30% of Republicans Now Openly Support Violence

submitted by EthnocratArcheofuturist from self.debatealtright

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[–]YJaewedwqewqClerical Fascist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Slavery as punishment for crimes isn't really slavery though, unless those people are literally commodified.

If you are performing penal labor, you aren't a slave, you still (at least theoretically) have some rights, and you're not property, especially not in the legal sense.

If you were to sell people to private citizens as punishment for a crime, THAT would be slavery, and would be bad for similar reasons.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

the 13th amendment abolished slavery and involuntary servitude, except as punishment for a crime. So they, the radical republicans of Abe Lincoln, understood that same difference you mention. They still would have called it slavery, just justified and allowed.

[–]YJaewedwqewqClerical Fascist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

True, however I would say that referring to it as slavery is a misstep, especially if you want to preserve the system. It would be better to refer to it as "penal labor", even if such is technically euphemistic, because there are distinct differences between the two systems that justify such a difference in wording. Especially today, since at the time of the 13th amendment, slavery wasn't seen in general as being as bad and scornful by most as it is today, and penal labor was the norm, even the default, back then as well. Therefore, one arguing that penal labor should be kept and/or expanded would likely want to use such a distinction to avoid giving opponents undue opportunity to muddy the waters or elsewise mischaracterize your argument.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I'm wary about that, trying to change definitions based on official things like amendments to the constitution, based on being worried what woke people will think. If you're forced to work, and you have no say, you can't quit the job for example, that to me is slavery. Now there may be a reason why you're a slave. Being grabbed from africa, being born a slave, is different from being punished for a crime with forced labor. I suppose woke people will want to outlaw that so prisoners just can sit around all day, resulting in more criminals trying to get into prison for 3 hots and a cot. We do need to make prison worse, make the punishments worse.

[–]YJaewedwqewqClerical Fascist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I suppose woke people will want to outlaw that so prisoners just can sit around all day, resulting in more criminals trying to get into prison for 3 hots and a cot. We do need to make prison worse, make the punishments worse.

it's less about that and more about reinforcing anarcho-tyranny; in our current system, prison is horrible for people who are reformable and are mostly normal, but is great for violent thugs and career criminals. Obviously it should be bad for everyone, and especially bad for career criminals and the like, but the globohomo regime that rules the West wants to maximize harm, especially to Whitey.

Ideally the justice system would seek to reform those who can be reformed and severely punish/utilize those that cannot be.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

whether reforming, or punishing, I don't care so much, it's really just to get them off the street so they're not robbing us.

[–][deleted]  (1 child)

[deleted]

    [–]YJaewedwqewqClerical Fascist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Slavery as a punishment for a crime is still slavery.

    Indeed, but it depends how broad your definition of slavery is.

    You're comparing this kind of slavery with chattel slavery to draw such conclusions, but in reality there are multiple systems that can be called slavery.

    I'm aware there were other forms of slavery, but chattel slavery is the type generally referred to. I guess under other types of slavery penal labor would in fact classify as slavery and/or indentured servitude.

    The issue I have with leasing/selling slaves to private companies is that two problems then arise: those slaves could be taking jobs that normal citizens want or need, and only creating a few (those few jobs created being those looking after or otherwise caring for said slaves) and the possibility of escape.

    Ideally penal labor would be used to perform unpleasant or unprofitable jobs that normal workers would never reasonably want or be expected to do. Take for instance some types of farming that, without significant automation, are very unprofitable; unpaid labor eliminates this issue and allows these products to be produced and go to market without concerns for losing money from having to pay workers.