you are viewing a single comment's thread.

view the rest of the comments →

[–]Chipit 62 insightful - 12 fun62 insightful - 11 fun63 insightful - 12 fun -  (44 children)

I notice how you don't actually make any arguments or cite any sources. Your whole argument is "how dare you effectively and repeatedly point out the many problems with my ideology".

And I get it - you don't debate or argue. The refusal to argue or debate has moved from the far left to the mainstream left today. A pillar of "woke" ideology is the rejection of debate. They consider it part of the Enlightenment, and thus irredeemably damned by racism. Anyone who participates in Enlightenment ideals like argument or thesis/anti-thesis/synthesis is merely reinforcing injustice. Here's a good rundown of the reasoning employed today and why it isn't going anywhere: https://newdiscourses.com/2020/07/woke-wont-debate-you-heres-why/

But since I know you won't read the link, here's the gist of it:

Here, the “master’s tools” are explicitly named by Bailey as including soundness and validity of argument, conceptual clarity, and epistemic adequacy (i.e., knowing what you’re talking about) and can easily be extended to science, reason, and rationality, and thus also to conversation and debate. The “master’s house” is the “organizational schemata” laid out by Kristie Dotson as the prevailing knowing system. Her claim is that these tools—essentially all of the liberal ones—cannot dismantle liberal societies from within, which is their goal, because they are the very tools that build and keep building it.

Bailey’s point is clear: the usual tools by which we identify provisional truths and settle scholarly disagreements are part of the hegemonically dominant system that, by definition, cannot be sufficiently radical to create real revolutionary change (a “third-order” change, as Dotson has it). That is, they can’t reorder society in the radical way they deem necessary. The belief, as both scholars explain in different ways, is that to play by the existing rules (like conversation and debate as a means to better understand society and advance truth) is to automatically be co-opted by those rules and to support their legitimacy, beside one deeper problem that’s even more significant.

The deeper, more significant aspect of this problem is that by participating in something like conversation or debate about scholarly, ethical, or other disagreements, not only do the radical Critical Social Justice scholars have to tacitly endorse the existing system, they also have to be willing to agree to participate in a system in which they truly believe they cannot win. This isn’t the same as saying they know they’d lose the debate because they know their methods are weak. It’s saying that they believe their tools are extremely good but not welcome in the currently dominant system, which is a different belief based on different assumptions. Again, their game is not our game, and they don’t want to play our game at all; they want to disrupt and dismantle it.

Their analysis would insist that their methods aren’t weak; it’s that the dominant system treats them unfairly. By being forced to participate in the dominant system, they therefore believe, they’re being cheated of the full force of their cause. To them, if we set the legitimization of the system part aside, to engage in scholarly conversation or debate is like a boxer stepping into an MMA match in which kicks, punches, throwing, and grappling are all on the table for the MMA fighter whereas gloved punches are the only thing the boxer is allowed to use, only far worse.

Debate and conversation, especially when they rely upon reason, rationality, science, evidence, epistemic adequacy, and other Enlightenment-based tools of persuasion are the very thing they think produced injustice in the world in the first place. Those are not their methods and they reject them. Their methods are, instead, storytelling and counter-storytelling, appealing to emotions and subjectively interpreted lived experience, and problematizing arguments morally, on their moral terms. Because they know the dominant liberal order values those things sense far less than rigor, evidence, and reasoned argument, they believe the whole conversation and debate game is intrinsically rigged against them in a way that not only leads to their certain loss but also that props up the existing system and then further delegitimizes the approaches they advance in their place. Critical Social Justice Theorists genuinely believe getting away from the “master’s tools” is necessary to break the hegemony of the dominant modes of thought. Debate is a no-win for them.

Therefore, you’ll find them resistant to engaging in debate because they fully believe that engaging in debate or other kinds of conversation forces them to do their work in a system that has been rigged so that they cannot possibly win, no matter how well they do. They literally believe, in some sense, that the system itself hates people like them and has always been rigged to keep them and their views out. Even the concepts of civil debate (instead of screaming, reeeee!) and methodological rigor (instead of appealing to subjective claims and emotions) are considered this way, as approaches that only have superiority within the dominant paradigm, which was in turn illegitimately installed through political processes designed to advance the interests of powerful white, Western men (especially rich ones) through the exclusion of all others. And, yes, they really think this way.

For adherents to Critical Social Justice Theory, then, there’s just no point to engaging in conversation or debate with people with whom they disagree. They reject the premise that such a thing is possible at all, because what is discussed or debated are, if changeable, in some sense matters of opinion. They don’t see the world this way at all, though. “Racism is not a matter of opinion” is, after all, one of their thought-stopping mantras. For them, disagreements across a stratifying axis of social power are a matter of being, experience, reality, and even life and death. These are not matters to be debated; they’re far too important for that.

[–]plumedoomer 21 insightful - 6 fun21 insightful - 5 fun22 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

So, basically - they're dumb, hyper-emotional, incapable of doing logical reasoning, lack discernment and think their feelings are "ways of knowing" instead of just a reaction to stimuli. They hate objectivity because they think emotionalism is a valid source of knowledge; not material validity. Not even intuition - emotions.

If they think I hate them, they're right because they create everything that is awful and stagnant in the world.

[–]Tom_Bombadil 9 insightful - 9 fun9 insightful - 8 fun10 insightful - 9 fun -  (0 children)

/s/Chipshit is a shill.

[–]zyxzevn 11 insightful - 3 fun11 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

I think the meme was referring to some new people that have come here, who are using the reddit-like method of voting based on opinion and click-bait. But with that they build themselves a group-think.

The points of "why the woke wont debate.." are great, but I am missing a few points.
I am sorry I don't have time to source them

Some new points:

1) Propaganda. A lot of people are victims of endless propaganda. CNN and MSNBC and more left media are continuously spewing partially imaginary stories, that are meant to make you think a certain way.

2) Bad education. They don't know how to think, but learn to repeat ideas that are stated for them.
This continues even on University and PhD, and makes them worse.

3) The idea that everyone who does not have the same opinion, or idea, is an enemy. Black-white fallacy.
This is trained even in culture. You need to be for one party, and against another.
There is usually no grey area, or an area of agreement. And if there is, there is no other option.
Like: How many countries should US occupy with troops? 20? or 12? or maybe 15?

4) Two sided thinking in the US. More than 2 party solutions are not considered in most discussions in the media and schools. Having a different idea or different party is even regarded as invalid.
I see the 2 party system like a communist 1 party system that switches "side" so once and a while. The same groups of people are in the top every time.

5) Frustration with the system. Many left people see how the system fails them, and can not give them a job that they want. They learn to blame this on the more successful people, just above their level. These are their direct competition. But many do not see that the real problems of the system come from much more powerful and much richer people. And somehow left and right are locked into fighting each other, and this is hiding the real problem.

6) The power of money. Many on the left and the right have no problems accepting or using money for steering political decisions and justice.
This means that the people that have the most money, the Federal reserve and the monopolies, are actually steering the political and even cultural decisions. People 1 can spend 1000 dollars while the top can spend 1000,000,000,000 dollars. And they 1 still think they have some influence.

What about making decisions based on conscience, harmony, honesty, cooperation?

Solutions:

A) Teach each other how to think for yourself.
Here is a proposal: How to investigate the Truth

B) Support each other even when you have different opinions. Don't let the propaganda make us enemies.
It is nice when people can have different ideas and learn more.
Guide each other towards conscience, harmony, honesty, cooperation.

C) Identify the individual people that are performing bad or even criminal actions. Even if you like them, see their mistakes.
Like Elon Mush is bringing back some space travel, but he iwants to put computers in brains.

[–][deleted]  (1 child)

[deleted]

    [–]zyxzevn 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

    [–]Questionable 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

    Bro, it just says, "Leftist bad". That's all! What the fuck is wrong with you? You are debating the shadows cast on your bedroom walls, by the sock puppet you put over your own hands!

    [–][deleted] 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (34 children)

    Who listens to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5CVsCnxyXg ? Anymore i mean.

    Just take your head into this millenium. It can't be that hard.

    [–]Chipit 17 insightful - 3 fun17 insightful - 2 fun18 insightful - 3 fun -  (33 children)

    That's it? That's your reply? A non sequitur?

    Well, I suppose it's all we're going to get from people who refuse to debate or argue. Like a boxer stepping into the ring with an MMA fighter, you are. You're right to refuse to argue. Facts and logic dissolve you like sunlight to a vampire.

    [–][deleted] 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (29 children)

    Facts? Which one ? Tell me just one .

    [–]Chipit 14 insightful - 3 fun14 insightful - 2 fun15 insightful - 3 fun -  (28 children)

    Arguing doesn't serve the leftist cause, because facts and logic are Enlightenment values. In modern times, no other indictment is more serious than that the Enlightenment endorsed slavery.

    Despite proclaiming that "all men are created equal," there was widespread support for slavery, which made a mockery of Enlightenment aspirations of liberty. Enlightenment freedom only meant the freedom of the well-off to prey on the oppressed and downtrodden. Secondly, the notion of racial inferiority was a creation of Enlightenment thought.

    Thus Enlightenment values only serve to reinforce injustice and racism. Debating and arguing (the master's tools) are Enlightenment values, thus engaging in them is pointless, as you yourself reinforce with your nonsensical replies. The master's tools will never dismantle the master's house. See: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02691728.2013.782585

    [–][deleted] 5 insightful - 6 fun5 insightful - 5 fun6 insightful - 6 fun -  (17 children)

    I define . You only can cite. This is a serious difference.

    Edit: Like OP, he has the ability to define, too.

    [–]Chipit 15 insightful - 2 fun15 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 2 fun -  (16 children)

    You still haven't made any arguments, and you won't make any. I'm the MMA fighter, and you're the boxer. Don't even step in the ring. At this point you should start saying things about "lived experience trumps logical analysis" and calling me a racist.

    Per Critical Race Theory, any concept invented or propagated by Enlightenment values is inherently "white" and inherently privileges white people. The free market? Racist! Free speech? Racist! Individual liberty? Racist! All of these things are racist because they were invented by white people, became popular in societies that were largely white, and led to white people rising to the top of "inequality."

    [–][deleted] 3 insightful - 7 fun3 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 7 fun -  (15 children)

    You're wasting energy, which clearly shows, i won again.

    [–]Chipit 17 insightful - 2 fun17 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 2 fun -  (14 children)

    It's amusing that I can predict your responses, which are non sequitur again and again. Well, you won't argue and you can't. So what's left?

    [–][deleted] 3 insightful - 7 fun3 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 7 fun -  (13 children)

    You ever will rotate in the right direction? Instead of fighting a king made from water?

    Edit: You lost already. Two times, asshat.

    [–]JasonCarswell 5 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 4 fun -  (9 children)

    Chipit is a shill liar who needs to understand what I already explained - that there are 2 "lefts" (the old-Left and the distracting insane SJW Corporate BLM Dems) and lumping them together is exactly what the Zionists want. The world is anything but tribalist binary, but that simplicity is appealing to simple minds.

    [–]jamesK_3rd 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    For all intents and purposes, when referencing democrats and Republicans the two lefts are the same.

    The old left have already moved to the Republican party. That's why you now see the yards with Trump signs along side a local union/labor sign.

    Democrats, and the SJW left are generally unrestrained. They are the same. It's another reason the American communist party

    [–]JasonCarswell 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

    They are NOT the same.

    You should read what I already explained. The old-Left was about everything from anti-pollution and anti-war to unions and healthcare. They cared about people at large, whether you agreed with their ideas or not.

    Antipollution was corrupted into the Climate Change Scam and somehow the corporate Dems are all for Moar War. They destroyed unions and won't even consider healthcare. The only socialism they support is big business bailouts and the largest socialist project on Earth - the US military. This is NOT the old-Left. This is the business corporate left and they've taken over everything.

    The old-Left still exists and fights the Dems and SJW-Left. Call them 3 lefts if you want. The old-Left is distinct and separate, now more than ever.

    If you continue to equate them like an idiot I'll have to call you out as a liar shill ever time I catch you. It's like calling all conservatives, Republicans, Alt-Right, Pinochet, and Nazis the same thing - and we know they are not.

    [–]Dragonerne 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

    The old left doesn't exist in my world. Where are they?

    [–]JasonCarswell 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

    I and others frequently share old-Left content on SaidIt. For examples, read:

    what I already explained

    I also share Conservative, Right, Alt-Right, Green, Libertarian, and Anarchist/Voluntarist content too.

    [–]Dragonerne 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

    Maybe the old-Left are just part of the right now?

    Could you provide something from the left that I would classify as left wing? What makes them left wing? Economics? Then I'm left wing lol

    [–]JasonCarswell 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

    " Maybe the old-Left are just part of the right now? "

    Most certainly not. However you can definitely say that many if not most of the old-Left reject the insane SJW Corporate BLM™ Dems' narrative. So that makes them part of the majority.

    Read what I already explained and that thread.

    [–]bobbobbybob 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

    I thought your post pretty much said it all. The responses have been prime examples of what you were saying.

    [–][deleted]  (1 child)

    [deleted]

      [–]Chipit 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

      What list?

      I'm pretty careful to argue, but I'm not perfect. The pyramid of debate really helps.

      Maybe you can be the one to tell me why the US needs to give billions in welfare to a continent of wealthy First World democracies who despise us.

      [–]Questionable 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

      Um... Check your sub. This is s/memes , I have no idea how you drew that much from this little.

      All of that, everything you just typed out happened inside your own skull. There is nothing here that was thought provoking on any such level.

      Allow me to sum up this meme that you drew so much insight out of.

      It simply says, "Leftist bad". That's all this was.

      How the fuck did you do this? Better yet, why?

      [–]Chipit 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

      Would you like to engage with, or refute any of the ideas presented? You are only using personal attacks on me. This is specifically not allowed by Saidit, per the Pyramid of Debate that provides the foundation of the site's culture.

      All of that, everything you just typed out happened inside your own skull.

      https://newdiscourses.com/2020/07/woke-wont-debate-you-heres-why/

      You should really go and read this. I was right that you wouldn't click the link, that's why I quoted the salient part. It explains a lot about left-wing ideology and why you won't debate. You might learn something. Heck, your own comment is a refusal to debate. You didn't raise any of the issues, you didn't say which parts were wrong and why. It's entirely in tune with the thoughts presented in the essay.

      [–]JasonCarswell 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

      I was right

      And yet so wrong.