Tra/qt how is ‘examine your genital preference’ not homosexual conversion therapy?

submitted by HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex from self.GCdebatesQT

Title basically.

When a natal male tells a natal female homosexual that her sexuality is harming him via his exclusion from it, is he or is he not indicating that her sexuality is wrong? Does the woman owe an explanation of her sexuality?

If a homosexual man is asked to explain or justify why he excludes women from his potential sexual/romantic partners, is it an attempt at conversion or is it acceptable to question a persons homosexuality?

If homosexuality is a quality that can be questioned by the homosexual person, is homosexuality truly innate? Or is it a choice?

Is any sexuality innate if it’s something that can supposedly be “corrected” by external efforts?

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[–]FlanJam 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm kinda surprised trans activists haven't tried to make a "genital preference deconstruction workshop" yet. They did make the cotton ceiling workshop after all.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

They’ll get there

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

It's a bad idea.

But I do find it ironic this coming from gender critical where Sheila Jeffreys is a leading figure.

Sheila Jeffreys supports political lesbianism as does Julie Bindel. "I think it's time for feminists to re-open the debate about heterosexuality, and to embrace the idea of political lesbianism."

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Not that I'm a proponent of political lesbianism, but I must point out that political lesbianism is totally different to what's described in the OP.

The feminists who advocate political lesbianism do so amongst feminist women. Their view is that other feminist women should stop sleeping and life-partnering with men, and ally with women instead. This is something that some members of an oppressed group think other members of the same oppressed group who share a worldview should do together for the benefit of the group as a whole and the women in it. AFAIK, feminists who advocate political lesbianism are not suggesting it for all women, just for feminist women - and they're certainly not trying to get the opposite sex involved in political lesbianism.

The OP is about some males using QT and their special "gender identity" status to try to shame, guilt and coerce lesbians to have sex with them - and some females using the same rationale and similar methods to try to pressure gay men to have with them. These people are doing this for their own selfish aims. Those aims are to get their own individual sexual pleasure, to have their personal identities "validated" - aka for narcissistic supply - and to get the thrill of getting others to bend to their authoritarian will.

The women who espouse political lesbianism for feminist women say it will benefit the women who engage in it, advance feminism and advance women's rights and interests generally. Are QT people who are trying to trample the sex boundaries of lesbians and gay men saying that having sex with people they don't want to have sex with, and who are of the sex they are not attracted to, will be of benefit to lesbians and gay men personally and politically? I realize that they're probably using tired old lines likes, "Try it, you'll like it" and "Broadening your horizons will be good for you." But are they also saying that a good way to advance lesbian and gay rights and gay liberation is for same-sex attracted people to have sex with the opposite sex? That the best things gays and lesbians can do to further greater acceptance of and justice for homosexual people is to have heterosex?

[–]BiologyIsReal 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

So, women hold different opinions on a given topic even when they agree on other things. Shocking! Who could have guessed it?

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

One of the sides you are talking about says that you should force yourself to fuck people you don' t want to fuck because those people deserve to get laid and might be hurt if they don' t.

The other says that associating with women (in general, not sexually) is more beneficial for women than associating with men (sexually and not).

Yeah, you' re right, it' s the same thing! 🙄

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Not all of us immediately support the idea of political lesbians, as gender critical is not a monolith. Do you have anything behind that strawman?

[–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Way late to reply to this thread, but I agree with you. I'm against both TQ homophobia and the homophobic "political lesbians" concept, and the two have a lot more in common than many people care to admit.

Not giving a pass to TRAs, though; "examine your genital preferences" is conversion therapy rhetoric.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think people even have a right to a gender expression preference. But I'm a gender essentialist so I would think that.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (134 children)

Asking someone to analyze something isn’t equivalent to demanding a change.

If someone tells you they don’t like trains and you ask why it isn’t a demand to change, but a search for analysis.

If your answer is “It takes to long with all the stops so isn’t convenient for my lifestyle” that’s not something anyone is saying change. If the answer is “because poor people ride them and they are diseased” that’s a problematic belief worth addressing and even after changing that problematic belief you may still not like trains for non problematic reasons.

The genital preference thing is similar. If you say you are in to women but not trans women and someone asks why, that’s not demanding change. If the answer is “because I’m not attracted to penises or neovaginas” that’s not problematic. If the answer is “because trans women are men” that is a problematic belief that they may ask you to address, but also leaves open the possibility that you wouldn’t be attracted to trans women even if you addressed that bigoted belief (that trans women are men). They aren’t saying you should sleep with trans women, they are saying that if you exclude trans women you should examine why to see if there is a bigoted belief behind it. No one is saying change, they are saying analyze yourself to see if you have bigoted beliefs which that preference might be indicative of.

The goal isn’t to change the preference. That’s the difference.

[–]penelopekitty 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (33 children)

Trans women are men. That is a fact not a belief.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (32 children)

Many people would disagree. Ultimately it’s a semantic disagreement.

[–]Penultimate_Penance 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's a reality vs make believe disagreement.

[–]penelopekitty 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (29 children)

It is not semantics. Sex is real and cannot be changed. It doesn't matter if some people disagree, they're wrong. Some people think the earth is flat. We know exactly who is a man and who is a woman. Why aren't gay couples hiring trans women as surrogates?

Look, I know you desperately want to believe what you're saying but it's just not true.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (28 children)

It literally is semantics. It’s a disagreement about the meaning of man and woman. It’s in fact a purely semantic question.

[–]penelopekitty 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (27 children)

Complete nonsense. We all know who is a man and a woman. These are sex based words, they mean something.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (26 children)

They mean different things to a lot of people than to you.

[–]BiologyIsReal 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Changing the meaning of words don't change the underlaying reality. What is more, save for very rare cases people can easily tell your actual sex regardless of how much effort you put into concealing it. A man calling himself a woman don't make him one. Just like calling himself a cat doens't make him one.

And why should women accept being defined as nothing more than a bunch of sexist stereotypes by males who say they are "women"? Why should we care not to hurt the feelings of said males when it's pretty clear they don't care at all about our feelings and safety?

[–]penelopekitty 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

No. I am a woman. I'm beyond sick and tired of men appropriating this. No man can ever become a woman or female in any sense of the word. The audacity of those who think they can is breathtaking.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Language evolves.

[–]BiologyIsReal 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, language evolves. However, first, this is not a natural evolution of the language, but a top-to-bottom change pushed by trans activists. And second, you cannot change the underlying reality of the sexes by playing word games. You may force everyone to lie by using your sexist definitions for man and woman, but guess what? Males who claim to be "women" are going to still be males from birth to death and, except for very rare cases, people are going to keep recognizing said males as the males they are. And likewise for females who identify as "men".

So, what does this authoritarian and sexist language change acomplish? Not hurting the feeling of people who identify as trans? Why should we prioritize your feeling over anything else? Why should women accept being defined as nothing more than a bunch of sexist stereotypes by males who say they are "women"? Why should we care not to hurt the feelings of said males when it's pretty clear they don't care at all about our feelings and safety?

[–]penelopekitty 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Not like this. Nobody gave you permission to steal from women. Create your own words.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

If a lot of people insist that a triangle can have five sides as well as three, does a triangle become two different shapes?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (19 children)

The meaning of triangle changes, yes.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

You don’t see any issues trying to teach geometry? Everyone should just shrug and say I guess ‘tri’ means any number we want?

Is language still even useful if it cannot communicate specific ideas because it’s all just sounds that mean anything?

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 4 fun6 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

If someone tells you they don’t like trains and you ask why it isn’t a demand to change, but a search for analysis.

If your answer is “It takes to long with all the stops so isn’t convenient for my lifestyle” that’s not something anyone is saying change. If the answer is “because poor people ride them and they are diseased” that’s a problematic belief worth addressing and even after changing that problematic belief you may still not like trains for non problematic reasons

Wow, it sounds like you know a lot of trainsphobes. That's too bad. Most people I know really like trains. Lots of people are huge fans of trains, life size actual trains, scale-model trains, toy trains like Brio and and fictional trains like in The Little Engine That Could and Thomas, Percy and the gang. Many adults including big-name celebrities like Rod Stewart and Jools Holland have extensive model train collections. Some of the biggest entertainment draws are model train exhibitions. Back in the 90s, I used to see David Byrne at the holiday season model train displays at the NY Botanical Gardens, Citi Corp building in midtown Manhattan, and in the lower levels of the World Trade Center - which my son back then referred to as "the World Train Center." Millions, even billions, of people love trains. You could even say they/we are all on board...

https://youtu.be/jd34Ioye5v4

https://youtu.be/hHkKJfcBXcw

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

What?

[–]BiologyIsReal 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

If you (general you) didn't expect a change, you'd not be so insistent with this bussiness of questioning why people choose partners based on sex rather than "gender identity". You can deny this all you want, but we still can see how angry trans identified people often get when they are reject. We can see how many trans identified people harrass those who refuse to play along with their chosen "identities" in the bed.

There is no doubt that societal prejudices may influence who you choose as your romantic or sexual partners. However, first, no ones owns you sex. And second, trans identified people's struggles with dating are, honestly, self imposed. This is not about bigotry. Sex is binary and immutable in humans. We've evolved to recognize other people's sex without need need to pull down anyone's pants. And sexual orientation is based on sex; how you feel about the sex you're born is irrelevant. If, for whatever reason, a trans identified person decides to go only after incompatible people, then said person should not be surpried when they keep getting rejected. It's like as if someone is only interested in dating fellow atheists, but goes to the church to meet potential partners and then gets mad whe they keep talking about God.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

The point isn’t the dating. That’s why it’s still being asked by those who are partnered. Or those who don’t date.

no one owes you sex

Yeah. I’ve never said anything contrary to that nor would I.

And second, trans identified people's struggles with dating are, honestly, self imposed.

We don’t choose to be trans. Christ you think I wouldn’t be a cis woman if I could? If it were an option I certainly wouldn’t be a trans women.

And please stop playing the religion game. It’s not a religion.

[–]BiologyIsReal 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

This is not about what you personally do, but what trans identified people in general do. And it turns out that a good deal of them intentionally seek out people whose sexual orientation makes them impossible partners, e.g. males who say they are "women" trying to date lesbians. It turns that many trans identified people are so set in chasing an imposible partnership and ignoring other people's boundaries that they are willing to go "stealth". It turns out that many trans identified people on so offended by being rejected (in spite of SEXual orientation being based on biological sex, not "gender identity"), that they are very keen on threathening, pressuring into sex or punishing in any other way people who are not willing to play along with "trans" identities in the bed.

We don’t choose to be trans. Christ you think I wouldn’t be a cis woman if I could? If it were an option I certainly wouldn’t be a trans women.

That is absurd, you cannot know this. You've no idea what it means to be a woman because you're not one. This sounds a lot like a "the grass is always greener on the other side" kind of deal.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

This is not about what you personally do, but what trans identified people in general do.

I’m far from a unique case. Plenty of partnered or otherwise not looking people are asking the question so it’s not about just getting dates.

How would I not know what I would choose? Given the option I certainly wouldn’t be a trans women. But it’s not a choice and that’s my entire point.

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I’m far from a unique case. Plenty of partnered or otherwise not looking people are asking the question so it’s not about just getting dates.

You're right. It's not only about dates. It's also about "validation" and punishing disenting women, too. Even so, a good deal it's about dates.

How would I not know what I would choose? Given the option I certainly wouldn’t be a trans women. But it’s not a choice and that’s my entire point.

Yes, you've made perfectly clear what you don0't want to be. I meant you cannot know that you want to be a woman because you don't know what it is to live as a woman because you're not one. And you anything that women tell you about our experiences that may contradict your views.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (89 children)

Don’t you think there’s a bit of a difference between disliking trains and being asked to analyse ones own sexuality for the comfort of another?

Why does a persons sexuality require their analysis over who it excludes?

Is homosexuality really just a preference? That implies that it can be changed or that it is a choice one makes.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (88 children)

Because it may be indicative of bigotry. Not is. May be. So if you care that you may have bigoted beliefs (ie that trans women are men) that it may be worth analyzing those beliefs. Maybe they are maybe you just don’t like them. If you want to know you can examine that.

Here’s an analogous example. I’m attracted to men but would never be in a relationship with one or spend the night with one. (As opposed to just a hookup and leaving). This isn’t because I’m not attracted to them but because I don’t trust men enough to sleep next to one. Hence the fact I wouldn’t date a man is based on my beliefs about men rather than attraction. I’m also not acting to change that. That same analysis can be applied to other attractions and doesn’t need to come with a demand for change.

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (31 children)

you may have bigoted beliefs (ie that trans women are men) that it may be worth analyzing those beliefs. M

So it's bigoted to know/believe that Caitlyn Jenner is male who "lived as a man" for 65 years, and a highly privileged white man at that, before declaring a new identity as a trans woman? Are the six children sired by Jenner's sperm bigots for believing Jenner is not only a man, but their father?

It's bigoted to believe that Rachel Levine, another father who began self-identifying as a woman at age 54, is a man? It's bigoted to think that Levine has some nerve when Levine recently bragged about being proud to be the "first female admiral" in US public health?

I'm a bigot then. And I've got plenty of company: https://youtu.be/QUxU7s19UXI

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (30 children)

So it's bigoted to know/believe that Caitlyn Jenner is male who "lived as a man" for 65 years, and a highly privileged white man at that, before declaring a new identity as a trans woman?

No.

Are the six children sired by Jenner's sperm bigots for believing Jenner is not only a man, but their father?

Yes.

It's bigoted to believe that Rachel Levine, another father who began self-identifying as a woman at age 54, is a man?

Also yes.

It's bigoted to think that Levine has some nerve when Levine recently bragged about being proud to be the "first female admiral" in US public health?

Depends on what you mean by “some nerve”.

I'm a bigot then

I know.

And I've got plenty of company:

Yeah a lot of people hate trans women. That’s basically what I’m always telling you all when you insist that we control the world with our endless resources and ability to control everyone and pretend that we aren’t marginalized.

[–]BiologyIsReal 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, the trans lobby is so powerless and marginalized. I don't know why anyone would think otherwise./s

Feminist professor Kathleen Stock QUITS University of Sussex - after 'bullying and harassment' campaign to oust her by students in trans rights row

But if you all think that not denying biology equals hate, then not matter how many political victories you achieve you all will never be satisfied because people will never really believe trans identified people are the opposite sex.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (28 children)

Are you a bigot because of what you say about men?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (27 children)

If you care about cis men, sure. But I don’t so make your own judgment.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (26 children)

So bigotry only happens if we care about the group we’re discussing?

A lesbian can be bigoted for saying a transwoman is not a woman so she won’t date the transwoman, but you saying a man is a filthy monster who only wants to punch faces isn’t bigoted?

Just trying to understand this very unbalanced idea of what bigotry is.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (25 children)

A lesbian can be bigoted for saying a transwoman is not a woman

This is the important part, the rest is immaterial.

Also I didn’t say I wasn’t a bigot against men. I said I didn’t care.

[–]Penultimate_Penance 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

If saying trans women are men is bigoted. Then saying god is not real is also bigoted. Then saying cats are not dogs is bigoted.

Also you keep using that word I do think it means what you think it means:

Bigoted: obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, in particular prejudiced against or antagonistic toward a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.

Non believer does not equal bigot. Atheists like myself who think all religions are make believe nonsense can get along just fine with religious folks we just agree to disagree and carry on with normal life. Gender atheists likewise can get along with transgenderists without believing in the gender ideology. People not believing what you believe is not oppression, it is not bigotry. No one owes you agreement or validation.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

Why should we care about men who say they are women, then?

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

The difference is that people like me do not give a damn if you decide to date men or not or why, because we understand that it' s none of our business if you do it or not: it' s your life, it' s your body, it' s your time. Your decision to not date men clearly comes from bigotry and misandry since you don' t trust them because they are men and you hate them because they are men. Wanna guess what I think on the matter? That it' s none of my business.

Your decision to date is your own and anyone who thinks it' s their responsibility to tell you to think it over is a noisy asshole to be generous.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

Your decision to not date men clearly comes from bigotry and misandry since you don' t trust them because they are men and you hate them because they are men.

That’s my point. It can be seen as a bigoted belief and I’m not changing it. That can be the answer from you too. If you examine and go “nope trans people are just gross” then that’s your answer but it’s still at least been analyzed.

Who you date isn’t my business. And let you don’t have to analyze anything. But if you want to know whether you are acting from bigoted underlying belief or not, that knowledge is going to come from reflection.

It’s not “change your behavior” it’s “hey that behavior may have some underlying problematic beliefs, you may want to examine that”. Those two statements aren’t the same thing.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

But nobody should tell you to do it, because it' s none of their business.

It' s invasive as fuck to have strangers telling you "you should rethink about the people you don' t want to fuck", especially if the people who tell you that are part of the category you are turning down.

These people are not telling anyone that they should rethink their decision to not date trans people out of goodness or desire to destroy bigotry, they are doing it because lesbians' s refusal means that they are told no more often than yes, and this leads to them not getting laid.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

These people are not telling anyone that they should rethink their decision to not date trans people out of goodness or desire to destroy bigotry, they are doing it because lesbians' s refusal means that they are told no more often than yes, and this leads to them not getting laid.

I don’t think that’s true at all. Hell a lot of those conversations are coming from trans women who won’t even date natal women.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

They are just doing it to normalize dating them and shaming people who don' t date them. Lesbians are just easier to harrass than straight men.

But once you establish that "convincing" people to rethink their sexual orientation is ok, then you can shame anyone into doing it. Of course some people are, thankfully, more stubborn than others.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

They are just doing it to normalize dating them and shaming people who don' t date them.

I don’t think that’s true. They are doing it to try to fight the beliefs that trans women are men and trans men are women. It’s not about getting dates.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

What is more bigoted?

Men are adult human males, what they do or how they present is not relevant to that.Women are adult human females. What they do or how they present is not relevant to that. 

   Or

Men are disgusting violent monsters incapable of self control or humanity and women are all amazing beautiful empathy who are good.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

The second you try to guilty trip people into fucking someone they don' t want to fuck, it' s definitely about dates and getting laid.

You can add whatever woke fluff you want to it, but the endgame is always getting orgasms.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (34 children)

So a persons inherent sexuality could be a bigoted belief?

I must disagree with saying it’s bigoted to care about sex when discussing sexuality. Bigotry is not anything that hurts your feelings.

Would you say it’s acceptable and fine for everyone to never question their sexuality and exclude whoever? Or should sexuality only be analysed if it’s called bigoted by the person excluded from it?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (33 children)

So a persons inherent sexuality could be a bigoted belief?

No, but their feelings could indicate the presence of a bigoted belief. As I said it’s possible to simply not be attracted to trans people without having a bigoted basis.

Would you say it’s acceptable and fine for everyone to never question their sexuality and exclude whoever?

Sure. You don’t have to do anything.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (32 children)

Then what’s the purpose of asking someone to question their sexuality?

They don’t have to, they don’t need to change it, but if questioned they should assess their inherent attractions for bigotry…just to know if their unchangeable attractions are bigoted or not?

Seems like inviting someone to question their sexuality is a very comfy cover for implying all sorts of homophobia like their sexuality being bigoted, without having to actually make any accusations, nearly avoiding any responsibility for the suggestion.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (31 children)

Then what’s the purpose of asking someone to question their sexuality?

To encourage them to understand their beliefs and motives.

just to know if their unchangeable attractions are bigoted or not

Again it’s not the attractions that are biggoted, but they can indicate underlying bigoted beliefs. The attractions aren’t the point.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

To encourage them to understand their beliefs and motives.

The belief and motive, in this case, is "anyone who was born with a penis is not someone I want to date".

They are not refusing to date males who identify as women because "ew, trans are gross!", they are refusing to date males regardless of their "identification" because they are not interested in dating males.

It' s not a belief or bigotry to recognize that males who identify as women are males anymore than it' s a belief or bigotry to know that a redhair who dyes their hair black is a redhead with dyed black hair.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

The belief and motive, in this case, is "anyone who was born with a penis is not someone I want to date".

You are assigning specific motives to hypothetical people, but fine let’s examine a hypothetical.

If they think “I don’t want to sleep with someone born with a penis” but also thinks “trans women are women” then that’s not even bigoted, which has been my whole point. You can not include trans women without have a bigoted base belief. What’s hard to understand about that?

As to the rest we are males, just not men.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

As to the rest we are males, just not men.

Which is why I used "males", because I know how much you like your semantic games.

Homosexuality is about sex, male/female. Lesbians are homosexual females, which means that they do not want to date males. So whether they think males who identify as women are women or not is completely irrelevant, because the issue is not their identity or their womanhood, it' s their sex.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

The attractions are exactly the point.

So she’s a bigot because she doesn’t believe the transwoman is a woman?
Her sexuality automatically excludes any and all males and this doesn’t make her a bigot, just the underlying belief that men are men?

So homosexuality is bigoted, basically?

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

You are just ignoring me now.

The attraction isn’t bigoted. Homosexuality isn’t bigoted. The idea that trans women are men is.

Noone is saying that you have to date trans women or that you need to be attracted to all women. Just that thinking trans women are men is a transphobic belief.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

So a lesbian rejecting a transwoman because the transwoman has a penis and male features is not bigotry, and a lesbian rejecting a transwoman because she says the transwoman is a man is a bigot?

What’s the difference exactly? Semantics aside it’s the same thing.

[–]worried19 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I think we might both agree that trans women are not "social men," but they are still biologically male, and in the vast majority of cases, it's possible to tell that just by looking at them.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think I would agree with that statement. Some trans people pass but I would wager most don’t.