How do we stop the conflation of 'trans' with 'gay' in the eyes of the masses?

submitted by [deleted] from self.LGBDropTheT

With Ellen Page and Kiera Bell in the news lately I've been thinking. A huge reason I think things have gotten this bad regarding what's happened with lumping the T with LGB is that there's a huge push to see 'trans' the same way as 'gay'. Trying to cure someone of same sex attraction is wrong, LGB people are born that way, we are not defective and don't need to be fixed, etc. These are all true, but TRAs want everyone to think the same way about transgenderism, and that's how they get support from people who would otherwise oppose the sexist, homophobic, and regressive nature of it all (besides the bullying and brainwashing).

So how do we stop it? How do we point out that trans and gay are not the same at a conceptual level when someone says something like 'well it would be wrong to try and cure a gay person of being gay, so it's just as wrong to do it to a trans person'?

I have a few ideas:

  1. Studies that seemingly prove the existence of an opposite sex brain in relation to a person's body only prove that homosexuality is innate. These studies have failed to prove the existence of a 'brain in the wrong body' without controlling for homosexuality. They also fail to account for neural plasticity and brain changes caused by a person's upbringing.

  2. Coming out as LGB requires zero effort from others. No one's pronouns have to change, no one's wardrobe has to change, surgery is not necessary, names don't have to change, etc. Compare that to coming out as trans and the difference is obvious.

  3. When an LGB person is unhappy with their same sex attraction it's usually due to homophobia. There also is not a disconnect between reality and sense of self. When a person is unhappy with their sex, the conflict arises because there is a disconnect between reality and perceived sense of self, along with any displeasure at restrictive gender expectations placed on them.

  4. When an LGB person is removed from a homophobic environment and receives therapy or does soul searching to resolve internalized homophobia, the unhappiness lessens, but same sex attraction remains. Conversely, when a trans person is able to see that there is no one way to be a man or woman, is taken out of an environment with strict gendered expectations, and resolves their internalized sexism, fetishes, etc, the dysphoria lessens. In some, it vanishes completely. The need to identify out of one's sex is no longer present or pressing enough to act on anymore. I've read many accounts of detrans women who describe this phenomenon, and it happened to me when I desisted. Accepting one's reality as an LGB person does not erase same sex attraction, however accepting reality as a trans person erases the need to transition.

I would love to hear other ideas for how to combat this kind of thinking.

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[–]davids877Straight Male Man 30 insightful - 1 fun30 insightful - 0 fun31 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

One problem is the masses see 'LGBTQEIEIO' these days even when it's purely an LGB issue. The media pushes this narrative so that every issue always has all the letters. 'Famous Actress comes out as Lesbian or Bisexual, LGBTQEIEIO community celebrates' I'm not sure how you fix this epidemic.

[–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 24 insightful - 1 fun24 insightful - 0 fun25 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is a big problem... news will say lgbtq rights under attack and it turns out its a trans or non binary issue. No effect on sexuality.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

Call me a conspiracy kook, but this is why I don’t trust the news anymore. To fix this epidemic, you’re going to have to convince people not to believe everything they see or hear on the news.

[–][deleted]  (15 children)

[removed]

    [–]GoValidateYourselfuseful lesbian 17 insightful - 2 fun17 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 2 fun -  (11 children)

    Okay but there are actual conspiracy theories that are genuinely ridiculous or actually racist. Like the lizard people, or Jews run the media, or covid conspiracy, new world order. These are all demonstrably wrong. There's a difference b/w getting people to read the news with a critical eye, vs. encouraging them to throw it out and follow any conspiracy youtube channel or 8chan for their "news". That just creates a whole new type of stupidity.

    [–][deleted] 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (10 children)

    Jews run the media

    These are all demonstrably wrong.

    Pick one.

    [–]GoValidateYourselfuseful lesbian 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

    You seriously believe Jews run the media? Then you're a racist idiot. But with a username like "pcpmasterrace" you're wearing your prejudice like a badge of honor. Your post history shows Holocaust denial, a fixation on Jewish race, and "Christian truth". Just so it's extremely clear what your views are. Do you deny it?

    [–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

    You're responding to someone who is not a gender critical Reddit refugee, but rather someone who was on Saidit before the mass Reddit ban. Saidit's primary audience unfortunately is a group of hardcore right-wing, conspiracy theory loving, super racist men. Just look on the front page of Saidit to get a good sampling of the "average" Saidit user. The people who've been forced here from Reddit's gender critical subreddit bans are basically in the minority, forced to an alternative platform that appears to heavily appeal to crackpots.

    I think LGBDroptheT being here might lose its credibility by association in the public's eye (unfairly, the only other place to go really would be Ovarit, a more closed community, but still).

    [–]GoValidateYourselfuseful lesbian 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

    Yeah I know the majority of saidit is far right antisemitism and conspiracy bullshit. I agree that it undermines some of the credibility of this group too. I just felt like the troll needed to be called on his bullshit.

    [–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

    It's a very real dilemma; do you allow blatant nonsense to go unrefuted? Or do you risk giving undeserved attention to someone who's a nutjob?

    It's a very real problem, and I honestly don't know what's best. When someone claims to be a flat-Earther, does refuting it help more than ignoring it and treating is as clearly absurd? It's so hard to know, and the internet makes it so easy for bad ideas to quickly form and spread.

    [–]GoValidateYourselfuseful lesbian 0 insightful - 1 fun0 insightful - 0 fun1 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

    That's a really good point. Personally I tend to argue back just b/c that's what I'm used to doing. It's probably stupid in most cases, and doesn't accomplish very much. In person, I tend to be a lot more careful too. But if there is an "audience" listening who I can convince, I think it's sometimes worth it.

    [–]wafflegaffWoman. SuperBi. 12 insightful - 5 fun12 insightful - 4 fun13 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

    DeathToHetScum

    Couldn't help but notice your username seems a bit extreme.

    [–]Movellon[M] 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

    So did I.

    [–]Movellon[M] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    This might have been an interesting comment, but we don't allow hate speech and therefore this user has been banned because of his username.

    No wishing of death on anyone so you can take a screenshot to use as fake evidence back at our old friend at r/gendercynical as "proof" why it was a good idea to ban us.

    Please report anyone with usernames that express hate, even if the comment appears to be reasonable.

    [–][deleted] 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

    Agreed. Just the other day youtube showed me a video titled 'is japan homphobic?' but the thumbnail had the trans flag in it. Wtf does trans have to do with japan (allegedly) being homophobic? Everyone keeps lumping us together and I don't see how to fix that either.

    [–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 25 insightful - 2 fun25 insightful - 1 fun26 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

    One way to stop the conflation is to support LGB people who oppose trans rights, tell everyone about these LGB opponents of TRAs and promote their work.

    [–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    That's a good idea. Do you know of anyone high profile enough that would get someone to reconsider grouping LGB with T? I know of a few LGB people who oppose TRA drivel but they're all nobodies and as such, no one cares to listen to them. The remaining LGB people (lesbians and bi women mainly) that I knew of have all started drinking the koolaid and started identifying as nonbinary.

    [–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I don’t know anyone personally, unfortunately, but I know we’re not alone.

    [–]Ladis_Wascheharuum 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    We need a catchy slogan. We need branding.

    The unfortunate reality is "if you're explaining, you're losing".

    That said, you can use "LGB" where possible and mention "the T is different". Mention that being gay isn't an illness because it doesn't require hormones or surgery to treat, being trans does. Mention that being gay isn't about demanding things from others, and doesn't involve others, while being trans demands constant validation and change of language from everyone, all the time.

    [–]8bitgay 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    I don't know how it is in other countries, but at least from my experiences in my country I don't think the masses were ever really on our side. The whole thing of "gay men wanna become women", "gay men aren't real men", etc. is very old.

    I think it's more likely that people conflate us all together to criticize us all because they were homophobes just looking for an excuse.

    [–]Three_oneFourWanted for thought crimes in countless ideologies 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

    Your ideas are excelent evidence for why LBG should be separate from the T in all cases, but unfortunately does not provide solution for society's confusion of them. In order to correct society's confusion, we should take effort to correct articles that mention LGBT+++ issues when only one or a few letters is relavent, as well as show discrepancies between the letters as often as possible. Share articles that show how LGB and the T are incompatible, uncooperative, and not a part of the same team. Speak up against woke homophobia and call people out for using their gender identity as an excuse to be a bad person.

    We know the facts are there, but we need to get everyone else to also see the facts

    [–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    I've started reaching out to websites who publish articles that group us together when the reality is it's usually a trans only issue they're addressing. And I wanted to outline the why because I see in spaces outside of this one where people will bring up that 'sexuality has nothing to do with gender identity' which is true, but it can't stop there. Anyone truly on the fence about whether LGB and T should be linked needs to hear more reasoning for splitting them.

    [–]Three_oneFourWanted for thought crimes in countless ideologies 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    Just a few minutes ago, I was watching one of the youtube channels I'm subscribed to and they saw a post that mentioned JK Rowling's supposed transphobia. They were confused because they know her to be a supporter of LGB and thought that LGBT was all one thing. That was actually the exact kind of situation I meant, and I did my best to explain in the comments. Whether they'll actually see it is another story

    [–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    True. In those cases it's probably best to point out the difference whenever we can, and hope it sticks with enough people over time.

    [–]JulienMayfair 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    there's a huge push to see 'trans' the same way as 'gay'.

    This was the whole reason that the trans movement sought alliance with gay rights in the first place. They saw we were making progress and decided that their best bet would be to hitch themselves to our wagon.

    To put it another way, they used us as their Trojan Horse.

    [–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    They really did. And sometimes I'm truly at a loss for how to reverse that. It's frustrating to see that most people don't think critically enough to question it at all. Maybe Kiera's win against the Tavistock clinic will help more people see how toxic TRAs can be and the ideas transgenderism as a concept promotes.

    [–]JVNoctisGay | Male | American | Men Are Amazing | White and Proud 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I just tell people I'm not part of the LGBT community, that I'm part of HBH (Hetero,Bi and Homosexuality).

    [–]HelloMomo 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I always think of Haymitch in The Hunger Games, talking about how it's easy to get the masses to root for a love story.