ChatAI was asked how long it would take to cremate 6 million bodies if you could cremate 300 at a time. The answer may or may not surprise you

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[–]weavilsatemyface 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I've heard the figure "6 million" given for the number of Jewish deaths attributed to Hitler/WWII, but I have never heard that all of them were gassed or even cremated.

That's because they weren't all gassed or cremated. Roughly:

  • 32% died of famine and disease
  • 19% by gassing
  • 16% by forced labour
  • 15% by shooting
  • and the remaining 18% by other means (e.g. beatings, execution by hanging, medical experiments) or unknown.

The famine and disease deaths are counted as Holocaust victims because they happened under the direct responsibility of the Nazis, and not incidental and accidental consequences of war. The disease and starvation was not "a mere consequence of war, bad things happening everywhere, we tried our best but they still died", they were deliberate, malicious neglect and intentional Nazi policy to let disease and famine kill them to save on bullets.

I do, however, believe that the number (and the reduced number possibly as well) was exaggerated, as they have already downsized the numbers of dead at various camps.

Sure, some estimates were high, but some were low and had to be increased.

Obviously the Nazis didn't keep a list of everyone they murdered, and those lists which they did keep, they tried very hard to destroy. Historians have had to piece together evidence from many different places, and different people come up with different estimates. Some are higher than others, some are more reliable than others, and the low estimates are not necessarily the best.

All the figures have to be taken as round number estimates, and different people have made different estimates. Some of the early estimates in the 1940s were way off, especially from the Soviets. But the modern estimates are the result of a lot of careful research by many hundreds of people. They're not exact numbers, but they're pretty good given the evidence we have.

Besides, does it really matter if it were only 5 million murdered instead of 6? I guess the Nazis weren't so bad after all! /s

However, a lot of the deaths can be attributed to disease and other forms of execution and throughout history, mass graves have been used to quickly dispose of bodies.

As I said above, those who died of disease were as much victims of murder as those who were shot or gassed. The deliberate use of disease and hunger to kill is still murder. Around the world, another 19-28 million people died of disease and hunger due to WW2, but they don't get counted as Holocaust victims because they weren't deliberate.

All up, around 17 million people were murdered by the Nazis, out of a total death toll in WW2 of 70-85 million. That includes:

  • About 5.7 million European Jews were killed in the concentration camps, or by mobile death squads in the Soviet Union.
  • Another few hundred thousand died in the Warsaw Ghetto. So that's around 6 million, in round numbers.
  • Around 9 or 10 million citizens of the Soviet Union were murdered. That includes about 1.3 million Jews, plus 3 million POWs.
  • Another 2 or 3 million non-Jewish Poles were murdered in the camps.
  • "Only" half a million Gypsies (Roma) were murdered, which proportionally is probably higher than the number of Jews murdered.

[–]JewsAreOfColor 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

There were more than 6 million Jews killed at the hands of national Socialism. And national Socialism is Socialism. Their alliance with Stalin proves it. Stalinism is true communism and your “no true Scotsman“ fallacies are not going to cut it this time, degenerate.

[–]weavilsatemyface 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

And national Socialism is Socialism.

Like the Bible, you can find something in Hitler's words to support pretty much everything, including contradictions. The Nazis were a mixed capitalist economy, but mostly to the right wing economically. Having said that, Hitler was a totalitarian with a mystical view of the State, with him as the embodiment of the State, so it is possible to find Hitler making statements which sound superficially "socialist".

But talk is cheap, and we should look at what the Nazis actually did, not what Hitler (who frequently contradicted himself) said he wanted to do. Let's compare Germany under the Nazis to the USSR:

The Nazis:

  • privatised state-owned industries
  • did deals with major corporations and cartels
  • had an aggressively pro-private corporation economic policy
  • privatised or shut down government social programs
  • suppressed the union movement
  • gave subsidies to private enterprise
  • did deals with literally hundreds of companies
  • respected the rule of private contracts between so-called "Aryans"
  • encouraged private ownership of the means of production.

The USSR had:

  • 100% state ownership of the means of production
  • no corporations
  • no private industry
  • no unions (Stalin distrusted them)

Both countries hated unions, that is a characteristic of all totalitarian and authoritarian governments, they hate anything that gives ordinary people power. But apart from that, there is no comparison between the two. Time and time again, Hitler's economic actions supported right-wing capitalism; Stalin was always communist. Of course both were totalitarian, but there the similarity ends.

Under the Soviets, all private corporations were banned and nationalised. Under the Nazis, the list of companies that thrived includes Thyssen, Krupp, IG Farben, Bosch, Blaupunkt, Daimler-Benz, Demag, Henschel, Messerschmitt, Siemens, and Volkswagen.

The Soviets nationalised everything; the Nazis nationalised virtually nothing. (The only exception I can find is Junkers, but even then, they paid full compensation to the owners.) The Soviets made everything a state-owned enterprise; the Nazis privatised nearly all state-owned enterprises, and created very few new ones. (Again, I can only find one exception: the iron ore enterprise Reichswerke Hermann Goring.)

When the Nazis took power, they went on an orgy of privatisation, far more than the other economically capitalist countries of Europe. They privatised social services to companies they could trust to enforce their racial policies, such as Die Deutsche Arbeitsfront (German Labor Front) and Nationalsozialistiche Volkswohlfahrt (National Socialist People’s Welfare Organization – NSV). They privatised state-owned banks, shipping companies, ship builders, utility companies etc, including what was at the time the largest public enterprise in the world, the Deutsche Reichsbahn (German Railways). Very few state-run enterprises survived their push to privatisation.

Unlike the way they treated the Jews and countries they invaded, in Germany itself they generally respected contract law and private property belonging to corporations. No German company was forced under threat of violence to deal with the government, contract terms were negotiated, and companies were generally permitted to work towards their own goals. Even in industries with quotas where the military got priority, the Nazis gave corporations large quotas for general use. Company managers had autonomy and full control over what they did with their general quota.

Compare that to the USSR, where there were no companies, and managers worked for the state and had little or no autonomy.

The Nazis were not a laissez faire lib-right government. They were an interventionist government and a pro-capitalist fascist state: neither a totally free market nor a state-controlled economy, but one where the government put its thumb on the scales to the advantage of big corporations. Their war aims came first, of course, and everything was subservient to Hitler's plans, but after that the Nazis and Hitler himself were pro-business.

In 1932, the Nazi Party was effectively bankrupt until the capitalists came to their rescue wand bailed them out. When they came into power, Hitler was grateful and most Nazi economic interventions were on the side of big corporations:

  • they sold state assets
  • shut down small businesses in favour of big companies
  • forced medium sized companies into cartels
  • and provided millions of literal slave workers to the corporations. (By 1944, fully one quarter of all workers in Germany were slaves, but they were slaves working for private industry.)

The idea that the Nazis were socialists is nonsense on stilts. It is utter madness, that can only be believed by people who know nothing of how the Nazis ran Germany.

http://piketty.pse.ens.fr/files/capitalisback/CountryData/Germany/Other/Pre1950Series/RefsHistoricalGermanAccounts/BuchheimScherner06.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Nazi_Germany

Their alliance with Stalin proves it.

The UK and USA allied themselves with Stalin too. They must be communist! Everyone is communist!

But what about the name? They called themselves National Socialists. Doesn't that prove it? My friend, allow me to let you in to a little secret: politicians lie. Just because they use the name "Socialist" in their name doesn't mean they are socialist. Anyone can call themselves anything they like.

As far back as 1919, when a young corporal in the German Army was ordered by his army superiors to infiltrate the German Workers Party (DAP) which later became the National Socialist Party, the name was chosen to attract working class Germans, but without supporting far-left socialist economics. The party was always extremely nationalistic and antisemitic (two features which attracted Hitler) right from the beginning, with incoherent economic views that believed that poor, innocent capitalists were being led astray by "financiers" and communist Jews. In modern terms, we would call that a popularist, nationalist party with moderate centre-left economic leanings mostly concerned with worker welfare. Once Hitler took over, he rapidly moved the party to the authoritarian centre-right, but kept the name.

[–]JewsAreOfColor 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

So you just proved my point. National Socialism is Socialism.

[–]weavilsatemyface 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Me: "Here are fifty ways that National Socialism was right-wing pro-capitalist and the complete opposite of communism, and one thing that the Nazis and the Stalinists had in common."

You: "See, they're exactly the same!"

[–]JewsAreOfColor 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

All of those links were falsified. Every single one. National Socialism is Socialism. The Molotov Ribbentrop pact is proof of that. The fact that Hitler was willingly in an alliance with Stalin is proof that National Socialism is Socialism.

Weevils also ate your brain.

[–]weavilsatemyface 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

All of those links were falsified. Every single one.

Just crying "No no no, they were falsified!!!!1!" doesn't prove anything.

The fact that Hitler was willingly in an alliance with Stalin

Since we have many records from both the Nazis, captured after their arses were whipped in WW2, and from Soviet defectors, we know two things about that alliance:

  • Hitler's alliance with Stalin was a trap to fool the Soviets into a false sense of security before Operation Barbarossa;
  • it worked: Stalin was so taken in that when the Germans invaded, at first he refused to believe it.

is proof that National Socialism is Socialism.

The UK and the USA also had an alliance with Stalin, so I guess by your Big Brain Logic that must mean that the UK and USA are socialist too. "Yes Virginia, Winston Churchill was a dirty commie pinko socialist, just like those famous other commies, Hitler, Mussolini and Emperor Hirohito."

[–]JewsAreOfColor 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Considering the ungrateful limey honkies voted him out for Clement Attlee after the war…