Ever noticed that lesbians have the least spaces out of the LGBT community?

submitted by RedditHatesLesbians from self.Lesbians

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[–]writerlylesbian 22 insightful - 1 fun22 insightful - 0 fun23 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

What's driving the ideology is misogyny and homophobia. It doesn't matter how many times you or anyone else try to explain nicely that you/we just want our own space. Wanting our own space IS the problem to these people. The regressive left have been demonising lesbians in this way for years. The left-wing and LGBT media all published multiple articles celebrating the end of Michfest in 2015, because it was apparently such a 'hateful' space. In reality, it was a festival where lesbians could get together and have a good time. But because the lesbians said 'no dicks' that was a hate crime, apparently. I have seen so many lesbians waste hours of their lives trying to argue in good faith with these abusers. Never be drawn into a situation where you are trying to justify why you should get to have your boundaries. Do you ever see men doing that? Nope. Forget about all the lies the left tells about being pro-woman, pro-gay etc. None of it stands up to scrutiny, sadly. Not saying that the right is any better, obviously. But the left are not the friends of lesbians.

[–]SpatOuttheKoolaid 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

I have always considered myself a progressive until the last few weeks. I still consider myself part of the left, but this past month has really made me open my eyes to the left, really really made me look at cancel culture, and I've been noticing more and more mysogyny in the left as I've been on my peak trans journey over the last couple of years. I never thought I wouldn't say I was a progressive, but I can't see TRA stuff, "sex work" stuff, cancel culture, political violence, book burning, censorship as remotely progressive. I will never be on the right but my eyes are deeply open. The more I open my eyes the more "politically homeless" I feel as a lesbian. We wouldn't even be able to physically gather in a group (as we an here) in a liberal city--rather that be in a "terf meeting" or an old fashioned lesbian bar... without being violently attacked by the left, and that's terrifying

[–]writerlylesbian 20 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 0 fun21 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Okay, so I'm about to say something. It's something I've said before on multiple occasions, and sometimes I've had people get very upset with me (without being able to actually refute my point). The Left destroyed the lesbian movement in Western Democratic Societies, not the Right. Obviously, the far right isn't fond of the LGB (or the T for that matter). In countries like Russia, far-right governments in Eastern Europe, not to mention other countries like Brazil etc. - gay people get a shit deal, and a very dangerous deal. Not disputing that.

However, if we're going to talk about the much-vaunted democracies of numerous countries like the US, Canada, UK, Western Europe, Australia, NZ - then it was the Left who successfully got all the lesbian spaces and lesbian political advocacy shut down, not the Right.

The proof of how much the Left hates us is evident from the fact that we are even here, on this platform. Saidit would probably be largely regarded as a right-wing space. And while the Saidit crowd seem to certainly be rather bemused to suddenly find themselves flooded with LGB and feminist refugees, they are at least letting us have our fucking spaces here for now, however begrudgingly.

One of the only groups in the US who has let lesbians speak publicly about the issues affecting us is the Heritage Foundation, a conservative Christian organisation. And the lesbians who did that and went and spoke there, because they believed it was so important to actually get the word out about what was happening, were immediately cancelled by the Left for aligning themselves with religious bigots. Refuse to let the lesbians speak, then punish them for going and speaking to the people who would listen. Lovely.

I think a lot of people really need to seriously interrogate (to themselves) what their values actually are - what does 'left' mean to them? What does 'progressive' mean? What is the future they want to see? Are the political parties/individuals they support actually working towards that vision? If not, who is? Most people don't really think about these things very deeply (and I think increasingly many are too scared, too apathetic, too confused or too disgusted by politics to want to go anywhere near it) and have a very superficial allegiance to a nebulous set of values that makes them feel good, but which in fairly disconnected from the way their political parties are working in the real world.

[–][deleted] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

This isn't really true. Take a look at the main drivers behind the trans movement - it isn't a group of leftists, it is actually a group of billionaires. The fact the left has eaten up the fake science and propaganda disseminated by the media is true. But they are not the source of the problem. As much as I understand the frustration we have with "the left", we have to understand what is really happening here and hold those people accountable. According to this article, the trans movement is led by a group of rich, white men - with the main goal of selling drugs and raking in the profits. A lot of young people have bought the lies and fallen prey to the movement. Most of them aren't inherently bad. Some opportunistic men are taking advantage and wreaking havoc on women. But this would not be possible without the sponsorship and promotion of this agenda by the media, doctors, drug companies, etc.

[–]writerlylesbian 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I think it's too reductive to simply point to one cause, or one group, and say, it's them! they did this! The trans thing has a fairly long and complex history, and it was a combination of factors that got us to where we are now, not just one group pulling strings behind the scenes. Also, even if we allow that the 'true actors' pushing this are a group of rich, conservative men, it's absolutely undeniable that the Left has taken up this cause and run with it. They are not questioning the media, doctors, drug companies and all the rest, they are supporting it. Maybe some of them have been hoodwinked, but that still makes me question the efficacy of the people in a political movement who are so easily manipulated.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I respectfully disagree. I guarantee you that as soon as the funding dries up, the movement will disappear as fast as it appeared. There will still be trans people, don't get me wrong, but the massive amounts of money and power they have now will cease to exist.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

The right is using the lgb right now, same as the left. Don’t be fooled. The truth is that none of them really care much about us, but we have more allies among the left. They just failed to take away the rights of trans and gender-non-conforming people (I.e. butch lesbians, etc) to be discriminated against in the workplace. If they would have been able to exclude trans people from employment the rest of us would have been screwed too, as I understand it, they are also pretty much constantly trying to take away the right to abortion, and any LGB related education in schools. Not just trans. The right is not on our side.

Also: lesbians have always been vilified on the right and the left. They didn’t want us in the women’s movement at all. I just think we stand a better chance of negotiating within the left if they ever get their shit together. But I am not American so if you are, maybe it’s different for you. From outside America, the right seem to pretty consistent with outdated religious ideals, gender shit, anti-woman takes (especially in regard to our bodily autonomy), pro-gun, and homophobic values (they don’t really know the different between a trans woman and a gay man, and that was pretty clear when I watched the Julia Beck stuff, and the left doesn’t either).

[–]writerlylesbian 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

My position has always been that neither the left or the right care about women's issues. I'm just not sure I agree that there are more allies among the left, more reasonable people among the left, that there is more room for negotiation with the left - I don't think those things are borne out by what is playing out on the ground.

I'm also not sure I agree that the right is rabidly anti-gay and religious everywhere. (May be in the US, I don't live there). Certainly if we look at the UK, it's the political conservatives who are currently stepping up to protect women's rights and putting some boundaries around the transing of kids. And it's not being done from a Bible-thumping perspective. (I don't live in the UK either, but I'm a lot more familiar with what's happening over there, and have spent time in the country so I have a better idea of what it's like culturally).

I also dislike this idea that women/lesbians are so dumb they can't go near a conservative group without being hoodwinked into somehow working for some secret anti-gay agenda. Someone so lacking in political astuteness probably shouldn't be an activist in the first place, and will be hoodwinked by everyone regardless of what agenda they're pushing.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The anti-gay agendas are not a secret with many of these organizations though. I don’t think these women are dumb, I just think they are willing to throw lesbians under the bus. I think they know what they are doing exactly and are willing to see lesbians as collateral damage. Many of them are not lesbians, and are in positions where they wouldn’t be affected by laws allowing gender non-conforming women to be fired alongside trans people. I just can’t sign on for something like that, personally.

It’s a pretty difficult situation and I admire the courage of people like Julia Beck who was obviously conflicted about what she was doing. I hope the people she and wolf have allied themselves with are not anti-gay and anti-woman, but I am not hopeful.

I agree about women’s issues, no one cares about them, but the right tries harder to stop abortion and that is an intensely hypocritical position considering their other views.

[–]writerlylesbian 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I wasn't saying I think the right-wing women are dumb, I was saying that it's pretty infantalizing to assume that feminists and/or lesbians are too politically naive to be able to make strategic alliances on certain issues and not be taken advantage of by the Big Bad Right. And anyone who IS that politically naive, will be taken advantage of by everyone. (Which does happen pretty regularly in activist groups, especially inexperienced groups).

It is also an abuser tactic, to tell the person (or in this case class) being abused that the rest of the world hates them so much that they are safest with the abuser and will fail and be even worse off if they leave the 'protection' of the abuser. That's pretty much what the Left has been doing to women and the LGB for a while. Don't have the patience to be lectured to like that by the dude-bros, personally.

If the Left are going to refuse to let lesbians speak, and then turn around the demonise the lesbians for going and speaking on another platform, then that is a problem wholly created by the Left, not the lesbians. And of course the Left is going to be angry at the lesbians for not doing what they're told, because it's about control. The right wing thing is just obfuscation. If those lesbians had been hosted by the Most Left Wing Socialist Society Ever! (TM), the Left still would have been just as angry about it. They just would have made up different bullshit reasons as to why the lesbians were wrong.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think some critics, like myself, are responding to actual things and actual deeds, not just the “idea” of the right as Big Evil. I think unilaterally holding up the left as to blame is the exact same thing the left does. The left and right react to eachother publicly. That’s about all they do in public, but the legislation they are pushing is the thing to pay attention to.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I don't know what country you're in, but the US in general is vastly more right wing and religious than their European counterparts. Religion still plays a huge role, especially in conservative politics. We can't go near them, they don't want us, and every policy they support, I oppose. We have zero common ground. The left certainly has it's problems too. Neither of them care about women. But going from one wolf to another is just dumb and pointless. We need an alternative.

[–]writerlylesbian 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm not in the US. And yes, even from the perspective of an outside observer, it does seem that fundamentalist religion plays a big role in politics. However, my initial point wasn't about anything to do with the right being better than the left, or that we should 'ally' ourselves with the right, or that the right are our friends. The point I made was that it has largely been those on the left, and left-wing organisations, which have SUCCESSFULLY dismantled lesbian spaces, and the ability of lesbians to advocate politically on our own behalf. Yes, I'm sure the right have all sorts of things they'd like the bring in and enact. But they haven't been successful at it, at least not to date. While the Left has.

[–]SpatOuttheKoolaid 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm really starting to open my eyes to this.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Exactly, any kind of “terf” activity is heavily protested by fucking triggered clowns.

[–][deleted] 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I’ve seen people say dumb shit like “segregating people is not the answer,” but actually, when you’re less than 2% of the global population (lesbians), you do need your own spaces because finding each other is difficult and we need to be able to support one another without harassment. Lesbian women are the only group who are not allowed to gather together, it is absolute homophobia and misogyny. And it is SO OBVIOUS. I mean, we wanted to be able to gather alone when it was just lesbians and bisexuals, before all the transitions. Lesbians wanted to be able to gather alone because the bisexual community was filling with women who were not that into women, and it was a problem that we couldn’t have lesbian only spaces THEN. You don’t see us cruising into trans a bi spaces and yelling at people and practicing “whataboutery” when bisexuals are DOUBLE OUR NUMBER. The far right and the far left are almost identical in strategy, but the right have been arseholes for longer so they are better at it. Lol.

But you’re right, arguing is absolutely pointless because both sides want to tell women what to do and what’s good for them, and somehow it always involves being available to men. Lolol

[–]writerlylesbian 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

These people don't understand the history and purpose of the actual civil rights movements, which is what they are lazily referencing. The idea was everyone should have the same 'civil rights' - ie civilian rights - in terms of participation opportunities in society. Like right to an education, to a career of their choice, right to vote, own property, have bank accounts, the right to keep their own money, to run for political office if they wanted to, to live where they wanted to - those kinds of things.

It did not mean every entitled arsehole gets to barge their way into whatever minority group they feel like, because they're 'excluded' by not being part of that minority. Lesbians are not hoarding political and social power from anyone by gathering together. In the warped view of the QT, though, what we are 'hoarding' is the 'lesbian identity' - which they think they should be entitled to claim, and which they think they CAN claim if they can just bully lesbians enough into pretending to go along with their bullshit. Which is utterly insane, because you're either a lesbian, or you're not. If you're not, then nothing can make you one. End of.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I feel bad for people who want to be lesbians but can’t. Being a lesbian is great despite all this new/old bullshit. But yes, people who reference huge movements as examples of why this or that is bad today are like logical fallacy factories. The trans movement basically copies every big movement. One of my friends was like “you know.....they tried to vilify gays just like this..they said gays were mentally ill perverts.” GAY is a sexual orientation. gay rights are not the same as “wrong body feelings” that require the entire world to be part of the treatment plan. Gays wanted to be left alone to live their lives, not change the meaning of man and woman. It’s completely different stuff.

And now they use intersex and two spirit as supports of trans ideology. Those groups are pretty damn irritated too