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[–]NastyWetSmear 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

The point is, Minimum, Medium and Maximum already exist, and you knew that, and you know it's not really answering my point - You can't expect them to continue to create more and more niche prisons to accommodate all varieties of people, nor should they be mixing the population at the whim of the convict.

As for Scott there, yeah, if she's a woman, women's prison. Nothing stops any woman in a woman's prison from bulking up, pumping iron and doing whatever steroids and hormones Sarah there does as well, meaning that unless, again, you want to start having weight divisions and height sections and a prison for people born with broader shoulders and a prison for people born with thinner shoulders, you have to accept the basics - Big people in prison will pick on little people, but a woman, no matter what she calls herself and what drugs she took at what age, is a woman. If "The Mountain" from Game of Thrones got caught robbing from a charity box, would you demand a prison just for him because he's bigger than all the men in the men's prison, so it isn't "Fair"?

Again, the best way to avoid meeting a "Scott" seems to be not to be a criminal.

At the very least, Scottina there won't be impregnating the people she rapes.

[–]Hematomato 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Again, the best way to avoid meeting a "Scott" seems to be not to be a criminal.

It's almost as though you want to make prison conditions worse.

There are plenty of people in prison for reasons like "They hurt their back, and they got addicted to their Percocet prescription, and when it ran out they couldn't handle the withdrawals so they switched to heroin, and they got caught with some."

And now you're like: well, do the crime, get raped a lot. The prisons should prioritize picking a side in the culture wars over preventing that.

[–]NastyWetSmear 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I think it's very telling of where our conversation is going that you've been reduced to that argument. It takes some very desperate reimagining to look at the things I've said and try and summarise my point in that way.

But I'll cut you some slack on that and say, instead, that it was a good conversation before this point. We don't agree, but that's okay. In theory, that's why there are elections, so that many points of view can be put forward and people can vote for the ones they agree with the closest, putting them in practice.

[–]Hematomato 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Well, that's where the conversation goes when you don't even try to justify putting Scott Percy in a women's prison. The only two identifiable arguments you make are "You can't give everyone their own prison" and "Theoretically some cis woman could get steroids on the inside."

And it's like - so what? How are either of those sane or rational arguments for putting Scott Percy in a cell with a tiny woman, who quite possibly did nothing worse than get addicted to an opiate?

[–]NastyWetSmear 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Awww, there, see? You can be less reliant on reductio ad absurdum... Slightly... Pretty straight forward, you just summed them up nicely:

You can't continuously create new criteria that don't fit the current criteria and generate a need for more and more individual prison environments. It's an endless task that can really only lead to financial ruin as you attempt to categorize everyone more and more until you require dozens and dozens of different types of prison facilities simply to house the current load of prisoners.

Yes, any woman can bulk up. Your concern over "Scott" is that she's too manly, but the only thing about her that is manly is how big she is and her beard. Assuming you aren't concerned over her beard, your concern is that she's too strong for the other prisoners - If that's the case, you are essentially creating Weight Classes of prisoners, because any woman can work out and become stronger than the other women, at which stage they also meet your criteria. You can't draw a line in the sand and say: "She's the second strongest woman in the women's prison, but she thinks she's a man, so we sent her to the men's prison. Meanwhile, the stronger woman continues to beat, murder and rape her fellow inmates because she never said she was a man."

As I said much earlier, but you chose to forget in order to put that ludicrous and disingenuous post down you made earlier:

at the end of the day the problem that needs to be addressed is the violence and sexual assault taking place in prison

As for your point about "Joining the culture war", choosing to start allowing men and women to swap prisons is joining the culture war. That wasn't something that ever happened before, but because of the culture war, it's happening now. My stance is the opposite - not caving into the pressure to join the culture war - maintaining the current rules for prisoners: Men in the men's prison, women in the women's prison.

So, yes, larger people will always pick on smaller people. The fact that they claim to be the opposite gender isn't relevant to that discussion. Moving a population that is naturally born stronger across to the prison of the opposite gender knowing that prisoners are so desperate for sexual activity that they will perform gay acts then claim to be straight, many of whom are already violent and can not only sexually interfere with their cell mates but, on average, can overpower and impregnate them isn't a great choice, especially when it's numerical fact that, given the number of people in society who are trans and the number of prisoners who want to join the opposite gender prison, many of them are faking it to escape issues in their current holdings or to inflict misery, violence and rape on people who are naturally smaller and weaker than them isn't a good move, isn't helping anything or anyone and is performative at best. In the absolute least favourable interpretation - criminals are the last people who should be getting such leniency.

I'm going to leave it there. I'm not going to change your mind, and I doubt you're on the Californian Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, so I don't see this going much deeper than an interesting conversation that went a little sour. Again: If being in prison is an issue, don't do the crimes. "I really wanted pain killers so I took heroin" isn't really tugging at my heart strings. The prison system needs to try and resolve internal violence and sexual assault, and if you think people being hooked on pain killers and turning to hard drugs is a common story, it sounds like your medical system needs a review as well.

[–]Hematomato 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Awww, there, see? You can be less reliant on reductio ad absurdum... Slightly...

Now if only we could find some way to break your reliance on condescension and sanctimony...

You can't continuously create new criteria that don't fit the current criteria and generate a need for more and more individual prison environments. It's an endless task that can really only lead to financial ruin as you attempt to categorize everyone more and more until you require dozens and dozens of different types of prison facilities simply to house the current load of prisoners.

That's correct. You can't create a prison for each prisoner. But you also aren't limited to two kinds of prisons. Or six kinds of prisons. And you aren't required to categorize whatever prisons you do build by "people with penises" or "people with vaginas." That isn't some kind of rule, let alone natural law.

You're suggesting a really silly false dichotomy: that either we categorize people chromosomally, or we build 1.2 million prisons. There are obviously other options - options as simple as "Let's make decisions on a case-by-case basis; everyone will be safer if Scott Percy is housed in a medium-security men's prison."

choosing to start allowing men and women to swap prisons is joining the culture war.

Any categorical answer is joining the culture war. "Anyone who identifies as a woman must go to a women's prison" is the answer of a culture warrior. "Prisons must be segregated by chromosomes" is the answer of a culture warrior. Neither leads to optimal outcomes. Both are based on nothing but ideology.

Again: If being in prison is an issue, don't do the crimes. "I really wanted pain killers so I took heroin" isn't really tugging at my heart strings.

There are innumerable reasons that people are in prison. Some of them because addicted to drugs. Some of them are mentally ill from birth. Some of them snapped and did something violent under very understandable circumstances. Some of them are protecting others. Some of them were with the wrong person at the wrong time and got lumped into the same prosecution. Some of them are flat-out completely innocent of what they were convicted of.

Let me just ask you this: when Derek Chauvin nearly got stabbed to death, did you say "Good, the motherfucker shouldn't have done the crime if he didn't want to face the consequences"? Or is it possible that the BOP failed to take the appropriate steps to keep him safe?

[–]NastyWetSmear 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Like I said, I'll leave it there. Otherwise it's endless. Yes, I was condescending, it was in response to your earlier post... But that was petty, sorry.

[–]Hematomato 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well, until the next one, then, I suppose. Cheers.