Before the madness - The Slope : "Straight-Acting", "Internalized Homophobia", "Sexists interpretation of Femm/Masc"

submitted by DummDick_998634230 from (self.LGBDropTheT)

Before all the TQ+ madness begin, did anyone see the slope that lead to it before? I'm sure there are lesbian equivalents of what I'll be describing as I've heard of some of them, but I'm mainly speaking with a gay male perspective.

A few years back on Reddit, I've usually browsed gay subs like gaybros, askgaybros, gay, r/ainbow, ect. Content was pretty decent back in the day, but I can't help but notice flamewars erupt somewhat frequently. Most of the flamewars consensus I've seen usually went along the lines of "Masculine gay men who are into other masculine gay men are just straight-acting" and "Masc gays have internalized homophobia, bish just let you inner-gay run wild!". Such topics has always worried me, why can't they just be themselves? For a community who's slogan was "Be yourself" they always act like there's a tiny "Terms and Conditions" to it.

Flamewars like this were usually started by those edgy and rebellious feminine gay men who seemingly can point out every piece of toxicity in masculinity despite being their misogynistic interpretaion of being a stereotypical feminine women. (IE: Being bitchy, princess-y, bratty, gossipy and manipulative.) I've also heard some lesbians' stray complaints how some edgy masculine lesbians' interpretation of being masculine is to be a lazy asshole that talks about their gfs as if they're just their personal toys. Like what the hell? Most of the flamewars I've seen were also started by such petty reasons too; such as being denied in a hookup/dating up, where literally everyone is shallow, or meeting the rare "Anti-Femm" gay men which now they use to put such a massive blanket on every masc gay men (Which really just caused more masc gay men to become "Anti-Femm" at the time).

.

Everytime such flamewars erupts it usually goes like this:

  1. Femm gay complains about something petty and puts a blanket over all masc gays. besides the good ones

  2. Eruption of flame against masc guys starts, calling them fake, straight-acting and having internalized homophobia.

  3. Masc gays blow backs and put a massive blanket of femm gays.

  4. Some sane people gets too tired of everyone's shit and finally starts a "Peace" post calling everyone calm down.

.

I wonder what your thoughts are on this? Did lesbians encounter a similar problem before? Did you even encounter this problem before? Was this a part of the slope that lead to the TQ+ madness, paved by those edgy and rebellious activists who were really just in it for the thrill?

Sorry for the long rant, it's been on my chest for a very long time. Now that most of the people move on to becoming edgy "queers", "enby", "DEERS" and such. I felt like it's time to unearth this topic.

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[–]deliciousdogfoodmy name isnt a puppyplay reference i swear 21 insightful - 1 fun21 insightful - 0 fun22 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Accusing people of internalized homophobia is these idiots' go-to when they couldn't simply attribute criticism of their toxic personalities to homophobia classic.

I've been accused of internalized homophobia countless times by people who think that me criticizing all the disgusting nooks and crannies of mainstream "gay culture" is somehow an attack on homosexuality, and not the corrosive movement that has coagulated around it. Yeah, sure buddy. Me saying that pozzing being made legal in california was disgusting, and that the glorification of daddy issues is super creepy is definitely an attack on homosexuality.

Because as we all know, being self destructive, opinionated and mentally unstable are undivorceable from homosexuality as a biological phenomenon. Yep. Definitely.

[–]DummDick_998634230[S] 14 insightful - 3 fun14 insightful - 2 fun15 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Accusing people of internalized homophobia is these idiots' go-to when they couldn't simply attribute criticism of their toxic personalities to homophobia classic. I've been accused of internalized homophobia countless times by people who think that me criticizing all the disgusting nooks and crannies of mainstream "gay culture" is somehow an attack on homosexuality

It really is annoying how you can't point out the degeneracy of certain people without them retreating to thinking you're against them for being gay. Like no, dude. I'm not calling you a degenerate for being gay, I'm calling you a degenerate for showing up with a harem of pups in bondage gear in a PRIDE EVENT with CHILDREN.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

These people are charlatans. I will never endorse degeneracy, and I will always encourage gay men to have good relationships with their fathers if they can. But these woke assholes want gay men to be separated from their families and their communities so that we will be dependent on woke culture as we die of drug use.

[–]PenseePansyBio-Sex or Bust 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

these woke assholes want gay men to be separated from their families and their communities

Which leads to THIS unsettling thought: who are the groups best-known for such tactics? Seeking to separate people from their families, friends... communities? Any and all sources of support? To ISOLATE them?

Abusers. And... cults.

[–]mvmlego 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Me saying that pozzing being made legal in california was disgusting

What exactly are you referring to here? I haven't followed the issue closely, but IIRC, knowingly putting a non-consenting person at risk of AIDS was downgraded from a felony to a misdemeanor. Is that accurate, or am I missing something big?

[–]deliciousdogfoodmy name isnt a puppyplay reference i swear 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

You're right, it was downgraded from a felony to a misdemeanor and now carries up to 6 months prison time instead of far more warranted 3-8 year prison term.

Being made "legal" was an inaccurate statement on my part, it was years ago that I last read about the ruling so the details were very foggy. Still disgusting, especially that they did the same thing to knowingly donating HIV infected blood. The fact that people defended pozzing as a fetish astounded and revolted me to no end.

[–]mvmlego 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Thanks for the clarification. The justification that I heard is that because treatment of AIDS has gotten much better, the life expectancy for someone who contracts it is longer, and therefore infecting someone with HIV is less harmful. I understand that reasoning, but 6 months still seems pretty light, especially for donating blood.

[–]deliciousdogfoodmy name isnt a puppyplay reference i swear 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, I don't think that knowingly and intentionally infecting someone with a life threatening disease (To people with existing medical conditions it can still be a short term death sentence) resulting in them being dependent on a drug for the rest of their life that could potentially put them at the mercy of people like Martin Shkreli should be anything less than a criminal offense.

How is it fair at all to the people that now have to live with this shit that the person who did it to them gets basically a slap on the wrist? And this goes triple for intentionally donating infected blood. That's beyond malicious.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yes. I saw the slippery slope coming when a certain type of gay men tried to impose gay stereotypes on all gay men. I say a certain type, because I don’t think all feminine gay men were participating or even complicit in this - but a lot of gay men wanted every gay man to act a certain way. These gay men did not just attack masculine gay men. They also attacked feminine gay men who weren’t rude, sarcastic, obnoxious, narcissistic, catty, vapid assholes like themselves. Those specific gay men dominated Hollywood and the media because the industry attracts narcissists. So they got way too much influence. And of course, while attacking masculine gay men, these same narcissists would try to have sex with masculine gay men, and even sexually harass straight men, and later cry about being victims of homophobia when those straight men they’d harassed stood up for themselves.

But that wasn’t the only slippery slope. I’ll explain more when I come back to edit this comment, because I have to get back to work.

EDIT: Back on my break now. Anyway, another slippery slope I’ve noticed with gay men was the depiction of “gay men” in the media dating women, and still calling themselves gay. I heard of this British series called Bob and Rose, about a gay man who falls in love with a woman. But he’s gay. He never acknowledges being bisexual, he kept insisting he was gay. Bob and Rose was not the only show or movie that did this. The British version of Shameless had the main gay character date a woman not one, not two but THREE occasions. Writers of these shows defended these unrealistic portrayals because “everyone’s a little bit bisexual”. This gave rise to TRAs demanding that homosexuals sleep with transgenders. Look, if you’re a man who’s attracted to other men, but also dating a woman, just admit that you’re bisexual and be done with it. If you’re into members of the opposite sex, you’re not gay.

Finally, back in the 2000s it was relatively okay for a gay man to be a conservative. Even in America. Nowadays, not being a Marxist will get you kicked out of certain gay circles and you’re not allowed to have conservative viewpoints if you’re gay. Which I find very ironic, because back in the 2000s, only Massachusetts had gay marriage, only four other states had civil unions, and only a handful of other states had domestic partnerships; you also could not be open about you’re orientation if you were in the US military until 2011. Now gays can serve in America’s military, get married and adopt in every state, and also donate blood after a 3-month period of abstinence. But being a gay conservative in America is considered an act of treason. In Ireland, gay rights has also been hijacked by either Marxists or neoliberals. Leo Varadkar was our prime minister from 2017 to 2020, and the left hated him because his party was centre right - his party, Fine Gael, are only right wing by Irish standards. The party is still extremely woke. All this hostility has led to echo chambers forming within the gay community, in which TRAs could subvert and takeover.

That’s all I’ve got to say.

[–]DummDick_998634230[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

but a lot of gay men wanted every gay men to act a certain way. These gay men did not just attack masculine gay men. They also attacked feminine gay men who weren’t rude, sarcastic, obnoxious, narcissistic, catty, vapid assholes like themselves.

I see, a similar view as REPTILIAN. It was more nasty than I thought it originally was.

But that wasn’t the only slippery slope. I’ll explain more when I come back to edit this comment, because I have to get back to work.

I gladly await your input on this. :D

[–][deleted] 12 insightful - 3 fun12 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

For a community who's slogan was "Be yourself" they always act like there's a tiny "Terms and Conditions" to it.

I've always wondered where compulsory heterosexuality ends and compulsory homosexuality begins.

[–]reluctant_commenter 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

This is really interesting. I'm lesbian and can't say I have any firsthand knowledge on this topic, but I appreciate you sharing, and I look forward to hearing what other people think.

"Masc gays have internalized homophobia, bish just let you inner-gay run wild!". Such topics has always worried me, why can't they just be themselves? For a community who's slogan was "Be yourself" they always act like there's a tiny "Terms and Conditions" to it.

I used to have a friend like this unfortunately, lol.

also heard some lesbians' stray complaints how some edgy masculine lesbians' interpretation of being masculine is to be a lazy asshole that talks about their gfs as if they're just their personal toys. Like what the hell?

Have definitely seen some act like this online haha, but I know so few other lesbians IRL that I haven't seen it.

[–]just_lesbian_things 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Have definitely seen some act like this online

Yeah, sometimes I see butches do that, but usually it's a weird mix of "gender" roles. For example, a lot of butches I know of were raised in fairly strictly gender regulated households so they're really good at cooking/cleaning/childcare simply because those things were forced on them growing up. E.g. the bald woman dressed like a lumberjack will coo over babies like a soccer mom.

Also, I've almost never seen butches complain about not getting dates or anything like that, despite seeing a lot of fem4fem stuff.

[–]ChunkeeguyTeam T*RF Fuck Yeah 10 insightful - 4 fun10 insightful - 3 fun11 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

Oh you mean these raging queens

[–]deliciousdogfoodmy name isnt a puppyplay reference i swear 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Vile.

[–]powpowpowpow 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

My friend prefers masc gay men and he has heard quite a lot of trash as well, including being accused of internalized homophobia by a couole of woke friends we had... its just tiring, idk why ppl are so obsessed nowadays to micromanage others

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

idk why ppl are so obsessed nowadays to micromanage others

Some people are just miserable people. They think they’d feel less miserable if other people around them are miserable. A gay man being effeminate simply because that’s just how he is is not going to be bothered by a gay man being masculine. But a gay man who is feminine just because he thinks that’s how gay men should behave will be offended by a masculine gay man, or even a different kind of effeminate gay man, because if he was inclined to acknowledge that those men are genuinely gay, then he’d have to develop a personality. Which takes effort. I bet those “bitchy” gay men hate feminine gay men who are elegant, graceful and sweet, more than they hate masculine gay men.

[–]powpowpowpow 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Good point

[–]dilsencySame-sex community 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I have noticed how not-feminine gay men are bashed online. As if the only explanation for a gay man not being hyperfeminine is that they're lying to themselves and pretending.

Now, I am by no means masculine. But bashing people for fitting into the ideal, or being what is considered conventionally attractive, is stupid, and doesn't make me feel better about myself at all. It just makes the bashers look bad.

[–]OPPRESSED_REPTILIANIntersex male | GNC | Don't call me "a gay", "twink" or "queen" 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

This is weird for me as a feminine guy, because I've pretty much only seen the reverse. "Feminine guys aren't real men/Feminine guys are trans in denial/'Traps' aren't gay/You're not gay if you're into feminine males because they're basically like women"

In fact one of the biggest reasons I don't associate with the LGBT or gay community is that I can't relate to them, because from what I've seen everyone either hates feminine males for existing, thinks they're a commodity/object/quick fetish fuel and not people, OR they think we all have to be "the sassy gay best friend" trope, or that we're secretly "trans girls." In my experience the LGBT is not welcome to gender non conforming people, especially feminine males, unless they are walking plastic surgery assholes like Jeffree Star and James Charles who's entire identity is "I'm gay and obnoxious and don't act like any sane real person would."

A lot of gay communities are "masc4masc" too and that's another reason I don't believe I'm welcome, I just don't fit. This also includes 18+/NSFW spaces... sometimes I feel like the only "fem4fem" guy because I can't seem to find content tailored for feminine guys by feminine guys... it's always NSFW masc gay subreddits, or some weird "daddy top seeking femboy" (yuck) thing, or gay porn that focuses very heavily on masculinity. Which is fine, and I understand why its most popular, people like me are outliers, but thats my reason.

"Straight acting" is funny too because I would say that the obnoxious, only feminine-as-a-kink guys are more "straight acting" (or trying to be) for attempting to emulate heterosexual, sexist gender roles by "being the woman in the relationship" while seeking out masculine men.

Also what context is one's behavior judged exactly? I'm not at all masculine and I'm very open with my femininity. Buuut I don't have "the gay accent" or ever talk about my sexuality, and most people IRL assume I am straight now. Am I "straight acting", or does simply wearing eyeshadow mean that I am "gay acting"? It's dumb.

To answer the main question, I don't think there was a slope. I've always seen a lot of bad in LGBT, it just goes through phases of different flavors. I don't think any of this is new in my opinion, I've certainly seen it for as long as I can recall.

Edit: Also in my experience, stereotypical "feminine" guys are nasty to actual GNC males, I've had a lot of them attack me for not being the "right" kind of feminine (aka not stereotypical and sexist, sexualized behavior) and call me a bunch of names. When people call me degrading shit I don't like, such as "twink" or "bottom" or "queen", it's usually one of those hyper-feminine annoying guys who still thinks typing "sksksksksk" is funny.

[–]DummDick_998634230[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

because I've pretty much only seen the reverse. "Feminine guys aren't real men/Feminine guys are trans in denial/'Traps' aren't gay/You're not gay if you're into feminine males because they're basically like women"

Yeah it was definitely present too, it's was a back n' forth back in the day until some people smack some sense into everyone. All it takes is just for a few stupid people to LARP as if the ebul masc or the bitchy fems are threatening their very existence to start some dumb blanket-throwing flamewar.

I'm not at all masculine and I'm very open with my femininity. Buuut I don't have "the gay accent" or ever talk about my sexuality, and most people IRL assume I am straight now. Am I "straight acting", or does simply wearing eyeshadow mean that I am "gay acting"? It's dumb.

Yeah it's seriously fucking stupid how those terms where thrown so much back in the day. There's literally NO OTHER intrinsic property to being straight other than being attracted to the opposite sex, like do they just ignore so many straight guys with a less than masculine manner? There was an old post of a comparison of 2 guys from instagram, one guy was a makeup artist and regularly wears tons of makeup and the other was hiking and generally looked manly. The gay one was the one hiking and the straight one was the makeup artist, why? There's no innate instinct that tells gay men to act feminine or straight men to act manly, it's their choice to be that way, but it's not like they would've understood that back then lol.

Also in my experience, stereotypical "feminine" guys are nasty to actual GNC males, I've had a lot of them attack me for not being the "right" kind of feminine (aka not stereotypical and sexist, sexualized behavior) and call me a bunch of names.

Yikes, yeah I really don't understand it when more feminine people have a bad habit of inheriting the nasty portions of the stereotypes too. Like what's so hard of just having a long hair, slim body and a general interest of everything without acting catty, kween-like and limiting their interest to stereotypical feminine ones? They throw around "straight-acting" yet it really feels like they're the one acting to make up for their boring personality

[–]blahblahgcer 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I've seen many woke people say that you aren't really gay if you believe in <usually conservative view>. All the ones I know say that Pete Buttigieg isn't really gay because he isn't liberal enough.

It's also very very common in Gen Z media for people to "act gay" or "look gay" etc. There's a big trend on Tik Tok right now where people are coming out as bisexual by..... Rolling up their jeans? And apparently everyone is supposed to automatically know exactly what that means.

This probably doesn't contribute at all to the conversation but it is a weird thing I've noticed.

[–]CaptainMooseEx-Bathhouse Employee 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree that the last decade has beaten down gay men for having boundaries & standards. I think that's why we (on the whole) are not putting up as much of a fight against the TRA nonsense compared to lesbians; we know what happens to us if we step out of line. Despite what they may think, lesbians are divorced from and completely unaware of the lived realities of gay men. We've been dealing with this sort of shoddy, coercive discourse regarding HIV & STI status, morbid obesity, and other traits since at least 2010.

That being said, I have a few quick responses to some of the other commenters:

  1. Regarding the legalization of "pozzing" - if you're having unprotected sex with someone, be it a stranger or someone you've only known for a short period of time, you're a moron and you are equally as dangerous and culpable for your situation. I personally think the decriminalization of HIV transmission makes sense based on how insistent I've seen many people be over the years on having unprotected sex (I've even had to punch guys in the throat because they try and ride me raw while I'm reaching for a condom). If you have unprotected sex, you are not a victim of the consequences be they an STI or a pregnancy.

  2. On the normalization of gay pseudo-bisexuality - this has done a shit ton of damage to gay men because it has led women to think it's okay to harass and assault us. I don't personally think women who date closeted gay men are victims because, frankly, they refuse to observe the body language of the men they date and that's just frankly creepy. A lot of the harassment, assault, and battery I've experienced over the years was hand-waved away with the excuse that, because I'm gay, I should be fine with boobs/having a vagina ground onto my thigh/etc. and that I'm a sexist/misogynist if I say stop it. It's also gone in the reverse where gay men are being groomed into thinking that they have to touch women sexually in order to be accepted by them (the women) because of the harassment they have received for prior objections.