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[–]JewsAreOfColor 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

There were more than 6 million Jews killed at the hands of national Socialism. And national Socialism is Socialism. Their alliance with Stalin proves it. Stalinism is true communism and your “no true Scotsman“ fallacies are not going to cut it this time, degenerate.

[–]weavilsatemyface 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

And national Socialism is Socialism.

Like the Bible, you can find something in Hitler's words to support pretty much everything, including contradictions. The Nazis were a mixed capitalist economy, but mostly to the right wing economically. Having said that, Hitler was a totalitarian with a mystical view of the State, with him as the embodiment of the State, so it is possible to find Hitler making statements which sound superficially "socialist".

But talk is cheap, and we should look at what the Nazis actually did, not what Hitler (who frequently contradicted himself) said he wanted to do. Let's compare Germany under the Nazis to the USSR:

The Nazis:

  • privatised state-owned industries
  • did deals with major corporations and cartels
  • had an aggressively pro-private corporation economic policy
  • privatised or shut down government social programs
  • suppressed the union movement
  • gave subsidies to private enterprise
  • did deals with literally hundreds of companies
  • respected the rule of private contracts between so-called "Aryans"
  • encouraged private ownership of the means of production.

The USSR had:

  • 100% state ownership of the means of production
  • no corporations
  • no private industry
  • no unions (Stalin distrusted them)

Both countries hated unions, that is a characteristic of all totalitarian and authoritarian governments, they hate anything that gives ordinary people power. But apart from that, there is no comparison between the two. Time and time again, Hitler's economic actions supported right-wing capitalism; Stalin was always communist. Of course both were totalitarian, but there the similarity ends.

Under the Soviets, all private corporations were banned and nationalised. Under the Nazis, the list of companies that thrived includes Thyssen, Krupp, IG Farben, Bosch, Blaupunkt, Daimler-Benz, Demag, Henschel, Messerschmitt, Siemens, and Volkswagen.

The Soviets nationalised everything; the Nazis nationalised virtually nothing. (The only exception I can find is Junkers, but even then, they paid full compensation to the owners.) The Soviets made everything a state-owned enterprise; the Nazis privatised nearly all state-owned enterprises, and created very few new ones. (Again, I can only find one exception: the iron ore enterprise Reichswerke Hermann Goring.)

When the Nazis took power, they went on an orgy of privatisation, far more than the other economically capitalist countries of Europe. They privatised social services to companies they could trust to enforce their racial policies, such as Die Deutsche Arbeitsfront (German Labor Front) and Nationalsozialistiche Volkswohlfahrt (National Socialist People’s Welfare Organization – NSV). They privatised state-owned banks, shipping companies, ship builders, utility companies etc, including what was at the time the largest public enterprise in the world, the Deutsche Reichsbahn (German Railways). Very few state-run enterprises survived their push to privatisation.

Unlike the way they treated the Jews and countries they invaded, in Germany itself they generally respected contract law and private property belonging to corporations. No German company was forced under threat of violence to deal with the government, contract terms were negotiated, and companies were generally permitted to work towards their own goals. Even in industries with quotas where the military got priority, the Nazis gave corporations large quotas for general use. Company managers had autonomy and full control over what they did with their general quota.

Compare that to the USSR, where there were no companies, and managers worked for the state and had little or no autonomy.

The Nazis were not a laissez faire lib-right government. They were an interventionist government and a pro-capitalist fascist state: neither a totally free market nor a state-controlled economy, but one where the government put its thumb on the scales to the advantage of big corporations. Their war aims came first, of course, and everything was subservient to Hitler's plans, but after that the Nazis and Hitler himself were pro-business.

In 1932, the Nazi Party was effectively bankrupt until the capitalists came to their rescue wand bailed them out. When they came into power, Hitler was grateful and most Nazi economic interventions were on the side of big corporations:

  • they sold state assets
  • shut down small businesses in favour of big companies
  • forced medium sized companies into cartels
  • and provided millions of literal slave workers to the corporations. (By 1944, fully one quarter of all workers in Germany were slaves, but they were slaves working for private industry.)

The idea that the Nazis were socialists is nonsense on stilts. It is utter madness, that can only be believed by people who know nothing of how the Nazis ran Germany.

http://piketty.pse.ens.fr/files/capitalisback/CountryData/Germany/Other/Pre1950Series/RefsHistoricalGermanAccounts/BuchheimScherner06.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Nazi_Germany

Their alliance with Stalin proves it.

The UK and USA allied themselves with Stalin too. They must be communist! Everyone is communist!

But what about the name? They called themselves National Socialists. Doesn't that prove it? My friend, allow me to let you in to a little secret: politicians lie. Just because they use the name "Socialist" in their name doesn't mean they are socialist. Anyone can call themselves anything they like.

As far back as 1919, when a young corporal in the German Army was ordered by his army superiors to infiltrate the German Workers Party (DAP) which later became the National Socialist Party, the name was chosen to attract working class Germans, but without supporting far-left socialist economics. The party was always extremely nationalistic and antisemitic (two features which attracted Hitler) right from the beginning, with incoherent economic views that believed that poor, innocent capitalists were being led astray by "financiers" and communist Jews. In modern terms, we would call that a popularist, nationalist party with moderate centre-left economic leanings mostly concerned with worker welfare. Once Hitler took over, he rapidly moved the party to the authoritarian centre-right, but kept the name.

[–]JewsAreOfColor 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

So you just proved my point. National Socialism is Socialism.

[–]weavilsatemyface 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Me: "Here are fifty ways that National Socialism was right-wing pro-capitalist and the complete opposite of communism, and one thing that the Nazis and the Stalinists had in common."

You: "See, they're exactly the same!"

[–]JewsAreOfColor 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

All of those links were falsified. Every single one. National Socialism is Socialism. The Molotov Ribbentrop pact is proof of that. The fact that Hitler was willingly in an alliance with Stalin is proof that National Socialism is Socialism.

Weevils also ate your brain.

[–]weavilsatemyface 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

All of those links were falsified. Every single one.

Just crying "No no no, they were falsified!!!!1!" doesn't prove anything.

The fact that Hitler was willingly in an alliance with Stalin

Since we have many records from both the Nazis, captured after their arses were whipped in WW2, and from Soviet defectors, we know two things about that alliance:

  • Hitler's alliance with Stalin was a trap to fool the Soviets into a false sense of security before Operation Barbarossa;
  • it worked: Stalin was so taken in that when the Germans invaded, at first he refused to believe it.

is proof that National Socialism is Socialism.

The UK and the USA also had an alliance with Stalin, so I guess by your Big Brain Logic that must mean that the UK and USA are socialist too. "Yes Virginia, Winston Churchill was a dirty commie pinko socialist, just like those famous other commies, Hitler, Mussolini and Emperor Hirohito."

[–]JewsAreOfColor 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Considering the ungrateful limey honkies voted him out for Clement Attlee after the war…