All: "Trans women" at the Olympics

submitted by BiologyIsReal from self.GCdebatesQT

The delayed Tokyo 2020 are the first Olympic Games were the 2015 IOC guidelines (1) about transgender "inclusion" were implemented (there were no enough time to be implemented for Rio de Janeiro 2016). Under said guidelines, trans identified males with testosterone levels under 10 nanomols per litre for a year are allowed to compete in the women's categories. For reference, testosterone levels for healthy young men (18 to 40 years) go from 7.7 nmol/L to 29.4 nmol/L, and for healthy menstruating women under 40 years, the 95% (two-sided) from 0 to 1.7 nmol/L. Even women with hormonal disorders like PCOS have testosterone levels under 5 nmol/l (2). It must also be mentioned that trans identified males were allowed to compete in the female since 2003, but under the previous guidelines they were required to undergone full genital surgeries, legal "sex change", plus 2 years taking hormones, all of which explains why there were none previous to these games (3).

And of course, they could always compete with the men. It's a lie that trans identified males are being asked to be excluded from sports.

Yesterday, Laurel Hubbard, who has been in the focus of sport "inclusive" policies these last weeks, competed in the weightlifting event for women's +87 kg and was disqualified for failing his 3 attempts (4). In the previous days, the IOC has admitted the current transgender guidelines were not fit for purpose and new ones will be announced in the incoming months (5)

For QT, the fact that Hubbard lost is being used as proof that trans identified males have not an unfair advantage over women and GC were panicking for nothing. Meanwhile, on the GC side there is speculation that Hubbard threw out the game for the purpose of creating the illusion that there is not an unfair advantage.

I think whether Hubbard lost on purpose or not is beside the point, just the fact he could compete in the Olympics at all show his male advantage. With 43 years of age, he was by far the oldest athlete in the event. The second oldest was 33 years old, and all the other athletes were in their 20s. Let's not forget also that Hubbard have quitted the sport for over a decade and only retook it after "transition". He is a huge outlier at the Olympics and not only for his "trans identity".

Edit: replaced The Guardian's article with IOC document on the 2003 consensus on "sex reassignment.

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[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Hubbard is age 43, white, millionaire. Because of him - 20 years old indigenous woman from poor family lost her chance to compete on Olympics, lost her scholarship and maybe chances in life. She was told that either she drops 15-20 kg and performs in "under 87 kg" category, or she will have no chances. So she dropped the sports alltogether.

At least one life was ruined by Hubbard, one life of poor female of color by white male millionaire. Even without taking medal - negative effect is already there.

Where else it is seen when 43 years old athlete, after injury and 5 years after retirement is competing against athletes in their best athletic form and has a chances to get 2-4th spot on Olympics among the best?

Carl Lewis five years ago was running, and was running around same time as best female athletes, at age 55. Should he compete against best women too, as he is now "around their level"? Is it fair for mediocre men or best men to have "second chance" in women's category instead of women?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There was no good outcome for women as soon as Laurel was allowed to compete.

If he won, he robbed women of their victory because he has no place in their competition. His loss is now just another tool for people to bludgeon the false message of ~delicate little weakling transwoman couldn’t even lift as much as women do, ergo transwomen can have women’s spaces for protection of their fragile little bones.

Nothing but a loss for women was gonna come out of this because nobody wants the consequences of acknowledging that a shitty male athlete doesn’t have a right to compete with women.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I guess I just don’t get why I’m supposed to care if a male has an advantage or not. So whether or not he threw the game is irrelevant to me (though it would be super shitty if this were true. Not the least bit surprising, just shitty).

He shouldn’t be competing against or alongside females. Period. Every time a TW competes in a female sport, he takes (at minimum) an opportunity from a female. That’s not fair. That’s not right. That’s not (really) “woke”. That’s not equality. Nevermind the fact that if he wins he takes a win, a scholarship, a medal, an endorsement etc away from a female. Just him being there to begin with is unfair right out the gate.

It shouldn’t matter if he transitioned as a child or two years ago or fully transitioned or his hormone levels are comparable to females etc- none of that matters. Female sports exist for females to be able to play sports. This is why I always say TW have the most male privilege. It’s ridiculous that anyone even considered letting them play in female sports, except how it’s not ridiculous because they’re males and they wanted to play in female sports

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Agreed. The categories are sex based, if you' re male, you shouldn' t compete, regardless of identification, advantage, transition, testosterone or whatever the fuck else is going to be used tomorrow to "prove" that men can be women if they whine hard enough.

It' s just beyond gross: women had to fight to get to the point of being able to compete in official sport events as they were barred from doing it. And they were barred because they were female, not because of their presentation, clothes, pronouns or identity.

As for the advantage, I don' t see why there should be such disparity in rules between women and trans women if they belong to the same category. Women don' t have different rules when it comes to, say, testosterone, the only "women" who need more elasticity are the ones who aren' t women at all. Why is it that trans women (and people like Caster Semenya) need more elastic rules to compete as a standard? Could it be that their bodies are different from women' s? Because if that' s the case, they are different enough to warrant a completely different division.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

They can't get their own rules straight. Males who feel like "women" can compete in the female categories. But there were also two female athlets who claim to be "non-binary" and yet, unsurpringly, chose to compete in the female categories too. And TRA didn't see any contradiction on this and only policed people who "misgendered" those women.

[–]adungitit 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Reminds me of all the "non-binaries" who still stick to female spaces for protection. Also I've seen tons of female trans people get angry at "transphobes" when they get disregarded as women which is just ???

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I still think the situation will become too noticeable and sports rules will ban transwomen. I think that's just tough and trans people have to accept that.

[–]questioningtw 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Count me in as another he had no right being in the Olympics competing with women. He made the whole event about himself, and took away from the actual women who were competing. I was so glad that the winners said no comment when asked about him. I am tired of men being allowed to have their sports, while women are expected to deal with both women that want to play women's sports; but want to be non women. And with TIMS demanding the right to play with women, instead of men.

[–]FlanJam 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Since Hubbard lost it'll probably fly under the radar and nothing will happen. The general public needs to open their eyes for there to be any real push back.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, that is why people have been calling Hubbar losing on purpose for a while.

[–]divingrightintowork 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

And of course everyone can name Hubbard, but few folks can name the respective medalists, or those Hubbard stopped from going.... so in the end, Hubbard still wins.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Its more evidence we can’t compete with men but my stance has always been trans women can’t really be in sports at all so nothing changes.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

How is any of this evidence that you can't compete with men? Hubbard was not good enough for the Olympics in his youth, way before his "transition". Obviously, at 43 years of age and after an injury and coming back from retirement, there is no chance he could qualify for the Olympics men's events, let alone beat fellow male athletes there.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

”a post-competition study of 693 elite athletes by Healy et al., published in 2014, found significant differences along many variables. The authors found that:

16.5% of men had low testosterone levels, whereas 13.7% of women had high levels with complete overlap between the sexes.[35]

Source:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_verification_in_sports

“Using the log-transformed data to predict a ‘normal range’ for elite female athletes, it would extend from 0.4 to 7.7 nmol/l. There were still eleven female athletes with testosterone levels above 8 nmol/l, three of which had values between 25 and 35 nmol/l, at the upper limit of the normal male range. All but one of these eleven women had normal LH & FSH which would be against but not exclude the likelihood of exogenous testosterone use, and it seems quite possible that one or more of them had the androgen insensitivity syndrome (AIS). The other women with intermediately raised testosterone levels may well have had the polycystic ovary syndrome or a more rare form of hyperandrogenism.”

Source:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/260522903_Endocrine_Profiles_in_693_Elite_Athletes_in_the_Post-Competition_Setting

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

And how many of those women with high testosterone levels are really males with a 46, XY DSD?

Anyway, I don't draw the line on testosterone levels. I draw it at sex. It's the IOC and other sporting organiztions who are trying to justify the presence of males on women's sports through testosterone levels, which is why I talked about them.

So, can you explain to me how Hubbard reached the peak of his sporting carreer (i.e. debuting at the Olympics) at 43 years of age and with a long period of time where he was retired on the middled?