacked since transition personally was in a men’s room.

Due to this facility issue in fact we are prevented to doing things like sports. Both because there are no safe facilities and because trans woman can’t Physically compete with men. But that is less a rights issue and more a practical concern even though it has health implications.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-08-01T01:09:56+00:00

The realities of the scale of economic inequality, the reality of climate change and the potential very near no return point, and the reality of the fact that fossile fuels are not sustainable as a power base.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-26T12:00:28+00:00

I was a transmedicalist heavily sympathetic to gc but my time interacting with the Reddit group and here have shown me that it appears most of the gc crowd just legitimately dislike trans people and there’s probably no middle ground or progress to be made through talking to y’all. So I went from hopeful to hopeless I guess?

Edit: The main reasons are how many are arguing against a hard or soft ban on medical transition, arguing against protective necessities like I’d changes and formal protections, calling us worse than “other men”, the constant insults about our appearances, maintaining that we somehow have a social or economic advantage when we so clearly do not, and the refusal to acknowledge or failure to appreciate the danger posed to us by men. Basically I’ve just seen so much hateful or indifferent to hate to us that I honestly don’t think there is progress to be made with most of you.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-25T22:12:35+00:00

(Assuming non stealth/ non passing since otherwise we are simply treated with the same marginalization as natal women by an unknowing society) We are generally just treated more poorly overall. People are much more willing to be aggressive toward us.

Discrimination is Rampant. I myself lost my career when I transitioned. Much if Gc seems to think that we are somehow societally privilege when in fact we are generally subject to pretty substantial marginalization. For every white collar trans person there’s 50 who are unemployed or just scraping by. We aren’t some advantaged social class but much of gc seems to think we are.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-20T22:31:17+00:00

I think gender is still very relevant but not just in the trans sense. David was forced not just to live as a girl but as an extremely feminine stereotype barred from any masculine activity. It was very messed up.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-19T18:00:00+00:00

As for your claim that Greg House's soap-opera watching "was a joke" like John Spartan knitting, maybe so. But the joke was on genderists like you who believe every human being lives our lives, and insist we must live our lives, by hewing to the strict, rigid and regressive sexist stereotypes you are so fixated on.

I’ve literally never said that. In fact I’ve openly championed gender nonconformity and said being trans is primarilly about the body. You have absolutely no conception of my beliefs and are constantly making wildly erroneous assumptions about them.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-19T08:16:38+00:00

First, it’s largely about the body. That’s why a transvestite is a distinct thing from a trans person. It’s not just about expression of societal norms of gender.

Also Socialization isn’t something we as trans people are totally immune to. I think at least some of us having gravitation to feminine coded expression is because we want to be thought of as women so consciously or subconsciously we gravitate toward things that society would more likely take as more likely to let us be seen as women. That is to say the identity is innate ( or at least predisposed and not changeable once set, I’m not convinced there isn’t something like a predisposition triggered through formative events but that’s another discussion) and expression may flow from socialization combined with the identity.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-10T02:01:43+00:00

You get a baseline on their politics, and how violent they might be through general conversation maybe mention some famous trans people and see how they react. Like if you are discussing music mention Laura Jane Grace as a musician you like. Things like that.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-02T09:37:45+00:00

They are not free and are not mandatory though most public schools require certain vaccines before attending.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-01T12:29:32+00:00

It would take a radical chance. The gc’s are advocating for a logical extension that would essentially make our lives unlivable.

Transition being excluded from insurance and public funds would mean the vast majority of trans people would never be able to transition medically. Most of us would rather die.

We can’t use men’s facilities. They aren’t safe. Saying we should use men’s facilities is saying we should accept violence or abandon public life entirely. Third spaces are great but also don’t exist most places.

Inability to change documents leads to discrimination at minimum, not to mention the mental pain of being forced to literally carry a card that has your shameful medical history on it.

We need legal protections, we need access to transition, and we need the facilities to let us live in society. Until GC can agree with that, there’s never going to be cooperative feelings because without that they are advocating for us to not be able to live.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-01T10:45:32+00:00

You can discriminate same way against (natal) women.

Sex is protected in both housing and medical administration federally. As is age, disability, race, legitimacy, and many other categories. Gender identity is not. Only in employment do we have federal protection due to the Harris funeral home case.

That is a lie.

It absolutely is not. There was a study done that indicated an approximate loss of 10 percent performance in endurance events, putting hormone controlled trans women on par with cis women. As well as documented muscle loss through transition and a known correlation of presence of testosterone and maintenance of muscle mass. It’s absolutely baseless to claim we can compete with men. You could quibble about whether we can compete with natal women but it’s absolutely baseless to claim we are even comparable to men athletically.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-08-24T16:29:05+00:00

I don’t even think we should be able to compete in sports. But if one did you lose the appeal to dignity and fairness for the marginalized arguments.

Also that dude needs a doctor because if his t is that low naturally either he’s lost his testes or he has some real medical problems. If it’s not natural no guy would do that so it seems a pretty pointless question.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-30T05:19:55+00:00

I assume they aren’t against them but they need them less and see the need for them less so surely they are at least less stridently for them.

And GC isn't against protected spaces.

But also not doing anything for them. Since they don’t exist and trans people can’t make them it’s at best a hypothetical solution or at worst a smokescreen depending on the one speaking. Without concentrated action from non trans people such spaces won’t happen. I do believe dedicated single occupancy neutral spaces is the best solution but only action by non trans people can make that happen.

The “worse than other males” has been directed at all trans women not me specifically but I’ve seen a couple of people say such here.

Removal from society is the outgrowth or what you are espousing. Take bathrooms, without access to safe facilities we lose the ability to participate in many facets of public lfe. The net effect of banning us from women’s facilities and not building new ones is essentially a ban from us participating in large sections of public life.

Or the fact that many of you object to dedicated trans protections ( instead saying it should just be for gnc people broadly) which would leave a gap to be exploited by those seeking to discriminate against us.

Categorization of transition as cosmetic as I have seen pushed for not only renders passing an impossibility but essentially deprives all but extremely wealthy trans people necessary medical care for their mental well being.

Whether or not you purposefully and specifically wish harm to us doesn’t preclude harm from the outgrowth of the policies gc sometimes pushes.

Not to mention we can be denied housing for being trans, voter id laws combined with trans people being unable to update id as many of you push for makes that uniquely dangerous and embarrassing, marrying is made far less likely without timely and affordable transition, It’s been directly argued on the old Reddit board that we should be banned from adopting as mentally unfit and combined with transition induced infertility would make raising children. Impossible for many of us. Your (gc not necessarily specially you) policies left to course at least complicates our ability to do those things.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-28T10:55:17+00:00

Peaking passes. I don’t know about Fleurista but I would assume the same. The difference in the life of a stealth trans woman and one who can’t pass is a big gap. The need for protections is a lot clearer to people in my position I suppose.

Even leaving aside the constant insults I get, with assertions I have x y z mental disorder and am a raging misigynist worse than “other men”, There’s no common ground that can be found when so many of you are arguing for transition to be inaccessible and pushing policies that would basically remove people like me from society. Surely that’s understandable.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-20T11:55:12+00:00

No one is buying this ridiculous tactic of making obvious implications and then going “well I didn’t actually say it”. It’s very junior high bully of you.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-19T12:58:35+00:00

It is objectifying though. Like..I’m a woman telling you that a male observing and then mimicking a woman is objectifying.

And I’m saying “mimicking” is mischaracterization. It’s no more mimicking than a child learning to talk from hearing their parents. It’s just learning.

Here’s the thing, you claim it’s a desire to be pretty because you are told women are pretty. Girls are afraid not to be pretty because we are told our worth is our beauty. Femininity has nothing to do with women’s desires. It is forced on women and created by male desire, and then other males adopt it because they desired what women were indoctrinated with. Then we are told that this desire makes them women.

We’re both shaped by socialization, sure and one I’ve already said isn’t the same one. And it’s as much about disassociating with male expected traits. I.e we are told men aren’t pretty women are so someone who wants to be seen as or feel more like a woman will naturally develop an urge to be seen as pretty. Because it is a trait associated with the desired outcome and therefore becomes desireable. Society shapes us all, we all react differently

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-19T12:52:42+00:00

Those things being coded to the parent don’t make sense in relation to a kid thinking they should be the opposite sex.

I’m working from personal experience so it may be atypical but once I was about 3 we lived in pretty remote rural setting. 99 percent of the time my mom was the only woman I saw outside of school and my dad was the only man I saw period until like middle school at least. Doesn’t it make sense that would be generalized?

Trauma is formative sure, but why seek to undo a perfectly valid personality simply because it was shaped in part by trauma?

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-13T12:24:59+00:00

I wouldn’t want to date a “gc” person either so seems pretty fair.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-10T02:03:00+00:00

It’s hard to tell who people who are in that low of a place do things. But also chasers don’t want post op trans women. They just want dick.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-09T11:59:02+00:00

why would anyone want to have sex with someone they might consider capable of killing them for what they are? Why would anyone want to have sex with someone who could be completely disgusted by them?

Keep in mind I am pro disclosure but it’s pretty easy to see that it’s because they are lonely. Some people will be with anyone who will have them even if they are awful or cruel. When you know no one will have you, you can look past a little thing like someone thinking you are disgusting just to be with someone.

But again. Trans people should disclose.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-09T11:39:38+00:00

I think before any sexual contact, we should disclose to possible partners.

However I don’t think it should be required before you at least have enough of a conversation to get the sense whether they would hurt you or potentially do something like expose you.

It’s not rape or sexual assault, but I do think it’s wrong to have sex with someone without disclosing.

It would of course be safer not to disclose but I still don’t think it’s fair. I would put it on par with not telling them you are married. Like it could effect whether they wanted to be with you so you should tell them but it isn’t rape not to.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-05T04:19:35+00:00

When you are trans you aren’t just a person. You being trans defines every interaction. And for the negative.

Immagine that literally every person you every interact with only looks at you with pity or disdain. Everyone. Immagine what that’s like. Because that’s what life is for an out trans person. Even if we got basic equality protections, you still can’t be normal and everyone will remind you of it every day even without getting into safety.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-01T19:22:14+00:00

If it’s a question of discrimination protections in health care etc, I’m not against overprotecting.

Like this isn’t about spaces or whatever. I’m talking baseline nondiscrimination.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-01T18:14:25+00:00

Participating here is essentially an act of emotional self harm. It’s distressing an I know it will be, but I keep doing it. When my mental health improved i deleted my account. But as I’ve had a backslide I came back. I’m not trying to be dramatic, just being honest.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-11-10T17:20:40+00:00

I think I would agree with that statement. Some trans people pass but I would wager most don’t.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-10-28T17:07:15+00:00

What?

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-10-03T11:56:29+00:00

If she weren’t a mod I would have simply reported it and moved on but a “private conversation with the mod team” a) isn’t facilitated because there isn’t a group chat function here and I sure as hell am not giving anyone here my personal info and b) largely made impractical by the fact she is on the mod team. Watever insults you want to throw at me doesn’t change that mods should follow and enforce the rules. Otherwise moderation and rules are meaningless.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-09-29T12:03:16+00:00

Sure. A nondisphoric male who doesn’t transition or identify as a woman but wishes he was a woman is possible.
Largely a combination of identity and social interaction.
Because their gender dysphoria is because their gender doesn’t match their sex. There’s nothing contradictory.
They aren’t.
Are they trans or a cross dresser? Because if they aren’t trans there is your answer. Otherwise they are living as a non passing trans woman. A type of woman.
No.
“adult members of the female sex” or you know ci* women and afab trans people.
The question presupposes coopting which I fight thing is what is happening.
No. You aren’t seeking to change attraction or torturing people so it isn’t close to conversion therapy. And it’s awful to imply a connection.

1 (b) desistance doesn’t cure dysphoria, it’s the result of dysphoria stopping or social pressure being weighted over dysphoria. Something being natural doesn’t make it superior. And because encouraging desistance kills trans people and encourages extreme suffering.

2(b) No. Though it certainly can be tied to transphobic beliefs. For instance if you are attracted to a trans man but consider him a woman the attraction is not transphobic but the belief he is a woman still is.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-09-09T16:23:37+00:00

If you have neutral spaces and women’s spaces, you just have men’s spaces and women’s spaces. Given the choice no sane non men would want to be isolated with men when there was an alternative. “Neutral” is illusory when there is a women’s alternative.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-08-05T19:01:22+00:00

Fictional universes need not be as bad as real ones.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-08-05T14:22:05+00:00

You are just factually wrong on both these facts. I won’t be responding anymore because you are either trolling or so like ignorant that meaningful discussion is impossible.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-08-04T18:23:01+00:00

Do you think it’s fair for MJ Rodriguez to be nominated alongside female performers? Or for any male to be nominated in female categories/female in male categories?

It honestly doesn’t matter to me. They're more about deciding which studio gets more money anyway. It’s a farce.

Do you think trans actors should be able to play characters who aren’t trans (but are the opposite sex)?

Yes though they won’t let them.

Do you think actors who aren’t trans should be able to play trans characters?

No because they’ve proven time and again they can’t handle the responsibility and those are literally the only jobs trans actors can get.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-08-04T13:18:49+00:00

Mandated neutral single occupancy locker rooms and bathrooms. A separate prison facility if feasible, fully sealed wing if not.

Hrt easily available. Surgical intervention covered but only with psychological approval and diagnosis.

Nondiscrimation in employment, housing, and medicine for sex, gender, and if necessary gender nonconformity.

Conversion therapy on trans people is illegal (also on homosexuality)

Sex Education includes trans people and homosexuality, but is also encouraging of non trans gender nonconformity.

Therapy regarding gender is free and encouraged to anyone who wishes to explore but without pushing for either outcome. (An exploratory rather than agenda’d approach)

ID And birth certificate changes with bottom surgery.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-08-04T12:18:50+00:00

Its more evidence we can’t compete with men but my stance has always been trans women can’t really be in sports at all so nothing changes.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-08-01T01:02:02+00:00

I think its generally transphobia, misunderstanding what trans people are actually like and our situation, or the perception of incompatible aims. Either alone or in some combination.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-30T10:08:22+00:00

Trans people have gained enormous political power. If their lobby can pass laws allowing natal males in female prisons and female sports, they could damn sure bring about gender-neutral restrooms or protected prison wings.

Neither of those cost money and are far from universal. For instance if I were arrested today, despite being post op I would be put in men’s Jail and eventually men’s prison in this state.

Your life can still have value and meaning even if you don't look like how society expects.

Thank you. I’m not suicidal, I also don’t think my life has value or meaning but I’m not planning on ending it.

I disagree, though. What would be their rationale?

Because it’s pretense. It doesn’t matter if that’s really the case or not. It’s the same thing as “sincere religious belief” justifying gay discrimination over protections for gay people. If you leave a loophole, bigots will use it.

As far as I know, gay people also don't have federal legal protections for sexual orientation either in terms of housing and employment discrimination.

They don’t but should.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-30T09:20:59+00:00

Well, I suppose they just feel it's not their fight.

It’s an action/inaction thing I suppose. Consider the trolly problem. Trans women are the ones on the second track, the act of banning us from those spaces is pulling the lever so the trolly hits us. Encouraging the ban without an adequate safeguard is an action doing us harm; whether you think that makes it blameworthy is a whole ethical debate.

Trans people could actually make them happen. They have a huge political lobby at the moment. If the LGBT community threw their collective weight towards things like protected prison wings and gender-neutral restrooms, they could absolutely create laws that would mandate them. The LGB has power they can use to help the T. And plenty of non-trans people would vote in favor.

Lgb people could maybe. Trans people can’t. You all really underestimate our level or influence. Look at employment protections, basically universally pushed for and advocated for by trans people for decades and it still only happened judicially rather than something more secure in a statute. Let alone getting something that would cost so much money as a mandated facility change.

I wonder what their reasoning is. Some natal males are terrible, no doubt, but I don't see how any trans woman could be worse than others. There are plenty of male-identifying men who are straight out of a horror movie, killers, rapists, and God knows what else.

I honestly just think some here simply hate trans women. It’s not a logical thing necessarily.

But passing transsexual women have always had access to female bathrooms. There's no lock on the door. As you say, if you're not passing and not comfortable using either men's or women's restrooms, then how does this affect you? Despite self-ID laws, you're still in the same boat. Unless we have dedicated third spaces, then someone on one side or the other is going to be uncomfortable.

I use women’s rooms if no neutral facilities are available which is usually the case. A ban would force me to only go places that have a neutral restroom which are rare in this part of the country.

I say just make a blanket protection for "gender presentation." That protects you and it protects me.

Because it doesn’t protect me. All they need say is they are acting in that fashion not because I am dressed but because I am trans. If they claim that they wouldn’t ban a cis man who looked and dressed like me they could argue it isn’t about presentation but an unprotected belief or even unprotected mental condition (gender dysphoria being excluded specifically from the ADA)

I would strongly oppose any GC person who tried to stop people from adopting based on trans status.

Fair enough but some gc people would disagree with you there.

And of course housing discrimination and voting discrimination should not exist.

But they do and trans people aren’t protected. Part of what if changes do is help prevent those for the lucky that pass. And We still don’t have legal protections for them.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-30T09:04:58+00:00

Do you still see yourself as transmedicalist?

Yes.

That's really tricky, because that is really the most established form of treatment that's available currently and it doesn't seem ethical to just ban exogenous hormones or surgeries without a comparable alternative in their place.

To me transition is an acceptable if unfortunate outcome. I don’t want anyone to transition who doesn’t need to but transition isn’t harmful to those who need it. I suppose to be being a natal woman would be better but I just can’t see “becoming a cis man” as a successful outcome. Turning a trans woman into a cis man seems like a loss to me. But I also want enough safeguards that only those who need to are transitioning. Having a cis man transition wrongly also feels like a loss. I don’t honestly know how I feel about trans men. Wanting to be masculine or wanting to be a man is so wildly foreign to me I just try not to judge them and be supportive.

If you don't mind my asking, how do you think trans women who might not pass, like Miranda Yardley, are able to see things from a gender critical perspective? Or get on with the GC crowd?

Honestly I assume you either deep self hatred or some kind of pathological need to please. I really try not to ascribe that to people but I can’t fathom another reason someone could campaign against their own interests and ability to live.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-29T10:07:54+00:00

I’m not a proponent if trans women in sports I’m talking about vulnerability to men.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-28T10:50:55+00:00

I didn’t bring morality into it. I explicitly disavowed blameworthiness.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-27T10:48:30+00:00

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me it isn't that you don't face discrimination or marginalization because you clearly do.

Even this is more than many gc people admit honestly. There are often accusations that essentially we are somehow societally elevated or protected Even above men

I also don't feel obligated to help you or other males fix your problems which are caused by other males, especially at my expense.

If you don’t think you have a moral obligation to help that’s fine, but I at least don’t want people denying we are marginalized.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-20T11:22:22+00:00

Implying mental illness isn’t constructive criticism. It’s just lazy adhominem attacks.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-20T11:11:36+00:00

What you describe sounds closer to bpd than anything regarding having a traumatic event shape your entire personality

Given the context of me discussing it own feelings and history the clear implication is that I have BPD.

Of course after you calling me narcissistic and solipsistic already.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-20T10:48:48+00:00

You can’t expect anyone to believe this denial.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-20T02:55:07+00:00

why do you make such sweeping statements as soap operas are "considered & coded feminine" and "women wear makeup to look pretty" & insist that all of society holds the same view?

That’s the base level societal view pressed out. Not an ideal I’m pitching or a universal. That’s the way people are generally coached.

To me body dysphoria is requisite to being trans and the reason that trans women need to be separated from transvestities. The trappings are incidental. It’s about the body dysphoria.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-19T18:38:35+00:00

I’m not asserting that generalizing is universal or the cause of all gender variance. Just a cause for some tastes in some people.

Your claim that "99 of the time my mom only woman I saw outside of school" means in school you saw other women & you have chosen to filter them out. Why is that? Were the other women you saw in school different to your mother in any respect?

By an large not really. It’s selective because they were teachers of children and administrators in schools. That attracts a certain personality not that different from my mom. There was variance but in the broad strokes really not that difference. Other that our very butch PE teacher but even she was quite warm and caring.

Moreover, your references to watching soap operas with your mom means you had a television & you watched it as a kid. Were all the women you saw on TV really exactly like your mom? Did they have all the sex stereotypical "feminine" traits you now associate with women? As a child, did you never see movies with scary, evil women in them like "The Wizard of Oz" or "Snow White"? Didn't you hear or read any fairytales & books?

Sure there were some female villains but also they tended to be quite feminine. It was the 80’s. Even he-man and she-ra’s villains were extremely feminine coded.

When you say "my dad was the only man I saw period until like middle school at least" can it really be true you went your whole early childhood without ever seeing or hearing of a male doctor, dentist, letter carrier, mechanic, police officer, home repairman, taxi or truck driver, neighbor, shop keeper, priest or other clergy, politician, soldier, train conductor, road crew member, construction worker, farmer, tractor driver, cowboy, Indian "brave," world explorer, pirate, gunslinger, sheriff, captain of industry, businessman, president, prime minister, pope, astronaut, inventor, firefighter? Didn't you read any story books? You never heard of the knights of the roundtable, Robin Hood, Columbus, Captain Hook, Old MacDonald, Bob the builder, Moses, Jesus, Mohammed or God the father, etc?

And exaggeration. Man I saw regularly then. And the ones I did see were often my fathers friends who were just like him. Thanks did have a woman as my pediatrician I remember. Beyond that I don’t have a robust childhood memory set but I’m told that’s common with trauma in childhood. And god is pretty counter to your ideal. I was raised southern baptist. That god really embodied the violent, wrathful and temperamental image that my father built in me for men.

As to other media, there’s a difference between fictional exposure and actual exposure. Particularly when you are talking about development.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-19T17:55:40+00:00

But in your previous you said that watching & liking soap opera style melodramas "is considered feminine"

Because it is

you implied this is because of something you deem is innate in female people.

I absolutely did not. I expressly said bot all women like soaps and never came close to implying it was innate. The whole conversation is about how interests are shaped by social influence. Nothing innate about it.

Interestingly, in the passage of mine you chose to quote, you only address one of the two main points I made & ignore the other. My other point was about your tendency to take your own personal beliefs about what is "feminine" and project them onto all of human society in the effort to make it seem that your own idiosyncratic views are universal views held by pretty much everyone on earth. I suggested that this tendency smacks of male socialization, & of narcissism & solipsism, though I did say that "maybe this isn't the case with you." But how about you address this other point?

There’s not a point there. Society genders stuff. Me pointing that out isn’t narcissism or “male entitlement” no Matter how much you imply it then wink at the camera.

You are attributing the bullying you got to "gendered norms," not with to the homophobia, misogyny, male supremacy & authoritarian impulse toward social convention that underlie "gendered norms" & gave rise to them in the first place.

They aren’t exclusive

I am sorry you were bullied & called homophobic slurs. My hunch is that most of the people who did this bullying were males, so this was mainly male-on-male homophobic bullying.

But you weren't bullied "as a girl" like you say. You were bullied as a boy by other boys who were as misogynistic as they were homophobic. If they called you a girl, it was because in their eyes, that was the ultimate put-down, the worst insult they could come up with. They did not actually see you "as a girl."

I mean they literally called me a girl. They feminized my name and called me that for years. But yes that was mysogynistic use of the feminine as an insult.

As for your query, "Have you ever been around a male child of any sort?" & then your description of the bullying you got in school: In this remark & many others on these threads over many months, you give the impression that you think you & other males like you are the only ones who ever got bullied in school.

I don’t imply that at all. We were bullied for specific traits which reinforce gender roles. That’s my point. Poor kids and poc kids, and smart kids all got bullied too but that’s not relevant because it wasn’t reinforcing the relevant behaviors to this discussion.

IMO you appear to have a self-centered POV that is clear evidence of male socialization, solipsism & narcissism.

Use male socialization as a card all you want but please stop accusing me of fictional mental illnesses to attempt to tear me down. It’s deeply ableist. I have several mental illnesses narcissism and solipsism aren’t among them. Stop.

For the record, girls get constantly bullied by boys in school. And girls get routinely sexually molested by boys in school too. This happens whether we are "gender conforming" or non-conforming. Boys & men do this to us because we are female, not because we are - or are not - "feminine."

I agree that happens though bullying girls to be more feminine is certainly a thing that happens. Why deny that?

I was a girl child who was frequently sexually harassed & groped by boys in throughout my schooling. This started in first grade when boys nicknamed me "skinhead" after a hairdresser went overboard in giving me the pixie cut lots of little girls my age customarily wore, & when two boys shoved me into a coat closet, pushed me onto the floor & punched me as they pulled up the skirt of my school uniform & pulled down my underpants. In lower & middle school, I & other girls I went to school with were verbally abused & physically abused by boys pretty much every day. Boys would routinely insult us for running & throwing "like a girl," for being "stupid/dumb like a girl," for being "gross like girls" & "spastic/slow/klutzy like girls." Boys would push us, pull our hair, trip us, aim spitballs at us, grab our books & lunches & toss them to one another, & as we got older they would routinely gang up to corner & grope us to see if we were developing breasts yet or wearing bras. Starting in 6th grade (US school), girls who had long hair & had the bad luck to sit in front of certain especially malevolent boys in the school I attended often had the ends of their hair singed or burnt off by the boys' Bic lighters too. Once we got to age 10-11 and started sprouting breasts & menstruating, boys' sexual harassment & body shaming of us girls ramped up even worse. Later in my schooling, I was one of a small number of women in the first class of female students admitted as undergraduates to a prestigious US university that had been all-male for hundreds of years until then. Whilst the majority of male students, professors & administrators were decent to us, a significant number were not. As a result, I & the other women in my class were bullied on a regular basis by male students & some professors & administrators just for being there. We were called all sorts of awful names too disgusting to repeat. A number of male students threatened us with rape & other forms of physical assault as well. I got death threats, & once during first year some male students doused my dorm room door with lighter fluid & set it on fire.

I’m sorry all that happened but I never said or implied it didn’t. Bully to reinforce gendered norms is just one facet. People get bullied for many reasons and it’s shameful it wasn’t more properly dealt with.

I've taught classes for young children in school & in summer programs. I am the mother of grown sons. As a mum, I have hosted many birthday parties, groups sleepovers, camping trips & house parties for large groups of young males. I know full well how sexist, misogynistic & homophobic males can be, particularly school-age ones. Based on this, I disagree with you that the root cause of male bullying of girls & women, & of boys perceived to be homosexual, or to have homosexual leanings, is "gendered norms." I think the root cause is sex.

It’s a cause of one kind of bullying not the root cause of all bullying. That being said it’s pretty wild to assert that bullying by boys of girls and other boys is somehow the result of sex.

I’m out of time to respond to the rest, I will try to pick up later.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-19T13:54:09+00:00

Defining women as those who watch "soap opera style melodramas" and "wear makeup to look pretty" might not be objectifying in every aspect of the dictionary definition, but it's still an insulting characterization that reduces us to superficial, sexist, wholly inaccurate stereotypes that are deeply misogynistic and dehumanizing.

I don’t think it’s conscious, it’s absorbing societal messaging.

Your claim that watching & enjoying soap opera style melodramas "is considered feminine" by society in general is laughable. The reality is that you personally consider it feminine. Maybe this isn't the case with you, but IME individuals who blithely assume their own personal views must be universal views held by everyone else are displaying arrogant, self-centered tendencies that often come from distinctly male socialization. And/or from a parochialism stemming from personality problems like narcissism & solipsism, which also are traits fostered by male socialization.

This is a stretch. The genre literally was made for women because it was targeted to housewives. I’m not saying all women like soaps, but they are absolutely made to target women.

Also, the rest of the world isn't fixated on coding everything human do as either "feminine" or "masculine" the way genderists are.

Have you ever been around a male child in school of any sort? You can get bullied as a girl or a faggot for months for wearing a pink shirt. You vastly underestimate how hard gendered norms are attached and enforced if you think most people don’t code things as masculine or feminine.

Also, the rest of the world isn't fixated on coding everything human do as either "feminine" or "masculine" the way genderists are. The ridiculously sexist "logic" of gender ideology often leads to odd conclusions. For example, according to your view that watching soap opera style melodramas "is considered feminine" means that the acerbic Greg House of the TV series House, an unsociable character meant to be the bad boy big man of diagnostic medicine as well as a Lothario and dickhead, was "feminine" because watching soap operas on TV was one of his favorite pastimes.

It’s a feminine coded activity. The inclusion of that trait for house was as a joke. Same as when John Spartan knitting in demolition man was. It is a joke for contrast based on the very fact they are activities society takes as feminine

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-19T13:08:45+00:00

Most of the trans people I’ve been around were in support groups so it’s pretty selective. Like you may be right but I don’t think I can say definitively .

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-19T12:53:24+00:00

That I can’t speak to.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-19T12:47:20+00:00

I believe so. We are substantially more likely to be bi or homosexual (by your reckoning) than either sex’s norm.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-19T12:14:48+00:00

There are also far more of us who you would identify as gay relative to birth sex. I don’t have a link handy but one relatively large scale survey had about 1/3 of us identifying as gay, bi, and straight.

That puts us by your reckoning as 30 percent homosexual and 30 percent by which is wildly above average.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-19T11:23:59+00:00

See, the thing with that version is that it’s not anything like what females experience, and it feels very condescending to be told that a filtered and selected version of what we endure is in any way the same thing.

I don’t think I’ve ever said they were. What we experience is different from male socialization but I don’t think I’ve ever said it’s exactly the same as natal women.

I think you are not characterizing it correctly. It’s not objectifying. Like I happen to enjoy soap opera style melodramas because it has as positive association with watching One life to live with my mom. That’s considered feminine but hardly objectifying. The same can be said for women more generally. It’s not aping women. It’s someone hearing from society that women wear makeup to look pretty, and then learning that social desire to look pretty and developing an interest in makeup. It’s not mimicking or aping women, but rather absorbing the messaging society has to and about them formatively. You are mischaracterizing our evolved personalities and interests as an act of mimicry when in fact it’s just us expressing our own desires, shaped as they are by social experience.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-19T10:55:24+00:00

I don’t think it’s conscious. More from a place of feeling or wanting to be like girls or women then shaping your tastes based on how you see them act or be treated. Think of it as a sort of second hand female socialization. Not the same but a sort of filtered or indirect version.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-19T08:37:37+00:00

To elaborate with a hypothetical. Supposing I had an innate sense of wanting to have a woman’s body, I might learn to gravitate to things that are associated with women as I was socialized.

If on the other hand I had a structural predisposition to dysphoria which was triggered or worsened by early life experiences, as in my life could have happened from the combination of an abusive father and an apparently loving mother creating or strengthening a negative association with men and masculinity, I would learn to like the things associated with the mother that I had positive associations with.

The net result of either is learning to like things which come in line who who you feel you are as you are socialized, even as society attempts to socialize you into your “proper” role the other direction.

In essence who you are (innately or as shaped formatively) helps shape what you like through what society says that person should like at least partly.

I hope I’m being clear but I worry this may be muddled.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-15T00:32:18+00:00

Basically everyone does. I don’t pass so people treat me like shit. I get called a man constantly even thought it is impossible not to know I am a trans woman on sight.

Men are monsters. I don’t want to be associated with them. They are bad.

Calling me that is a heinous insult. There are only a few things I would be more insulted to be called.

No I’m not okay. I’ve said as much. The world treats me like a freak. Why would I be okay?

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-12T08:52:29+00:00

I’m bisexual, so I’ve been told many times that bisexuality doesn’t exist (or doesn’t exist in men) and that I am actually either gay or straight—it’s never caused an identity crisis in me, but it is somewhat common for bisexual people to have identity crises over these sorts of messages. But the difference is that regardless of anyone’s personal opinions on bisexuality, or self-identification, there is objective criteria for bisexuality and ways to objectively measure bisexuality.

You telling me I’m wrong about my identity doesn’t put me in a crisis. I know who I am whether you like it or not. Yes it’s insulting and it hurts to be called something you consider so vile but there’s no crisis. What it does represent though is the attitude that would deny us the ability to live a tolerable life. That’s the attitude that would deny us access to transition, to ensure that society treats us like monsters, and to ensure that we can never really be at peace in the world. I know who I am but being told I’m not is both an insult and a threat.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-09T17:12:55+00:00

Gender dysphoria is what makes someone trans. The idea that it didn’t exist until 1970 is absolutely ludicrous.

The Hijra don’t feel comfortable living as men, so they shed the male label and live separately in a way that better works for them, more mirroring women . It’s not like they had exogenous hormones available in 2000 BC so they couldn’t change physically like we do now originally though now many do. That seems at minimum a cleat analogue.

I can only assume you are trolling at this point.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-09T13:53:33+00:00

I think it’s quite common for us really. Like trans women who sleep with chasers even though we are literally just fetish objects to them.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-07T02:27:16+00:00

I don’t support no screening bottom surgery if that isn’t clear. At minimum you should need a psych to Okay you. That isn’t a surgery you want to regret.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-06T11:05:37+00:00

Literally the lack of access to bathrooms and changing facilities does. The whole point of what we’ve been talking about. If you can’t go somewhere without violence, you can’t go there. It’s not a difficult concept.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-06T01:01:49+00:00

I’m a transmedicalist if that wasn’t clear.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-05T21:09:36+00:00

Tolerance isn’t living. Bring a freak people pretend doesn’t exist isn’t something to shoot for. So we push for acceptance.

Third spaces aren’t viable. People hate trans people they wouldn’t want to do something just for us. No one will spend money on resources that won’t see use most days. It necessarily outs the ones lucky enough to pass.

Single neutral spaces don’t have those problems.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-05T19:07:18+00:00

I do hate myself but that’s not the point.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-05T08:25:39+00:00

It is shameful. It’s bad to be trans. Everyone agrees. Shit you agree. Advocating for trans people to be seen as some abnormal other doesn’t help anyone. If we are just saying we are women, the conflict ends in peace if we win. Pushing the narrative that we are some phantom other doesn’t have a positive endpoint, it just convinces people we ate some phantom other who don’t belong anywhere if it’s successful.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-05T07:27:50+00:00

Things will never be good for nonpassing trans people but they aren’t getting better by making them some unrelatable other.

You are saying not just accept but encourage people to think of us other than we think of ourselves. “I’m a woman but Instead think of me as some uncomfortable other that won’t fit in anywhere ever”.

What you are asking is for us to become basically American Hijra. And life isn’t Awesome for Hijra if you weren’t aware.

I’m a woman so I want people to think of me as a woman. They usually don’t which is depressing and sucks but won’t be improved by telling them not to.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-05T06:17:55+00:00

And how can people stop othering you if even you yourself are making being trans out to be this shameful thing that should be kept secret?

They won’t no matter what. And it is a shameful thing that should be kept a secret if you can. Stealth is your only chance at a normal life.

People are nice to things they pity sometimes. Like feeding an ugly stray dog. That’s how trans people have everything we have. Being pathetic.

Yeah I know if you don’t care we are treated like wretches.

There are actually trans people living boring ass humdrum lives like the rest of us, some of them are on this sub.

Because they are stealth. You don’t get a life as an out trans person. No one will love you. You will struggle to fine even mediocre employment. You will exist and noone will care of you live or die. Stealth people get lives. We get … existences. Shit this isn’t even about me. I don’t pass. But I want others who might be able to to have a shot at a life worth living.

Humans are social creatures and if you are treated like a freak by everyone you interact with it effects you.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-04T23:26:38+00:00

Sorry got clipped off there. Being “trans not men or women” is not going to lead to us living normal lives. It’s necessaarilly othering. Plus many might take offense and feel like shit to be told legally they aren’t real people.

Plus trans people will never be accepted. Like being visibly trans will never not suck. It’s not salvageable. Stealth will always be better for the stealth person.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-04T23:23:57+00:00

Question- aside from fear of discrimination (like real discrimination- work, housing, medical- not women not wanting you to join their women’s book club), what real reason is there to be worried about being outed?

None materially, but that’s an ever present threat. Plus literally everyone will treat you better if they think you are cis. My life sucks because everyone knows I’m trans. I’d kill (metaphorically) to just be seen as normal.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-04T21:26:58+00:00

I’m for single occupancy neutral spaces as I’ve said a million times. My point is it’s about safety not just “being uncomfortable” around men.

Build third spaces and I’ll argue we should be using them. Until then people have to get by.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-04T20:44:01+00:00

… the concept of being uncomfortable around male bodies is something that is understood and sympathized with- but only if you’re a male yourself?

It’s not just comfort. It’s safety. If I go into a men’s locker room I will at least have a higher than average chance of being physically assaulted. Why can’t you at least acknowledge that as a motivation for not wanting to be in men’s spaces? Men are dangerous to trans women. Being in an enclosed and isolated space with them more so. Can you at least acknowledge that? You know i prefer single occupancy spaces anyway but you know that at minimum some trans women don’t want to be in men’s spaces because they are worried about physical harm.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-04T20:40:02+00:00

That is an incomplete understanding of how criminal laws work both since they vary by location and that they usually have some intention element (mens rea) ranging from recklessly to intentionally

That aside, it shouldn’t matter ideally. Yes pre op trans women shouldn’t expose their genitals in those settings but also anyone leering in a locker room should be removed, trans or not.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-03T10:39:40+00:00

I honestly don’t know. Like I can’t envision a world where I wanted to be a cis man. I hate them and don’t trust them. I don’t want to be one. I’d love to be a natal woman, I’ll accept being a trans woman, but anything that sought to make me a cis man feels evil and wrong an a hideous level to me personally.

Not to mention I think any movement in that direction is going to be inexorably tied to enforced masculinity (or femininity for trans men) because any money with that goal isn’t going to be seeking to make gnc people, they will be seeking to manufacture gender conforming people.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-03T01:55:19+00:00

Tyra Hunter. Evan Minton. This survey says about 1 in 5 of us have been beside care .

https://www.thetaskforce.org/new-report-reveals-rampant-discrimination-against-transgender-people-by-health-providers-high-hiv-rates-and-widespread-lack-of-access-to-necessary-care-2/

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-02T01:47:18+00:00

Feel free to cite any of those numbers. And, yet again, I’m not arguing we should compete with natal women I am saying we can’t compete with men.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-01T20:49:35+00:00

Yeah it needs clarity. Being denied medical care is one of the most damaging discrimination actions.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-01T20:48:24+00:00

I’m openly against us competing against natal women. I’ve made that clear.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-01T19:26:41+00:00

I mean I believe you specifically hate me. Like not generally. You called me a rapist.

I’m not blocking you or anything.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-01T19:25:30+00:00

But there is though. Even leaving aside the nature of sport itself. Those men are the worst of them. Trans women would be targeted and harassed no question. Literally the men would prevent it.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-01T18:46:48+00:00

No. They could share a field but couldn’t compete more than your high school basketball team could compete against the Nicks.

With some exceptions there’s no rule against it but it serves none of the purposes of sport. It isn’t a competition. It doesn’t provide physical benefit or comraderie or fun. It isn’t ethically similar to a sport. It’s an echo of a sport. Like the globetrotters pretending to play the generals.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-01T18:43:57+00:00

I see where you are going but ultimately I’m not bothered for the language. I just want to be legally protected.

A dysphoric individual isn’t necessarily trans,

I actually wouldn’t agree.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-01T18:37:53+00:00

Well, I hope you know that I care about your well being.

Thank you.

It’s about the same I think. The one that sticks out as being most hateful of me personally (as opposed to all trans people) is Sloane who is obviously still here but I think there’s a bit less vehement sentiments in general. On the flip side I think there is almost no qt people speaking up at all. Most of the trans people seem quite Gc leaning with maybe 1 or 2 exceptions.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-01T18:35:15+00:00

Part of competition involves contest. It’s not sport for a trans woman to get destroyed by a cis dude. It’s Bullying with a ball. It isn’t sport.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-01T18:05:14+00:00

Me personally, no but I also won’t go to the doctor for anything nonemergency except to my pcp who is expressly trans friendly.

The point is it isn’t illegal (edit referring to nonemergency care). We aren’t entitled to nondiscrimination in health care and that’s an important right.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-01T17:48:59+00:00

Thanks but I’m very much not. Being here is a real emotional backslide.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-07-01T17:48:27+00:00

Debatably both since Trumps “conscience in care” guidance was never formally countered, but legally I think that’s correct. Even then is still wrong to refuse me a tetanus shot or an ankle splint because I am trans.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-11-13T18:47:35+00:00

I’m deeply uncormtable with the idea that this would be called rape. Essentially anything could be “potentially disqualifying” so it opens the door to calling anyone who didn’t write an autobiography for a potential partner a rapist.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-11-13T16:42:42+00:00

I personally believe it’s from both. A structural predilection and societal pressure to conform to identity contrary to interest. But it needs more research.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-11-12T23:10:35+00:00

I’m saying appearance matters to how trans people are treated. That’s it.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-11-12T22:43:02+00:00

You don’t stop having BPD or Being traumatized. You learn to cope or medicate but you don’t just stop. Coping mechanisms like say changing your body to better fit yourself for taking medication to feel better. Like transition.

I don’t know what you mean by the ED part. I’m assuming you don’t mean Ehlers Danlos.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-11-12T22:36:16+00:00

It doesn’t. It differentiates between men and trans women on a structural level. That’s my point.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-11-12T22:26:21+00:00

It feels right because it feels right. Like how your name sounds right. It just doesn’t produce an aversion. Not because I am effeminate. Man, by contrast, produces a visceral negative reaction.

I’ve given a list based definition before and you all said it wasn’t sufficient so I’m not going to give you one. Woman feels right, man feels disgusting. It’s really not more complicated than that for me at this point. Leave the analysis to people smarter than me.

circlingmyownvoid2 · 2021-11-12T22:22:29+00:00

Which structures in the brain? I’m Not a neuroscientist but I do recall a study showing that trans women had white matter formations in the brain distinct from men.

circlingmyownvoid2