all 64 comments

[–][deleted] 12 insightful - 3 fun12 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 3 fun -  (4 children)

The entire German occupied territories did not have 6 million Jews living among them, not to mention the survivors

[–]Oyveygoyim[S] 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

https://files.catbox.moe/o0pgat.jpeg

They sure love exaggerating numbers , don't they?

[–]jet199Instigatrix 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes they did. 3 million lived in Poland alone.

[–]ShadowMoon13 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There's surely been some manipulation when it comes to the figures...

[–]LynchTheGroomers 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Chat bot about to get cancelled lul. I asked the nigga if homosexual sex is more dangerous than straight sex. It told me "homosexual intercourse is not inherently dangerous" then I showed it a research paper and it told me "okay yes there are some blah blah" then it came back saying "though it's homosexual intercourse is not more inherently dangerous"

Cuck bot basically said "okay you right but it's still not inherently dangerous because no reason"

[–]IMissPorn 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

I'm fairly agnostic about the whole thing, except that not being allowed to question it does make me naturally suspicious.

But where does the 300 figure come from, out of curiosity?

[–]jet199Instigatrix 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Out of their arse.

But all these extra smart people who don't believe the standard narratives will just lap that BS up for some reason.

[–]weavilsatemyface 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm fairly agnostic about the whole thing, except that not being allowed to question it does make me naturally suspicious.

Indeed. Laws against questioning the Holocaust are anti-scientific, driven by politics, and simply keep feeding oxygen to the Denialists.

Obviously the Nazis did not leave behind a list, but the historical consensus is that about 15 million people were murdered by the Nazis, including 6 million Jews. That excludes war deaths (including civilians) but includes deaths in concentration camps and ghettos due to deliberate, malicious negligence causing disease and starvation. Those are not exact numbers, and we should be able to ask how reliable they are without being immediately being labelled a denialist or being charged with a crime.

Very few of those 15 million were cremated. Holocaust denialists who go on and on about "why weren't there any bodies" are either lying or Useful Idiots fooled by bad information. There were plenty of bodies found. Millions of them.

And where does the 300 figure come from, out of curiosity?

Pulled from thin air. I guess it was probably invented by somebody like David Irving, who frequently takes widely inaccurate and unrealistic back-of-the-envelope calculations and tries to pretend that they are precise and exact figures.

According to the German's own records, the five crematoria at Auschwitz-Birkenau were capable of processing approximately 2-3000 bodies a day. According to the crematoria manufacturers Topf & Sons, they were designed for continuous use and were supposed to handle around 12,000 bodies per day, but in practice they simply failed to cope with that many. During the roughly 18 months or so that they were in operation, it is estimated that about 900,000 bodies were cremated. Due to the failure of the crematoria to keep up with the volume of bodies, most of the dead at Auschwitz were disposed of in open-air burning pits, using alcohol, oil and human fat as fuel.

So many ash was dumped in the fields, marshes and waterways around Auschwitz-Birkenau that to this very day the soil there is a different colour and texture to the surrounding land. Anyone who says that the ash has just mysteriously disappeared is lying. Its right there, in the ground.

[–]package 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

6 gorillion killed does not mean 6 gorillion cooked

[–]jet199Instigatrix 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

Exactly. Strawman.

No one is saying 6 million Jews were killed in the camps. It's the total including Jewish soldiers killed.

[–]saiditkang 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Its probably every jew that died for any reason during the war years. Given how much ive seen these people lie in real time, I no longer believe a word they say anymore.

If the actual number was 6 million theyd claim it was 12 million. They already got caught red handed lying for decades about the number killed at aushcwitz, which amazingly never affected the 6 million number.

[–]weavilsatemyface 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

No one is saying 6 million Jews were killed in the camps.

No, that's exactly what they are saying. That includes the concentration camps, the work camps, the Warsaw ghettos, and the extermination camps, but not regular war deaths of combatants or even civilians. It includes those worked to death in the labour camps, and those gassed in the extermination camps. It includes those who died due to malicious neglect causing famine and disease. It doesn't include combat deaths, or "incidental" civilian deaths due to war or disease.

It also excludes the murders of Jews by Croatia, working on their own without direct Nazi German supervision.

The Holocaust did not just apply to Jews. At least 15 million, probably around 17 million, were murdered by the Nazis, perhaps as many as 20 million. Proportionally, the Gypsies (Roma) were the most heavily persecuted. The Jews weren't even the single largest group: peoples of the Soviet Union were, with about 9 or 10 million murdered. That does not include combat deaths, but it does include around 3 million POWs murdered.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No one is saying 6 million Jews were killed in the camps. It's the total including Jewish soldiers killed.

That's not the mainstream narrative, but it's the most reasonable explanation (together with starvation/disease in the camps) for many of the actual Jewish deaths during WW2.

[–]Oyveygoyim[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

so cut the number in half and it still doesn't add up to the bullshit narrative

[–]Fiyanggu 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

The truth is what they tell you. Questions are dangerous. Questions are not allowed.

[–]Oyveygoyim[S] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Same for investigations

https://files.catbox.moe/k86u42.jpeg

[–]Zapped 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (37 children)

Who said that 6 million bodies were cremated?

[–]weavilsatemyface 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

Who said that 6 million bodies were cremated?

Nobody.

"Six million cremated" is bullshit shovelled around by dim-witted Nazi apologists like u/Oyveygoyim who can't even do their own research, all they can do is mindlessly repeat the same old bullshit that has been debunked a thousand times before. And they know it's bullshit. They repeat what they know is a lie hoping to spread doubt amongst the ignorant.

The cremation bullshit isn't even an interesting question about the Holocaust. There are all sorts* of deep and interesting questions that people can debate about the Holocaust, but "six million cremated, where are the bodies LOL LOL LOL" is not one of them. We know where the ashes are. The whole area around Auschwitz has had the soil permanently changed from the vast amount of ashes dumped there.

Look at this pitiful creature's user name, "Oyveygoyim" for fucks sake. He's not an innocent dupe, he's not asking honest questions, he's just a loser antisemite who hates Jews because his tiny mind needs to hate somebody, and he doesn't have the morals or intelligence to hate actual villains, so he just follows the crowd of a million other loser dimwits who hate Jews for no good reason.

I mean, if you hated right-wing fascist Zionist Israelis for their crimes against Palestine, that I could get. But hating Jews because they are Jews? That's a sign of a mind that needs to take its shoes off to count to eleven.

[–]Oyveygoyim[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

I don't hate them for simply being jews. You jew lovers constantly make shit up just like the human cockroaches you constantly defend. I hate them because they cause more trouble than any other race by far. Whether it's destroying the economy, crashing the economy, starting wars and then funding both sides, immigration, actively fighting to keep our borders open, promoting things like faggotry and race mixing then turning around and promoting CRT (while not telling the truth about the slave trade], destroying the white family, communism, feminism, pedophilia, etc.

[–]weavilsatemyface 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

I hate them because they cause more trouble than any other race

That would be the British, Americans, French and Germans, but especially the first two.

It wasn't the Jews who decided to give control of Arabia to the most savage, backwards and violent tribe that they could find. It wasn't the Jews who carved up Africa and the Middle East, deliberately dividing ethnic groups between nations so as to ensure a constant source of strife and war that they could exploit. It wasn't Jews who lied about the Gulf of Tonkin to have an excuse to attack Vietnam, or who lied about WMD in Irag to justify yet another war, or who rejected the Taliban's offer to arrest Osama bin Laden and hand him over to the UN for a fair trial. It wasn't the Jews who trained and supplied Osama bin Laden, or who overthrew governments all over Asia, South America, Africa and Europe. It wasn't the Jews who supplied chemical weapons to Iraq in the 1990s.

It probably was the Israelis who false-flagged the Berlin Nightclub bombing, and maybe even the Lockerbie bombing and framed Gaddafi, and it is certainly them who are oppressing the Palestinians, but not all Jews are Israelis and even if they were not all Israelis are to blame for the crimes of a small criminal conspiracy.

If you don't blame the average Englishman or American for the centuries their imperial war mongering and countless crimes that their leaders have committed, why do you blame the average Jew?

race mixing

ROFL.

Human beings are the horniest species on earth. We've been "race mixing" since before the Jews even existed. Every single time one group of people meet another group of people, they immediately either fight or fuck, or fight and fuck. Aside from a handful of long isolated peoples like the New Guinea highlanders, and a few Amazon tribes, every race is a race of mongrels.

Always has been, always will be.

[–]Oyveygoyim[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

Yeah, blame the white man like everyone else lol

[–]weavilsatemyface 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

What, you think it was the Africans or the Chinese who drew up the boundaries between African and Middle Eastern countries after WW1? That's remarkably pig-ignorant even for a white supremacist. I thought you guys wanted to bring back the glory days of white European empire when whitey ruled Africa and divided up the Ottoman Empire after the war.

[–]Oyveygoyim[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

The same Ottoman empire that kept white Christians as slaves? Poor sand niggers will have to use their own people as slaves...

[–]weavilsatemyface 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Don't change the subject. Who divided up Africa and the Middle East into the countries we have today, if you think it wasn't the Europeans and Americans (especially the French and British)?

[–]Oyveygoyim[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Well it certainly wasn't the Jewish banking Cartel who owns the UK and the United States...

It was the evil white man!

Who controlled the slave trade shipping those Africans? I'm sure you'll say the white man because you've been taught that lie all your life. Notice how only white people aren't allowed to be proud to be white? Every non-white is allowed while whites are referred to as "nazi's" and "white supremacists". Are white people responsible for that too?

[–]weavilsatemyface 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

Well it certainly wasn't the Jewish banking Cartel who owns the UK and the United States...

Correct, because that's imaginary. Everyone knows the banking cartel is run by the Swiss.

It was the evil white man!

Power corrupts. No more evil than anyone else would be in that position, and I don't know what you mean by "white", but if you mean Anglo-Americans and Europeans, then correct again.

Who controlled the slave trade shipping those Africans?

The slave trade was long finished by WW1, so I don't know why you're bringing that up. But for the record:

  • The Arab slave trade was controlled by the Arabs, well duh.
  • The trans-Atlantic slave trade was, at different times, controlled by the Spanish, the Portuguese, the English, and the Americans. Well duh again.
  • And last but certainly not least, the supply of slaves in the first place was controlled by a handful of powerful African tribes.

None of which is relevant to what we're discussing.

Notice how only white people aren't allowed to be proud to be white?

Really? I can't say I have noticed. Is there a law or something about this?

Who are these "whites" you are referring to? Are Italians and Berbers and Irish "white"? What about the Spanish and the Iranians? How about Japanese? Some of them are pretty pale skinned.

whites are referred to as "nazi's" and "white supremacists".

By whom? I've never been called a white supremacist.

A thought comes to mind... if you don't like being referred to as a Nazi and white supremacist, maybe you could stop acting like a wanna-be Nazi and white supremacist. It doesn't make you look all edgy and cool.

[–]Oyveygoyim[S] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (18 children)

Plenty of people. Like the other person in this thread cut the number in half and it still doesn't add up. Where is the evidence of all the other jews they didn't "gas and cremate"? I'm sure you'll post a video of some of the typhus victims who were "being prepared for cremation" when all the camps were "liberated".

[–]Zapped 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (17 children)

I've heard the figure "6 million" given for the number of Jewish deaths attributed to Hitler/WWII, but I have never heard that all of them were gassed or even cremated. I do, however, believe that the number (and the reduced number possibly as well) was exaggerated, as they have already downsized the numbers of dead at various camps. However, a lot of the deaths can be attributed to disease and other forms of execution and throughout history, mass graves have been used to quickly dispose of bodies.

[–]Oyveygoyim[S] 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

Ah the mass graves excuse. Like at Treblinka?

https://files.catbox.moe/pzvsr1.png

Where are the bodies or "ash"?

[–]Zapped 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

That's an interesting story. Do you have a link? I wonder where he searched around the camp and if he looked for bone fragments as well as ash and bodies. Did he stay on the grounds of the camp or look farther out? It appears Wikipedia says between 700K and 900K were gassed in a little over one calendar year, so there's the claim. That's 1,900 a day for 425 straight days from only 6 listed gas chambers. That's not realistic, even if Treblinka was used solely as a death camp.

[–]Oyveygoyim[S] 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

https://www.ihr.org/jhr/v19/v19n3p20_radar.html

You won't find the story on major news outlets for obvious reasons

[–]weavilsatemyface 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That's an interesting story.

Not really. At best, Richard Krege was an incompetent who didn't know how to use his equipment. At worst, he deliberately faked his results. We don't even know for sure that he was looking in the right place -- he didn't have permission to do his "investigation" and had to sneak around when nobody was looking, so we only have his word about what he did and where he did it.

Other people have done real investigations and found bones and burial pits. We have Nazis records showing people were transported to Treblinka, we have photos of the people and trains, we had about 100 survivors of the Treblinka uprising. The question is, if the people shipped to Treblinka weren't killed and their bodies disposed of, where did they go afterwards? Nania?

Krege himself claimed in 2006 that up to 10,000 people died in the camp, but of disease. If he found no ash and no sign of disturbed soil, what happened to their bodies?

That's 1,900 a day for 425 straight days from only 6 listed gas chambers. That's not realistic, even if Treblinka was used solely as a death camp.

Of course it is. People fail to realise just how efficient mass murder can be made if you treat it like any other industrial process.

Slaughter houses for cattle can process 4000 cattle a day and they have to worry about food hygiene. Cows are a lot bigger than people too. Each cow has to be killed by hand, the Nazis could just cram hundreds of people into an air-tight building, bolt the doors shut, and pump it full of carbon monoxide.

According to testimony given at the trial of Franz Stangl, a train transport of about 3,000 people could be processed in three hours, so around 12,000 to 15,000 people murdered in a work day. After the new gas chambers were built, the duration of the killing process was reduced to an hour and a half. Getting through 2,000 people a day would not be a stretch.

[–]weavilsatemyface 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

I've heard the figure "6 million" given for the number of Jewish deaths attributed to Hitler/WWII, but I have never heard that all of them were gassed or even cremated.

That's because they weren't all gassed or cremated. Roughly:

  • 32% died of famine and disease
  • 19% by gassing
  • 16% by forced labour
  • 15% by shooting
  • and the remaining 18% by other means (e.g. beatings, execution by hanging, medical experiments) or unknown.

The famine and disease deaths are counted as Holocaust victims because they happened under the direct responsibility of the Nazis, and not incidental and accidental consequences of war. The disease and starvation was not "a mere consequence of war, bad things happening everywhere, we tried our best but they still died", they were deliberate, malicious neglect and intentional Nazi policy to let disease and famine kill them to save on bullets.

I do, however, believe that the number (and the reduced number possibly as well) was exaggerated, as they have already downsized the numbers of dead at various camps.

Sure, some estimates were high, but some were low and had to be increased.

Obviously the Nazis didn't keep a list of everyone they murdered, and those lists which they did keep, they tried very hard to destroy. Historians have had to piece together evidence from many different places, and different people come up with different estimates. Some are higher than others, some are more reliable than others, and the low estimates are not necessarily the best.

All the figures have to be taken as round number estimates, and different people have made different estimates. Some of the early estimates in the 1940s were way off, especially from the Soviets. But the modern estimates are the result of a lot of careful research by many hundreds of people. They're not exact numbers, but they're pretty good given the evidence we have.

Besides, does it really matter if it were only 5 million murdered instead of 6? I guess the Nazis weren't so bad after all! /s

However, a lot of the deaths can be attributed to disease and other forms of execution and throughout history, mass graves have been used to quickly dispose of bodies.

As I said above, those who died of disease were as much victims of murder as those who were shot or gassed. The deliberate use of disease and hunger to kill is still murder. Around the world, another 19-28 million people died of disease and hunger due to WW2, but they don't get counted as Holocaust victims because they weren't deliberate.

All up, around 17 million people were murdered by the Nazis, out of a total death toll in WW2 of 70-85 million. That includes:

  • About 5.7 million European Jews were killed in the concentration camps, or by mobile death squads in the Soviet Union.
  • Another few hundred thousand died in the Warsaw Ghetto. So that's around 6 million, in round numbers.
  • Around 9 or 10 million citizens of the Soviet Union were murdered. That includes about 1.3 million Jews, plus 3 million POWs.
  • Another 2 or 3 million non-Jewish Poles were murdered in the camps.
  • "Only" half a million Gypsies (Roma) were murdered, which proportionally is probably higher than the number of Jews murdered.

[–]Notspendingmylife 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

What a crock of shit. How can anyone know even roughly to the percentage how many people died from what causes in the concentration camps (which we now are informational black boxes) when there is no camp documentation to the things you are describing!!!! There is 0 evidence and reason to believe any of your numbers, especially when it comes to the camps. According to German documents, 300k people of all ethnicities died in the whole German concentration camp system. These documents allege how many poeple died from what causes and what ethnicity they are. These are the only documents that exist. This is the only form of documentation you get about the camps. Any other breakdown of what death camps are caused by what cause are 100% baseless, worthless speculation. Do you even know how historians get to these kill numbers per 'death camp'? By DEPORTATION LISTS. They look at the train records, see how many people passed each camp and assume that a given percentage (big majority) simply gets gassed. There is no 'documentation' about any Holocaust whatsoever in the camps. These poeple simply assume that most people who were sent ther were simply murdered. The Nazis where the top dog bureucrats except when it came to the Holocaust/destroyed all the evidence, didn't you know?

'All the figures have to be taken as round number estimates, and different people have made different estimates. Some of the early estimates in the 1940s were way off, especially from the Soviets. But the modern estimates are the result of a lot of careful research by many hundreds of people. They're not exact numbers, but they're pretty good given the evidence we have.' Mate you propably would have believed that 4 Million people where murdered in Auschwitz alone back in the day when it was historical consensus (until 1990). Back in 1945/6 at Nuremberg, 4 Million at Auschwitz was the prevailing dogma with even Hoess testifying to 2.5 million during his control alone. And your last sentence says it all, hey the Historians seem pretty confident about their claims given the nonexistent evidence! Are the same masterminds that accepted 4 Million dead at Auschwitz for decades now finally waking up to give us the 'real truth' now?

[–]weavilsatemyface 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

How can anyone know even roughly to the percentage how many people died from what causes in the concentration camps

Just because you can't imagine how people work it out, doesn't mean that nobody can.

In one breath, you say it is impossible to know "even roughly" how many people died, and then in the very next breath you happily repeat bullshit claims that only "300k people" died.

  • You can't know how many people died!!! It's impossible!!!
  • I know how many people died, and here is the totally ludicrous and ridiculous number.

So okay, if only 300K people died, what happened to the millions of Soviet POWs? What happened to the people on the deportation lists? Maybe aliens stole them and took them to Uranus.

There is 0 evidence

Sure, if you ignore the literal mountains of evidence, like the documentation, eyewitnesses, survivors, confessions, physical evidence, burial pits, actual bodies, masses of ashes and bone fragments, aerial photos, records of deportations, widespread demographic changes across Europe, etc. Just scrunch your eyelids closed, stuff your fingers in your ears, and shout "there is no evidence, no evidence at all I tell you!!!"

Do you even know how historians get to these kill numbers

I do. You obviously don't. They don't rely solely on deportation lists, but even if they did, where are all those deported people if they weren't killed?

you propably would have believed that 4 Million people where murdered in Auschwitz alone back in the day when it was historical consensus (until 1990).

Maybe I would have, but probably not, because the "4 million at Auschwitz alone" figure came almost entirely from the Polish government, and has always been contradicted by estimates from other sources. But if I had accepted it, I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong, and update my beliefs when new and better sources of information come along. How about you?

There is much more evidence for the Holocaust than for the existence of Julius Caesar, or king Henry VIII, but I bet you don't deny their existence.

[–]Notspendingmylife 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Demographic changes are proof of death?Where is the proof? During WW2 millions of people were displaced, including Jews, a walking tribe of nothingness with no home country, and therefore no central register. Millions of Jews emigrated Europe shortly after the end of the war into the US and Palestine/Israel. Many stayed behind the Iron Curtain for decades. Perfect conditions for a world demogprahic analysis, right?

Millions of Jews(and other people) were sent to transit camps during the war? That must mean they were gassed. LOL. Is this all you have? Where are the 10 Million displaced Germans from Eastern Europe, were they all murdered, or flown to Uranus? (The Jews at least have a reason to survive). Maybe the people were sent further east? Where is your proof that the final destination were the camps when there are no train records from these camps?(Very much in the luck for Holocaust historians) Höss testified for 2.5 Million during his administration during the Nuremberg Trials, the pilars of the Holocaust . Why don't you believe his confession? I thought SS confessions are very reliable?

[–]weavilsatemyface 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Demographic changes are proof of death?

If, at the start of the war, there were (let's say) 80 thousand Swiss in Greece, and during the war 20 thousand of them emigrate to other countries, and then after the war it is found that there are only 10 thousand Swiss remaining, what happened to the other 50 thousand of them? The only logical conclusion is that the Swiss are the secret rulers of the world and deserved to be murdered, but they weren't actually murdered, they just disappeared off the trains into thin air half way to the death camps that actually weren't murder camps even though the people who made them called them murder camps and everything. Right?

Millions of Jews emigrated Europe shortly after the end of the war into the US and Palestine/Israel.

Exactly. We know how many Jews were in Europe before the war, because they were counted by their home countries. It was the 20th century, not 500 BCE, all European countries had bureaucracies to count their population, most countries in Europe demanded that people were registered at birth and had identity papers. After the war, we know how many survivors were left because they were counted again, especially those who migrated. What happened to the rest? Did they just disappear into smoke by spontaneous human combustion?

Yes, in the chaos of the war, some people would fall through the cracks and gain a stolen or fake identity, or just sneak out of the country. How many? A few hundred, maybe a few thousands? Even fifty thousand would be a mere 1% or so, and would make no difference to the big picture.

a walking tribe of nothingness with no home country

Jews in Europe were citizens of France, Germany, Austria, Greece, Poland, Russia etc. They were counted in censuses. They owned houses and had jobs or worked the land as permanent farm workers. They had homes and businesses which were stolen from them. They weren't migrant transient peoples like the Gypsies who never stayed in one place for long. That is why there were only a few Gypsies in Europe, and it is much, much harder to work out how many were killed. But the Jews were settled citizens who paid taxes and had identity papers.

As an ethnic group, they had no home country, like many other ethnic groups who have been brutalised by their more powerful neighbours. Ask the Kurds where their home country is. As a religion, they have no need for a home country: you can be a Jewish German just as you can be a Catholic German or a Protestant German or a Buddhist German or an atheist German.

Millions of Jews(and other people) were sent to transit camps during the war?

Transit camps to where? Uranus? That must be it: the Germans loaded them into giant rocket ships, and sent them to the Moon, where now there are tens of millions of people, descendants of the Slavs and Jews and Jehovahs Witnesses who weren't actually killed at all. What other possible explanation could there be, I mean just because the Nazi leadership talked about exterminating the Jews and Slavs, just because eye-witnesses saw them, and some camp guards confessed, and corpses found, and mobile killing vans captured, doesn't mean the Nazis actually did what they said they did.

Its all a big misunderstanding, the Nazis put the Jews on a train and sent them to Japan, where they happily converted to Buddhism and integrated with the Japanese.

Where are the 10 Million displaced Germans from Eastern Europe, were they all murdered

It was more like 12 million, maybe as many as 15 million. No, they weren't all murdered. We know where they ended up. There were three waves:

  • The organised evacuation of Germans by the Nazi government.
  • The disorganised fleeing of ethnic Germans following the Wehrmacht's defeat.
  • And the organised expulsion of Germans from Hungary, Poland and Czechoslovakia, agreed to by the Allies in the Potsdam Agreement.

At least half a million, maybe as many as two million, died during the flight and expulsion, from hunger, disease, and, yes, some of them murdered. The survivors ended up in Germany.

It is ironic that you don't believe demographic data when it comes to the Holocaust but you do believe it when it comes to the expulsion of the Germans. Hypocrisy is a terrible thing.

Höss testified for 2.5 Million during his administration during the Nuremberg Trials

He also testified that he wasn't sure how many people were killed, because the records had been destroyed to cover it up, and his figure of 2.5 million was just his best guess.

The problem with Holocaust denialists is that they think evidence is like a chain. If one single link in the chain is broken, no matter how small, the whole thing breaks apart. If somebody says they personally cut the throat of some Jew with a six inch carving knife on a Monday, but it turned out it was actually a five inch filleting knife on a Tuesday, that discrepancy is enough to prove that the Holocaust didn't happen according to the denialists.

But evidence is more like a rope, not a chain. If a thread breaks in a rope, it doesn't matter. Who cares if Höss was unable to remember the exact number of people he murdered? Whether it was 2.5 million or 1 million or just half a million barely matters in the big picture.

The CEO of Nike probably doesn't know how many pairs of running shoes the company made either, and would have to look it up, and if the records had been destroyed he'd have to guess too. I suppose that means that Nike doesn't actually make running shoes. Its all a big lie. Right?

Why don't you believe his confession? I thought SS confessions are very reliable?

No, confessions and eye-witness accounts are the least reliable form of evidence. Physical evidence, like tens of thousands of emaciated, starving survivors, mass graves, burn pits, mountains of ash spread over hundreds of acres of land, aerial photographs, etc are much more reliable. But even less reliable evidence is still evidence. Thousands of -people were eye-witnesses or confessed. Each one individually might be not be perfectly reliable, but some are more unreliable than others, and there is collaborating physical evidence. In total, historians can work out what's impossible, what's unlikely, what's plausible, and what's likely. That's what they do.

A crime was committed. The accused had means, motive and opportunity, and left a mountain of evidence behind despite trying to destroy it. There are witnesses, and confessions, and physical evidence. Where the evidence collaborates we can be more certain. Where the evidence contradicts, we can reject it as mistaken, or confused, or simply that in the chaos of real historical events not everything is cut and dried.

[–]Hoomsns 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I wouldn't mind holding you in a prison, starving you.

I would be sure to provide you with a cold room to sleep.

[–]JewsAreOfColor 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

There were more than 6 million Jews killed at the hands of national Socialism. And national Socialism is Socialism. Their alliance with Stalin proves it. Stalinism is true communism and your “no true Scotsman“ fallacies are not going to cut it this time, degenerate.

[–]weavilsatemyface 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

And national Socialism is Socialism.

Like the Bible, you can find something in Hitler's words to support pretty much everything, including contradictions. The Nazis were a mixed capitalist economy, but mostly to the right wing economically. Having said that, Hitler was a totalitarian with a mystical view of the State, with him as the embodiment of the State, so it is possible to find Hitler making statements which sound superficially "socialist".

But talk is cheap, and we should look at what the Nazis actually did, not what Hitler (who frequently contradicted himself) said he wanted to do. Let's compare Germany under the Nazis to the USSR:

The Nazis:

  • privatised state-owned industries
  • did deals with major corporations and cartels
  • had an aggressively pro-private corporation economic policy
  • privatised or shut down government social programs
  • suppressed the union movement
  • gave subsidies to private enterprise
  • did deals with literally hundreds of companies
  • respected the rule of private contracts between so-called "Aryans"
  • encouraged private ownership of the means of production.

The USSR had:

  • 100% state ownership of the means of production
  • no corporations
  • no private industry
  • no unions (Stalin distrusted them)

Both countries hated unions, that is a characteristic of all totalitarian and authoritarian governments, they hate anything that gives ordinary people power. But apart from that, there is no comparison between the two. Time and time again, Hitler's economic actions supported right-wing capitalism; Stalin was always communist. Of course both were totalitarian, but there the similarity ends.

Under the Soviets, all private corporations were banned and nationalised. Under the Nazis, the list of companies that thrived includes Thyssen, Krupp, IG Farben, Bosch, Blaupunkt, Daimler-Benz, Demag, Henschel, Messerschmitt, Siemens, and Volkswagen.

The Soviets nationalised everything; the Nazis nationalised virtually nothing. (The only exception I can find is Junkers, but even then, they paid full compensation to the owners.) The Soviets made everything a state-owned enterprise; the Nazis privatised nearly all state-owned enterprises, and created very few new ones. (Again, I can only find one exception: the iron ore enterprise Reichswerke Hermann Goring.)

When the Nazis took power, they went on an orgy of privatisation, far more than the other economically capitalist countries of Europe. They privatised social services to companies they could trust to enforce their racial policies, such as Die Deutsche Arbeitsfront (German Labor Front) and Nationalsozialistiche Volkswohlfahrt (National Socialist People’s Welfare Organization – NSV). They privatised state-owned banks, shipping companies, ship builders, utility companies etc, including what was at the time the largest public enterprise in the world, the Deutsche Reichsbahn (German Railways). Very few state-run enterprises survived their push to privatisation.

Unlike the way they treated the Jews and countries they invaded, in Germany itself they generally respected contract law and private property belonging to corporations. No German company was forced under threat of violence to deal with the government, contract terms were negotiated, and companies were generally permitted to work towards their own goals. Even in industries with quotas where the military got priority, the Nazis gave corporations large quotas for general use. Company managers had autonomy and full control over what they did with their general quota.

Compare that to the USSR, where there were no companies, and managers worked for the state and had little or no autonomy.

The Nazis were not a laissez faire lib-right government. They were an interventionist government and a pro-capitalist fascist state: neither a totally free market nor a state-controlled economy, but one where the government put its thumb on the scales to the advantage of big corporations. Their war aims came first, of course, and everything was subservient to Hitler's plans, but after that the Nazis and Hitler himself were pro-business.

In 1932, the Nazi Party was effectively bankrupt until the capitalists came to their rescue wand bailed them out. When they came into power, Hitler was grateful and most Nazi economic interventions were on the side of big corporations:

  • they sold state assets
  • shut down small businesses in favour of big companies
  • forced medium sized companies into cartels
  • and provided millions of literal slave workers to the corporations. (By 1944, fully one quarter of all workers in Germany were slaves, but they were slaves working for private industry.)

The idea that the Nazis were socialists is nonsense on stilts. It is utter madness, that can only be believed by people who know nothing of how the Nazis ran Germany.

http://piketty.pse.ens.fr/files/capitalisback/CountryData/Germany/Other/Pre1950Series/RefsHistoricalGermanAccounts/BuchheimScherner06.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Nazi_Germany

Their alliance with Stalin proves it.

The UK and USA allied themselves with Stalin too. They must be communist! Everyone is communist!

But what about the name? They called themselves National Socialists. Doesn't that prove it? My friend, allow me to let you in to a little secret: politicians lie. Just because they use the name "Socialist" in their name doesn't mean they are socialist. Anyone can call themselves anything they like.

As far back as 1919, when a young corporal in the German Army was ordered by his army superiors to infiltrate the German Workers Party (DAP) which later became the National Socialist Party, the name was chosen to attract working class Germans, but without supporting far-left socialist economics. The party was always extremely nationalistic and antisemitic (two features which attracted Hitler) right from the beginning, with incoherent economic views that believed that poor, innocent capitalists were being led astray by "financiers" and communist Jews. In modern terms, we would call that a popularist, nationalist party with moderate centre-left economic leanings mostly concerned with worker welfare. Once Hitler took over, he rapidly moved the party to the authoritarian centre-right, but kept the name.

[–]JewsAreOfColor 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

So you just proved my point. National Socialism is Socialism.

[–]weavilsatemyface 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Me: "Here are fifty ways that National Socialism was right-wing pro-capitalist and the complete opposite of communism, and one thing that the Nazis and the Stalinists had in common."

You: "See, they're exactly the same!"

[–]JewsAreOfColor 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

All of those links were falsified. Every single one. National Socialism is Socialism. The Molotov Ribbentrop pact is proof of that. The fact that Hitler was willingly in an alliance with Stalin is proof that National Socialism is Socialism.

Weevils also ate your brain.

[–]weavilsatemyface 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

All of those links were falsified. Every single one.

Just crying "No no no, they were falsified!!!!1!" doesn't prove anything.

The fact that Hitler was willingly in an alliance with Stalin

Since we have many records from both the Nazis, captured after their arses were whipped in WW2, and from Soviet defectors, we know two things about that alliance:

  • Hitler's alliance with Stalin was a trap to fool the Soviets into a false sense of security before Operation Barbarossa;
  • it worked: Stalin was so taken in that when the Germans invaded, at first he refused to believe it.

is proof that National Socialism is Socialism.

The UK and the USA also had an alliance with Stalin, so I guess by your Big Brain Logic that must mean that the UK and USA are socialist too. "Yes Virginia, Winston Churchill was a dirty commie pinko socialist, just like those famous other commies, Hitler, Mussolini and Emperor Hirohito."

[–]EternalSunset 3 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

Cucked AI developers will 'fix' this quick enough, ensuring the AI is never offensive is like 98% of their work.

[–]Brewdabier 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I was at auschwitz and ask questions, why did US soldiers destroy the crematorium and gas chambers then later rebuild them. Here is 2 ovens built by J. A. Topf & Söhne. You can't walk up to them however the door was about 18 inch by 24 inch (45 cm x 60cm). how could they put 2 or more bodies in at a time. Why was there a theater, cafeteria, housing, 6 heated pools and store if the Nazis was just going to kill everyone.

[–]weavilsatemyface 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Why was there a theater, cafeteria, housing, 6 heated pools and store

Even at Auschwitz there were work camps for non-Jewish prisoners. They had all sorts of rewards to encourage hard work. Besides nobody said that the Nazis were the most consistent in their management of the camps.