Rape by deception and “Passing”

submitted by HeimdeklediROAR from (self.GCdebatesQT)

Okay so the argument that trans people not disclosing their trans status is rape by deception rests on the viewpoint that not disclosing any facts to a sexual partner that could cause them to not want to have sex with someone is rape by deception. My question concerns the movie “Passing” wherein a woman named Clare conceals her racial background from her racist white husband because she (correctly) fears his reaction to learning this information and thinks he’d leave her. My question is whether Clare’s behavior in regards to her having sex with said racist husband would also be considered rape by deception using the aforementioned logic of not disclosing potentially sexually disqualifying information to her sexual partner?

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[–]loveSloaneDebate King 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

No one is owed sex. Period. She was wrong to conceal her race from her partner.

You’ve tried this gotcha several times. The desire you have to justify or find a way around acknowledging that stealthing is rape is very disconcerting.

However, I’m willing to bet every cent I have that any heterosexual man who got misled into sleeping with a woman of a race he didn’t know she was would be a thousand times more upset and feel a thousand times more violated if he found out he had been misled into sleeping with an actual man.

ETA

My question is whether Clare’s behavior in regards to her having sex with said racist husband would also be considered rape by deception using the aforementioned logic of not disclosing potentially sexually disqualifying information to her sexual partner?

My question is why would it be okay for ANYONE to not disclose potentially sexually disqualifying information from a (hopefully just potential) sexual partner?

[–]HeimdeklediROAR[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You say it’s wrong. Does that mean you consider it rape by deception?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I answered that already in another comment. Either way, it’s clear you’re still desperate to justify allowing tw to rape people.

[–]MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

This seems like another lame attempt to conflate race with sex. Also, it's an attempt to conflate engaging in an act of sex involving deception with getting married. Finally, it's an attempt to make it seem like not disclosing any info about yourself or your family to someone you marry is the same as rape by deception, which has a very narrow meaning in law and has only been applied in a few cases.

When having sex with another person, information pertaining to sex is relevant: such as what sex you are; what your sexual orientation is; whether you are married, engaged, cohabitating or currently involved sexually with anyone else, and what the rules of your relationship are when it comes to having sex with others; whether you have or might have a sexually-transmitted infection; if you're HIV poz, if you've been taking your meds and your viral load is low; issues relating to contraception such as if a woman is on hormonal BC, whether a man has had a vasectomy, where a woman is in her cycle; whether you have any sexual problems or quirks that a partner might want to know about ahead of time or you might feel better about revealing beforehand (vaginismus, a genital deformity, a micro-penis, inability to orgasm); information about your past and other sexual relationships that might be relevant (if you and the potential partner had a mutual lover in the past might be relevant, and I think people would be duty-bound to let potential sex partners know that you just broke up with a crazy jealous BF with a history of violence who has promised to kill the next person you have sex with in the future).

But someone's "racial background"? Or ethnicity? - No.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Sounds like rape apology to me.

[–]BiologyIsReal 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

How...?

[–]HeimdeklediROAR[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It doesn't really. I'm pointing out the double standard

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Nobody has a sexuality that is based on race. False equivalence.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Her husband in the movie pretty clearly did.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Oh well that’s valid since movies are how the world works. 🙄

A racist being racist is not a sexual orientation.

[–]BiologyIsReal 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Why would Clare want to marry someone who hates her?

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

She was wrong in concealing because if it' s such a strong dealbreak (like sex is), then you have no excuses to intentionally lie. You are not giving the other person the information they need to give legitimate consent.

I haven' t seen the movie and have no clue about how it goes or her justifications for doing it, but why would she stay with someone who is so disgusted by her? Why would she care staying with him and be afraid that he might leave? Why would she want to have sex with him knowing what he thinks of her?

That said, I don' t think race and sex are the same when it comes to sexual intercourse: it' s still wrong, but you have sex with someone' s body and genitals, not with someone' s concentration of melanin.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Presumably she stays because she loves him, wants the financial security, or both.

You say it’s not the same, but in what way does it not fulfill the given criteria for rape by deception?

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I didn' t say it doesn' t fulfill the criteria, in fact I said pretty much the opposite when I said:

She was wrong in concealing because if it' s such a strong dealbreak (like sex is), then you have no excuses to intentionally lie. You are not giving the other person the information they need to give legitimate consent.

If you want something that might be considered a reason for why this doesn' t fulfill the criteria, then I guess

you have sex with someone' s body and genitals, not with someone' s concentration of melanin

could be considered one, even if I don' t necessarily think it is a justification.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Also- do tell us how Passing ends? What happens to Claire and her husband?

Doesn’t her husband just accept that she’s black and they go on to live happily ever after because her concealing such a huge fact isn’t a big deal? No??? That’s not what happens? Huh…

[–]HeimdeklediROAR[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

I don’t give spoilers

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don’t need you to. I’ve both read the book and seen the movie.

SPOILER ALERT:

He angrily rejects her and lunges for her to harm her before she falls or is pushed to her death. Her death is left to interpretation, but his reaction is certainly clear.

[–]FlanJam 8 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

bruh, you can't be for real 😂

[–]HeimdeklediROAR[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I am

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

If you won’t discuss it, you’re obviously not here to talk about the topic on good faith.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Disagree.

[–]BiologyIsReal 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Then, why did you choose to base your arguments in a movie?

[–]HeimdeklediROAR[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Because knowledge of the entire movie is not necessary for discussing the relevant concepts

[–]SnowAssMan 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Women can't rape men.

It's not like transbians are stealthily passing when they guilt-trip lesbians into sleeping with them. If you're talking about a hypothetical situation that perfectly mirrors the racial one you outlined, no such situation exists, & is not what is being referred to regarding straight male coercive rape of lesbians.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Of course they can. Forcing people to have sex with coercion, forcing people to penetrate against their will and penetrating orifices with objects definitely count as rape.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I’m deeply uncormtable with the idea that this would be called rape. Essentially anything could be “potentially disqualifying” so it opens the door to calling anyone who didn’t write an autobiography for a potential partner a rapist.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

What would you call it? I’m not saying I disagree fully, I’m just curious what you think this is? I think it fits the idea of rape by deception. She actively withheld information she knew would impact their relationship and she went to great lengths to conceal her race. He never had the chance to consent to being with who she really was. If it’s not rape by deception, is it fraud? Just wondering what else this could be considered.

I can’t find the words to articulate, but even though I think the character is in the wrong, I don’t think it’s at all comparable to not disclosing your sex.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Is it really writing an autobiography to say two words? Seems like it’s dishonest to frame disclosing one’s sex as similar to telling one’s entire life story.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Careful, don’t want to be a rape apologist.

[–]OffAndSpherehere from roblox lol 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I am just going to say that I got one person to agree to someone disclosing racial backgrounds and biological sex before having sex. That same person also didn't care about someone finding a "barely legal" partner.

For me, there is a rule that I think is a good idea: "ask or disclose". If the majority of people in the world would not have sex with a transgender person, Person 1 must disclose to Person 2 that they are transgender. If it is a minority instead, Person 2 must ask Person 1 if they are transgender. Repeat for other characteristics. This doesn't necessarily have to be set at 50%—it could also be 30% or 70%.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I would disagree. Just as in “Passing” the feelings of bigots on this matter are of no importance and so their “vote” doesn’t count. They must always be the one to ask