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[–]weavilsatemyface 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

I've heard the figure "6 million" given for the number of Jewish deaths attributed to Hitler/WWII, but I have never heard that all of them were gassed or even cremated.

That's because they weren't all gassed or cremated. Roughly:

  • 32% died of famine and disease
  • 19% by gassing
  • 16% by forced labour
  • 15% by shooting
  • and the remaining 18% by other means (e.g. beatings, execution by hanging, medical experiments) or unknown.

The famine and disease deaths are counted as Holocaust victims because they happened under the direct responsibility of the Nazis, and not incidental and accidental consequences of war. The disease and starvation was not "a mere consequence of war, bad things happening everywhere, we tried our best but they still died", they were deliberate, malicious neglect and intentional Nazi policy to let disease and famine kill them to save on bullets.

I do, however, believe that the number (and the reduced number possibly as well) was exaggerated, as they have already downsized the numbers of dead at various camps.

Sure, some estimates were high, but some were low and had to be increased.

Obviously the Nazis didn't keep a list of everyone they murdered, and those lists which they did keep, they tried very hard to destroy. Historians have had to piece together evidence from many different places, and different people come up with different estimates. Some are higher than others, some are more reliable than others, and the low estimates are not necessarily the best.

All the figures have to be taken as round number estimates, and different people have made different estimates. Some of the early estimates in the 1940s were way off, especially from the Soviets. But the modern estimates are the result of a lot of careful research by many hundreds of people. They're not exact numbers, but they're pretty good given the evidence we have.

Besides, does it really matter if it were only 5 million murdered instead of 6? I guess the Nazis weren't so bad after all! /s

However, a lot of the deaths can be attributed to disease and other forms of execution and throughout history, mass graves have been used to quickly dispose of bodies.

As I said above, those who died of disease were as much victims of murder as those who were shot or gassed. The deliberate use of disease and hunger to kill is still murder. Around the world, another 19-28 million people died of disease and hunger due to WW2, but they don't get counted as Holocaust victims because they weren't deliberate.

All up, around 17 million people were murdered by the Nazis, out of a total death toll in WW2 of 70-85 million. That includes:

  • About 5.7 million European Jews were killed in the concentration camps, or by mobile death squads in the Soviet Union.
  • Another few hundred thousand died in the Warsaw Ghetto. So that's around 6 million, in round numbers.
  • Around 9 or 10 million citizens of the Soviet Union were murdered. That includes about 1.3 million Jews, plus 3 million POWs.
  • Another 2 or 3 million non-Jewish Poles were murdered in the camps.
  • "Only" half a million Gypsies (Roma) were murdered, which proportionally is probably higher than the number of Jews murdered.

[–]Notspendingmylife 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

What a crock of shit. How can anyone know even roughly to the percentage how many people died from what causes in the concentration camps (which we now are informational black boxes) when there is no camp documentation to the things you are describing!!!! There is 0 evidence and reason to believe any of your numbers, especially when it comes to the camps. According to German documents, 300k people of all ethnicities died in the whole German concentration camp system. These documents allege how many poeple died from what causes and what ethnicity they are. These are the only documents that exist. This is the only form of documentation you get about the camps. Any other breakdown of what death camps are caused by what cause are 100% baseless, worthless speculation. Do you even know how historians get to these kill numbers per 'death camp'? By DEPORTATION LISTS. They look at the train records, see how many people passed each camp and assume that a given percentage (big majority) simply gets gassed. There is no 'documentation' about any Holocaust whatsoever in the camps. These poeple simply assume that most people who were sent ther were simply murdered. The Nazis where the top dog bureucrats except when it came to the Holocaust/destroyed all the evidence, didn't you know?

'All the figures have to be taken as round number estimates, and different people have made different estimates. Some of the early estimates in the 1940s were way off, especially from the Soviets. But the modern estimates are the result of a lot of careful research by many hundreds of people. They're not exact numbers, but they're pretty good given the evidence we have.' Mate you propably would have believed that 4 Million people where murdered in Auschwitz alone back in the day when it was historical consensus (until 1990). Back in 1945/6 at Nuremberg, 4 Million at Auschwitz was the prevailing dogma with even Hoess testifying to 2.5 million during his control alone. And your last sentence says it all, hey the Historians seem pretty confident about their claims given the nonexistent evidence! Are the same masterminds that accepted 4 Million dead at Auschwitz for decades now finally waking up to give us the 'real truth' now?

[–]weavilsatemyface 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

How can anyone know even roughly to the percentage how many people died from what causes in the concentration camps

Just because you can't imagine how people work it out, doesn't mean that nobody can.

In one breath, you say it is impossible to know "even roughly" how many people died, and then in the very next breath you happily repeat bullshit claims that only "300k people" died.

  • You can't know how many people died!!! It's impossible!!!
  • I know how many people died, and here is the totally ludicrous and ridiculous number.

So okay, if only 300K people died, what happened to the millions of Soviet POWs? What happened to the people on the deportation lists? Maybe aliens stole them and took them to Uranus.

There is 0 evidence

Sure, if you ignore the literal mountains of evidence, like the documentation, eyewitnesses, survivors, confessions, physical evidence, burial pits, actual bodies, masses of ashes and bone fragments, aerial photos, records of deportations, widespread demographic changes across Europe, etc. Just scrunch your eyelids closed, stuff your fingers in your ears, and shout "there is no evidence, no evidence at all I tell you!!!"

Do you even know how historians get to these kill numbers

I do. You obviously don't. They don't rely solely on deportation lists, but even if they did, where are all those deported people if they weren't killed?

you propably would have believed that 4 Million people where murdered in Auschwitz alone back in the day when it was historical consensus (until 1990).

Maybe I would have, but probably not, because the "4 million at Auschwitz alone" figure came almost entirely from the Polish government, and has always been contradicted by estimates from other sources. But if I had accepted it, I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong, and update my beliefs when new and better sources of information come along. How about you?

There is much more evidence for the Holocaust than for the existence of Julius Caesar, or king Henry VIII, but I bet you don't deny their existence.

[–]Notspendingmylife 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Demographic changes are proof of death?Where is the proof? During WW2 millions of people were displaced, including Jews, a walking tribe of nothingness with no home country, and therefore no central register. Millions of Jews emigrated Europe shortly after the end of the war into the US and Palestine/Israel. Many stayed behind the Iron Curtain for decades. Perfect conditions for a world demogprahic analysis, right?

Millions of Jews(and other people) were sent to transit camps during the war? That must mean they were gassed. LOL. Is this all you have? Where are the 10 Million displaced Germans from Eastern Europe, were they all murdered, or flown to Uranus? (The Jews at least have a reason to survive). Maybe the people were sent further east? Where is your proof that the final destination were the camps when there are no train records from these camps?(Very much in the luck for Holocaust historians) Höss testified for 2.5 Million during his administration during the Nuremberg Trials, the pilars of the Holocaust . Why don't you believe his confession? I thought SS confessions are very reliable?

[–]weavilsatemyface 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Demographic changes are proof of death?

If, at the start of the war, there were (let's say) 80 thousand Swiss in Greece, and during the war 20 thousand of them emigrate to other countries, and then after the war it is found that there are only 10 thousand Swiss remaining, what happened to the other 50 thousand of them? The only logical conclusion is that the Swiss are the secret rulers of the world and deserved to be murdered, but they weren't actually murdered, they just disappeared off the trains into thin air half way to the death camps that actually weren't murder camps even though the people who made them called them murder camps and everything. Right?

Millions of Jews emigrated Europe shortly after the end of the war into the US and Palestine/Israel.

Exactly. We know how many Jews were in Europe before the war, because they were counted by their home countries. It was the 20th century, not 500 BCE, all European countries had bureaucracies to count their population, most countries in Europe demanded that people were registered at birth and had identity papers. After the war, we know how many survivors were left because they were counted again, especially those who migrated. What happened to the rest? Did they just disappear into smoke by spontaneous human combustion?

Yes, in the chaos of the war, some people would fall through the cracks and gain a stolen or fake identity, or just sneak out of the country. How many? A few hundred, maybe a few thousands? Even fifty thousand would be a mere 1% or so, and would make no difference to the big picture.

a walking tribe of nothingness with no home country

Jews in Europe were citizens of France, Germany, Austria, Greece, Poland, Russia etc. They were counted in censuses. They owned houses and had jobs or worked the land as permanent farm workers. They had homes and businesses which were stolen from them. They weren't migrant transient peoples like the Gypsies who never stayed in one place for long. That is why there were only a few Gypsies in Europe, and it is much, much harder to work out how many were killed. But the Jews were settled citizens who paid taxes and had identity papers.

As an ethnic group, they had no home country, like many other ethnic groups who have been brutalised by their more powerful neighbours. Ask the Kurds where their home country is. As a religion, they have no need for a home country: you can be a Jewish German just as you can be a Catholic German or a Protestant German or a Buddhist German or an atheist German.

Millions of Jews(and other people) were sent to transit camps during the war?

Transit camps to where? Uranus? That must be it: the Germans loaded them into giant rocket ships, and sent them to the Moon, where now there are tens of millions of people, descendants of the Slavs and Jews and Jehovahs Witnesses who weren't actually killed at all. What other possible explanation could there be, I mean just because the Nazi leadership talked about exterminating the Jews and Slavs, just because eye-witnesses saw them, and some camp guards confessed, and corpses found, and mobile killing vans captured, doesn't mean the Nazis actually did what they said they did.

Its all a big misunderstanding, the Nazis put the Jews on a train and sent them to Japan, where they happily converted to Buddhism and integrated with the Japanese.

Where are the 10 Million displaced Germans from Eastern Europe, were they all murdered

It was more like 12 million, maybe as many as 15 million. No, they weren't all murdered. We know where they ended up. There were three waves:

  • The organised evacuation of Germans by the Nazi government.
  • The disorganised fleeing of ethnic Germans following the Wehrmacht's defeat.
  • And the organised expulsion of Germans from Hungary, Poland and Czechoslovakia, agreed to by the Allies in the Potsdam Agreement.

At least half a million, maybe as many as two million, died during the flight and expulsion, from hunger, disease, and, yes, some of them murdered. The survivors ended up in Germany.

It is ironic that you don't believe demographic data when it comes to the Holocaust but you do believe it when it comes to the expulsion of the Germans. Hypocrisy is a terrible thing.

Höss testified for 2.5 Million during his administration during the Nuremberg Trials

He also testified that he wasn't sure how many people were killed, because the records had been destroyed to cover it up, and his figure of 2.5 million was just his best guess.

The problem with Holocaust denialists is that they think evidence is like a chain. If one single link in the chain is broken, no matter how small, the whole thing breaks apart. If somebody says they personally cut the throat of some Jew with a six inch carving knife on a Monday, but it turned out it was actually a five inch filleting knife on a Tuesday, that discrepancy is enough to prove that the Holocaust didn't happen according to the denialists.

But evidence is more like a rope, not a chain. If a thread breaks in a rope, it doesn't matter. Who cares if Höss was unable to remember the exact number of people he murdered? Whether it was 2.5 million or 1 million or just half a million barely matters in the big picture.

The CEO of Nike probably doesn't know how many pairs of running shoes the company made either, and would have to look it up, and if the records had been destroyed he'd have to guess too. I suppose that means that Nike doesn't actually make running shoes. Its all a big lie. Right?

Why don't you believe his confession? I thought SS confessions are very reliable?

No, confessions and eye-witness accounts are the least reliable form of evidence. Physical evidence, like tens of thousands of emaciated, starving survivors, mass graves, burn pits, mountains of ash spread over hundreds of acres of land, aerial photographs, etc are much more reliable. But even less reliable evidence is still evidence. Thousands of -people were eye-witnesses or confessed. Each one individually might be not be perfectly reliable, but some are more unreliable than others, and there is collaborating physical evidence. In total, historians can work out what's impossible, what's unlikely, what's plausible, and what's likely. That's what they do.

A crime was committed. The accused had means, motive and opportunity, and left a mountain of evidence behind despite trying to destroy it. There are witnesses, and confessions, and physical evidence. Where the evidence collaborates we can be more certain. Where the evidence contradicts, we can reject it as mistaken, or confused, or simply that in the chaos of real historical events not everything is cut and dried.

[–]Hoomsns 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I wouldn't mind holding you in a prison, starving you.

I would be sure to provide you with a cold room to sleep.

[–]JewsAreOfColor 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

There were more than 6 million Jews killed at the hands of national Socialism. And national Socialism is Socialism. Their alliance with Stalin proves it. Stalinism is true communism and your “no true Scotsman“ fallacies are not going to cut it this time, degenerate.

[–]weavilsatemyface 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

And national Socialism is Socialism.

Like the Bible, you can find something in Hitler's words to support pretty much everything, including contradictions. The Nazis were a mixed capitalist economy, but mostly to the right wing economically. Having said that, Hitler was a totalitarian with a mystical view of the State, with him as the embodiment of the State, so it is possible to find Hitler making statements which sound superficially "socialist".

But talk is cheap, and we should look at what the Nazis actually did, not what Hitler (who frequently contradicted himself) said he wanted to do. Let's compare Germany under the Nazis to the USSR:

The Nazis:

  • privatised state-owned industries
  • did deals with major corporations and cartels
  • had an aggressively pro-private corporation economic policy
  • privatised or shut down government social programs
  • suppressed the union movement
  • gave subsidies to private enterprise
  • did deals with literally hundreds of companies
  • respected the rule of private contracts between so-called "Aryans"
  • encouraged private ownership of the means of production.

The USSR had:

  • 100% state ownership of the means of production
  • no corporations
  • no private industry
  • no unions (Stalin distrusted them)

Both countries hated unions, that is a characteristic of all totalitarian and authoritarian governments, they hate anything that gives ordinary people power. But apart from that, there is no comparison between the two. Time and time again, Hitler's economic actions supported right-wing capitalism; Stalin was always communist. Of course both were totalitarian, but there the similarity ends.

Under the Soviets, all private corporations were banned and nationalised. Under the Nazis, the list of companies that thrived includes Thyssen, Krupp, IG Farben, Bosch, Blaupunkt, Daimler-Benz, Demag, Henschel, Messerschmitt, Siemens, and Volkswagen.

The Soviets nationalised everything; the Nazis nationalised virtually nothing. (The only exception I can find is Junkers, but even then, they paid full compensation to the owners.) The Soviets made everything a state-owned enterprise; the Nazis privatised nearly all state-owned enterprises, and created very few new ones. (Again, I can only find one exception: the iron ore enterprise Reichswerke Hermann Goring.)

When the Nazis took power, they went on an orgy of privatisation, far more than the other economically capitalist countries of Europe. They privatised social services to companies they could trust to enforce their racial policies, such as Die Deutsche Arbeitsfront (German Labor Front) and Nationalsozialistiche Volkswohlfahrt (National Socialist People’s Welfare Organization – NSV). They privatised state-owned banks, shipping companies, ship builders, utility companies etc, including what was at the time the largest public enterprise in the world, the Deutsche Reichsbahn (German Railways). Very few state-run enterprises survived their push to privatisation.

Unlike the way they treated the Jews and countries they invaded, in Germany itself they generally respected contract law and private property belonging to corporations. No German company was forced under threat of violence to deal with the government, contract terms were negotiated, and companies were generally permitted to work towards their own goals. Even in industries with quotas where the military got priority, the Nazis gave corporations large quotas for general use. Company managers had autonomy and full control over what they did with their general quota.

Compare that to the USSR, where there were no companies, and managers worked for the state and had little or no autonomy.

The Nazis were not a laissez faire lib-right government. They were an interventionist government and a pro-capitalist fascist state: neither a totally free market nor a state-controlled economy, but one where the government put its thumb on the scales to the advantage of big corporations. Their war aims came first, of course, and everything was subservient to Hitler's plans, but after that the Nazis and Hitler himself were pro-business.

In 1932, the Nazi Party was effectively bankrupt until the capitalists came to their rescue wand bailed them out. When they came into power, Hitler was grateful and most Nazi economic interventions were on the side of big corporations:

  • they sold state assets
  • shut down small businesses in favour of big companies
  • forced medium sized companies into cartels
  • and provided millions of literal slave workers to the corporations. (By 1944, fully one quarter of all workers in Germany were slaves, but they were slaves working for private industry.)

The idea that the Nazis were socialists is nonsense on stilts. It is utter madness, that can only be believed by people who know nothing of how the Nazis ran Germany.

Their alliance with Stalin proves it.

The UK and USA allied themselves with Stalin too. They must be communist! Everyone is communist!

But what about the name? They called themselves National Socialists. Doesn't that prove it? My friend, allow me to let you in to a little secret: politicians lie. Just because they use the name "Socialist" in their name doesn't mean they are socialist. Anyone can call themselves anything they like.

As far back as 1919, when a young corporal in the German Army was ordered by his army superiors to infiltrate the German Workers Party (DAP) which later became the National Socialist Party, the name was chosen to attract working class Germans, but without supporting far-left socialist economics. The party was always extremely nationalistic and antisemitic (two features which attracted Hitler) right from the beginning, with incoherent economic views that believed that poor, innocent capitalists were being led astray by "financiers" and communist Jews. In modern terms, we would call that a popularist, nationalist party with moderate centre-left economic leanings mostly concerned with worker welfare. Once Hitler took over, he rapidly moved the party to the authoritarian centre-right, but kept the name.

[–]JewsAreOfColor 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

So you just proved my point. National Socialism is Socialism.

[–]weavilsatemyface 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Me: "Here are fifty ways that National Socialism was right-wing pro-capitalist and the complete opposite of communism, and one thing that the Nazis and the Stalinists had in common."

You: "See, they're exactly the same!"

[–]JewsAreOfColor 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

All of those links were falsified. Every single one. National Socialism is Socialism. The Molotov Ribbentrop pact is proof of that. The fact that Hitler was willingly in an alliance with Stalin is proof that National Socialism is Socialism.

Weevils also ate your brain.

[–]weavilsatemyface 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

All of those links were falsified. Every single one.

Just crying "No no no, they were falsified!!!!1!" doesn't prove anything.

The fact that Hitler was willingly in an alliance with Stalin

Since we have many records from both the Nazis, captured after their arses were whipped in WW2, and from Soviet defectors, we know two things about that alliance:

  • Hitler's alliance with Stalin was a trap to fool the Soviets into a false sense of security before Operation Barbarossa;
  • it worked: Stalin was so taken in that when the Germans invaded, at first he refused to believe it.

is proof that National Socialism is Socialism.

The UK and the USA also had an alliance with Stalin, so I guess by your Big Brain Logic that must mean that the UK and USA are socialist too. "Yes Virginia, Winston Churchill was a dirty commie pinko socialist, just like those famous other commies, Hitler, Mussolini and Emperor Hirohito."

[–]JewsAreOfColor 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Considering the ungrateful limey honkies voted him out for Clement Attlee after the war…