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[–]firebird 76 insightful - 2 fun76 insightful - 1 fun77 insightful - 2 fun -  (24 children)

Isn't that supposed to be the ideal? Being hired purely on merit, without any other quality you happen to be born with mattering?

[–]Girlwiththeraventat 39 insightful - 11 fun39 insightful - 10 fun40 insightful - 11 fun -  (12 children)

No that's now racists don't you know. Unless you consider the person's skin color before anything else, you are a racist. Actually if you dont favor POV over white people, you are racist.

[–]Shinjin_Nana 21 insightful - 2 fun21 insightful - 1 fun22 insightful - 2 fun -  (11 children)

I've been seeing this more and more. It's not the end of racism, it's just more racism with different targets. POC and minorities don't want equality anymore, they want privilege. It's all punching down at 'karens', back to racial quotas, and the evils of 'white feminism'.

[–]RedditHatesLesbians 43 insightful - 2 fun43 insightful - 1 fun44 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

Respectfully disagree. These articles aren't being written by POC, they're being written by white virtue-signalling morons with way too much time on their hands, and they're actually purposefully provocative for clicks. Anger is the most effective emotion to get people to share articles online. Equality doesn't exist yet, so how could they overshoot? Look at America. This is only happening online. In real life, minorities are being murdered every day.

[–]Shinjin_Nana 20 insightful - 2 fun20 insightful - 1 fun21 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

So hiring musicians for an orchestra should exactly match the demographics instead of blindly looking for talent? The blind audition increased diversity in an organic way, and was proven to work.

"In real life, minorities are being murdered every day." Statistically speaking, by other minorities. A vast majority of homicide and crime is intra-racial, regardless of what those provocative click bait anger inducing articles want you to think.

[–]RedditHatesLesbians 18 insightful - 2 fun18 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

Blind hiring is wonderful. Never said that I disagree with that concept. I doubt that the people writing these articles believe it should change either, they're just written to be provocative.

If even 2 black people were being murdered every year by police that would be too many. Yes statistically black on black violence is a huge issue, do you think that that shouldn't be addressed? That it's somehow okay just because it's interracial? All murder is bad, not just murder that fits your political view. White people are murdered by police too. That's also a problem. You cannot however deny the institutional oppression on a huge scale that minorities face. America was founded on racism and imperialism.

[–]Realwoman 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

No one ever mentions repealing the second amendment and taking away people's guns as the solution even though it will obviously help decrease the deaths. But guns are sacred for Americans on both sides. I wish the far left was focused on something sensible like that, not on performative wokeness and oppression Olympics.

[–]DimDroog 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I wish the far left would focus on the working classes, but we can't have that can we?

Spoiled little upper middle class brats.

[–]Lilith_Fair 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

They've long since abandoned the working class. The working class don't get all the campus woke speaks, woke ideologies, and PC culture. A lot of them are cultural conservatives (oh the horror!). If anything, they've been at war with the working class because "those people are uneducated and stupid."

[–]DimDroog 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If anything, they've been at war with the working class because "those people are uneducated and stupid."

Don't forget racist Bible thumpers who cling to their guns.

It really angers me.

[–]Shinjin_Nana 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree with your first paragraph.

With the rest: you put the lack of equality next to minorities getting killed, as if to infer being murdered by their evil oppressors. I stated a fact to the contrary. So now I'm magically an evil person that is ok with intra-racial violence.

I have a feeling you're reading more into my statement and replying emotionally. I will end the conversation here.

[–]spinningIntelligence 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"Equality doesn't exist yet, so how could they overshoot?"

Well said.

[–]Realwoman 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I saw studies that most POC in America don't agree with many of the "woke" dogmas about them. It's mostly white saviors that push the ridiculous agenda.

[–]Shinjin_Nana 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I stalk on LSA and Twitter so I both agree and disagree with you, simultaneously.

[–]Realwoman 9 insightful - 7 fun9 insightful - 6 fun10 insightful - 7 fun -  (0 children)

Are you a white supremacist supporting the patriarchy? /s

[–]loq453 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

Isn't that supposed to be the ideal? Being hired purely on merit, without any other quality you happen to be born with mattering?

Problem you have is that genetics determine your merit, so qualities you are born with matter. Intelligence is to a large degree heritable and the older a person gets the bigger the correlation between IQ and genetics.

If you had truly blind acceptance in universities in US Ashkenazi Jews and East Asians would be the majority of students. Ashkenazim have the highest IQ and East Asians after them.

Other issue you run into is with sexual dimorphism, IQ studies done on large scale have shown that while women have equal or slightly higher average IQ compared to men, men have a higher variability, so men produce more mentally retarded people as well as more geniuses, so almost all fields where very high IQ is important will have a disproportionate amount of men.

[–]Realwoman 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

And this is a problem why? Also, is IQ all that applicable when it comes to music?

[–]loq453 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

And this is a problem why?

It's not in homogeneous in societies like China or Japan, but for example in Israel where you have groups which have developed apart from each other and have significant difference genetic differences, Ashkenazi vs Mizrahi Jews, you get one group, the more capable one, taking over all important positions in society, and it creates strife. In that case the society should create systems of equalizing outcome to lower the strife. A lot of large empires in history had such social programs.

And again I've heard numerous complaints about the small amount of women among nobel prize winners and generally in high positions in science, but a lot of that is a result of biological differences, and the fact that while on average the intelligence between men and women is equal, men have a lot more extremes, so geniuses are predominantly men.

Hiring people purely on merit will result in massive discrimination, that is all I am saying.

Also, is IQ all that applicable when it comes to music?

Not IQ as such, but I am certain there is a genetic component to musical talent.

[–]Realwoman 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

How is the it discrimination if the most capable people end up getting the job? This is true equality. Are you advocating for equality of outcome? I want the best musicians to play music when it go and listen too it and I want the smartest people to be in charge. Otherwise, it's unfair to to the capable person that gets looked over in favor of someone of inferior talent or achievement, purely for who they are. This is not justice, it's tyranny. And I don't want the doctor operating on me to be a diversity hire, sorry, I want her to be good at her job.

A lot of the differences between groups are cultural btw, not genetic.

[–]loq453 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It is not discrimination, but your outcome will end up skewed. Just look at affirmative action and racial structure of US universities. As it stands a quarter of students at high end universities are Asian, yet Asians make up only ~6% of US population, and this is with affirmative action hampering their enrollment and making it harder for them to enter universities. I personally think that it is bullshit what is being done to Asians in America, but it is done because people at large have complained about the racial inequalities in education.

A lot of the differences between groups are cultural btw, not genetic.

IQ is genetic, this has been shown time and time again, and in almost all of the modern day jobs IQ is the primary determining factor of success. It has been shown that high IQ correlates with high success in life. There are other forms intelligence, which are also genetic, but those are largely unimportant in a modern industrial and information based society.

[–]Realwoman 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't understand the first part of what you're saying. I'm against making it harder for Asians to enter university just because they're higher achievers.

IQ is genetic but differences between the IQ of different ethnicities are not well established.

[–]sisterinsomnia 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"And again I've heard numerous complaints about the small amount of women among nobel prize winners and generally in high positions in science, but a lot of that is a result of biological differences, and the fact that while on average the intelligence between men and women is equal, men have a lot more extremes, so geniuses are predominantly men."

There is more to understand than this in who gets awarded the Nobel prizes:

First, in many of the early decades when the prizes were awarded very few women had the kind of training and positions getting to compete for the Nobel required as the first condition. Commonly shared cultural beliefs existed which saw higher education for women as wasted because they were expected to get married and then stay at home. Open sex discrimination also happened, and still happens in some countries, and to some extent who gets nominated for these prizes in the first place may also have been biased against women because the nominations came largely from existing university departments and therefore probably reflected whatever the current power structure might have looked like. It is harder to spot people who don't look the way you expect a genius to look for, if you start with a subconscious idea of how that might be!

Then in many of the relevant academic fields (largely STEM) the actual work is often done by teams, not by some isolated genius toiling in the attic (though Barbara McClintock did work like that for a while, in a shed), and it is possible that women, when very few in a field, have more trouble in getting admitted into teams as the only woman etc.

For these reasons (and for some murkier ones) I would not compare men and women in those Nobel statistics until we come to very recent years. The work someone gets the prize for was usually done several decades before the award is given. That lag means that it is only now we are seeing something more like a level playing field. Women do still get very different cultural messages about the inadvisability of an ambitious career path, the difficulty of combining family and intellectual work when the woman is supposed to do both and so on, which tilts the field a little even now. So I would keep an open mind on this question.

Second, the concept of 'genius' is not that easy to define. We have the myth of the lone genius who is just born that way and can achieve anything he (and it would be 'he' in the myth) without any environmental effects hampering his meteoric rise. But in reality if Isaac Newton had been a shepherd who never went to school we would not know anything about him, and even today there are people born who have minds capable of great things but not the environment needed for those minds to actually produce wonderful findings.

So the culture matters and one's position in the society in general. Women have rarely in the older history received the kind of education that being seen as a genius by others would require as the starting point.

What also matters is understanding that most great discoveries rely on something like the old saw about standing on the shoulders of giants to reach for the stars, and that close scientific communities are very necessary for the development of many of the ideas which later look like they came out of the mind of one person. As I mentioned earlier, women seem still have more trouble in being accepted into male-majority laboratory teams etc, though the Internet is improving their chances of having the necessary debate groups within their fields.

It is difficult to define 'genius,' but clearly it means much more than scoring in the extreme upper tail of some distribution. Producing very important results also requires much hard work, and for someone to be able to do that, others must care for that person's additional obligations, such as children, household chores, care of elderly parents, and so on. And much luck or privilege may be required for someone to pass all the obstacles en route to get to the starting position for the Nobel races. That process is not equal to all demographic groups.

The topic of what intelligence is, if it is inherited (about fifty percent of one (imperfect) measure, the IQ, appears to be), and how we can measure it is far too big to address here, but it's not the same thing as just the IQ, and it's not the same thing as just mathematical IQ.

[–]firebird 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

What you're saying in both this comment and your follow-up skips over some very important nuances, and you're equating things that simply shouldn't be equated.

Starting with the latter: you equate IQ with intelligence, while scientifically speaking, these two aren't the same. Intelligence is defined broader than IQ is, and less is known about the group differences in intelligence, which is quite relevant to this conversation.

Aside from that, there are more factors that are relevant to IQ differences than just ethnicity. Time plays an important part: IQ scores have been rising over time, and as you have already mentioned, when a person gets older, genetic factors start to win out over environmental factors. There are also factors like socioeconomic class, and what opportunities someone has when it comes to education. There are even theories about nutrition playing a role.

And this is just talking about genetics. In recent years there has been more attention for epigenetics, and the way genetics interact with our environment. I'll use your example of the genetic component to musical talent. There are most certainly indications that there is in fact an heriditary element to it, but this brings other elements with it. A musically gifted child is more likely to have parents that are also gifted, and more likely to then nurture this trait in their child. When the child gets older, they will then likely seek out other environments that suit this gift, like an education in the field, other people that are also interested and gifted in music (just to give some simple examples). This helps in further developing what the child was born with.

It also seems important to note that a lot of these things that both you and I mentioned are things that are noticed, theorized, speculated about and debated over. In short: there is no consensus over this, especially when it comes to "racial" differences. So I quite frankly think it's potentially dangerous to make claims like you did (especially something like calling one group "more capable" than another) based on something that is very complex and not even fully understood yet. That, and all you took into consideration was the genetic component of IQ, which in most cases is simply not the only thing that comes into play for deciding who's the best fit for a particular job, and was also not what I meant when I used the word "merit". Worst case scenario, comments like these invite people to be racist and sexist. Best case scenario you provide others not with the full picture, but with only part of it.

[–]loq453 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Intelligence is defined broader than IQ is, and less is known about the group differences in intelligence, which is quite relevant to this conversation.

In this specific scenario of music this is true, but in the grander scheme of things IQ is the most important. Almost all of the modern day jobs depend on IQ, and it has been shown that high IQ correlates with high success. IQ is not the only intelligence, but it is the most important one in today's world.

Aside from that, there are more factors that are relevant to IQ differences than just ethnicity. Time plays an important part: IQ scores have been rising over time, and as you have already mentioned, when a person gets older, genetic factors start to win out over environmental factors. There are also factors like socioeconomic class, and what opportunities someone has when it comes to education. There are even theories about nutrition playing a role.

IQ scores have not been rising over time, in fact Flynn effect has been reversing since the 90s and the average IQ has been decreasing. The very fact that influence of genetics increases with age just shows that genetics matter more when it comes to IQ than nurture. Studies have been done on identical twins who separated at birth and raised in completely different environments, and still the biggest factor was genetic.

And this is just talking about genetics. In recent years there has been more attention for epigenetics, and the way genetics interact with our environment. I'll use your example of the genetic component to musical talent. There are most certainly indications that there is in fact an heriditary element to it, but this brings other elements with it. A musically gifted child is more likely to have parents that are also gifted, and more likely to then nurture this trait in their child. When the child gets older, they will then likely seek out other environments that suit this gift, like an education in the field, other people that are also interested and gifted in music (just to give some simple examples). This helps in further developing what the child was born with.

That just means that the underlying genetic factor gets reinforced by environmental factors, in the end genetics still ends up being most important.

In short: there is no consensus over this, especially when it comes to "racial" differences.

It's been shown over and over again that there are differences in capabilities between ethnic groups, and we see these differences manifest in real world results. The lack of consensus and the "debate" is motivated by political correctness and not facts.

So I quite frankly think it's potentially dangerous to make claims like you did (especially something like calling one group "more capable" than another)

Worst case scenario, comments like these invite people to be racist and sexist.

These statements show why you disagree, you see that factually I am right, but "it is dangerous", just political correctness. Why is it dangerous? Reality is sexist, racist, and dangerous then.

I've never even said what we should do, just laid out what would happen in a truly merit based society. Most societies moderate outcome to limit social strife, US does it with affirmative action, it is actively hampering Asian enrollment in universities because they're too successful.

Even when it comes to sexual differences we moderate outcome. We know that men are physically more capable than women, so we have created sports categories for women where they can compete, otherwise all sports would be just men. Is that too dangerous?

[–]firebird 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Based on that entire last paragraph, it seems to me like not only did you not understand the point I was trying to get across, you're actively misrepresenting it. I've spent enough time attempting to debate people who just heard what they wanted to hear instead of actually listening to what I have to say to know that it's no use.

So I suggest we leave it at this. Have a good day.