Celeste - Little Runaway

firebird · 2020-09-25T20:27:51+00:00

Consider your search over then, I'll PM you one in a minute

firebird · 2020-09-24T12:04:13+00:00

Check your PMs!

firebird · 2020-09-24T12:02:39+00:00

Check your PMs!

firebird · 2020-09-24T10:19:05+00:00

I'll PM you one!

firebird · 2020-09-23T13:23:56+00:00

Thank you for answering my (nosy) question, I think I now at least have a general idea what this is about. I'd also like to say I'm sorry you feel like you're not welcome anywhere. With the current state of the world I feel like a sense of community is more important than ever. Especially if we'd ever like to tackle the many issues plaguing us.

firebird · 2020-09-23T12:27:22+00:00

I'll PM you one!

firebird · 2020-09-23T11:31:17+00:00

I'm curious now. I understand that you don't want to directly state what this is about, but maybe you could say whether it's something directly GC related or something entirely different that leaves you in fear of being banned?

And just know that you're not alone. I've seen others talk about being censored here too, some even to the point of starting their own community.

firebird · 2020-09-23T11:17:14+00:00

It's invite based. I could give you a code, if you'd like?

firebird · 2020-09-23T11:05:58+00:00

Right? It makes no sense, because this is a word that should be important to them as it gives them language to describe things that actually harm them, and they have rendered it meaningless. TRAs don't even seem to care about that.

firebird · 2020-09-23T10:36:25+00:00

Keep in mind that several of the trans women claiming their genitals started smelling like "lady bits" have described this smell as "fishy", which is a sign of trouble for someone with actual "lady bits".

Once again shows they don't know anything about female bodies, yet we are supposed to see their words as proof that they are actual women.

firebird · 2020-09-23T10:26:42+00:00

Most people only seem to talk about the trans kids raised by progressive families, so I'm glad you brought up the ones that are often forgotten about.

I've seen this connection myself as well, but with boys/men who self-identify as trans. They were raised to believe that boys can't be feminine (no long hair, for example), but since they did have an interest in things labelled feminine, they figured they must have been girls all along. Which of course is nonsense because most if not all men don't fit the masculine ideal 100%, but if there's no one around to tell them this, how should these kids know?

firebird · 2020-09-23T10:14:50+00:00

I've seen lots of people claim that it is helpful, but I've been thinking about it a lot myself and I don't see how. For me there's similarities with self-harm, and in that case I understand that in the moment it might feel like a strange sort of distraction, relief or even comfort, but overall it's obvious that no healing is going to come through that path. Basically, I can understand why they might be doing this, but I don't think it's good for anyone, no.

My main reason for not bringing up arguments for this aspect of the rape porn debate is like I said, they're not a threat to anyone else. And I highly doubt that the support for the continued existence of rape porn in some form is for the benefit of this group. It seems more likely that people benefit from these people being around, because that gives them an excuse to keep rape porn around as well, with the added bonus of less scrutiny because now they can label it as a form of self-therapy or something.

firebird · 2020-09-22T21:10:01+00:00

An important distinction to make here is which side is talked about. Especially since at one point there's talk of it being self therapy. If it concerns a rape survivor who tries to deals with it by using rape porn from this perspective, that's something entirely different from someone whose fantasy is themselves raping someone.

A second thing that seems important to note is that it is known that porn in general always leads you further down the rabbit hole. You become numb to what you've been watching, and start looking for something more extreme, and this cycle keeps continuing. So even if (and that's a big if) this is just their outlet for now, it won't stay that way. I think there are sources on this phenomenon on this sub, if you're interested.

Third point: by watching this sort of thing, you're normalizing it for yourself. Just look at the abuse portrayed routinely in porn: there's more and more coverage and statistics about men starting to imitate these behaviours in the bedroom, while the women they're with never consented. If porn was merely an outlet, this stuff wouldn't happen.

Fourth: all these arguments essentially hinge on one thing, that having a fantasy of raping someone is somehow just part of someone's sexuality, or a kink, or whatever you want to call it. It is not, since rape has to do with power, not sex. Again, it's different if it's someone who has a fantasy about being raped, but I think we can agree they don't really pose a threat to anyone, so I'm assuming those are not the people whose arguments you are looking to counter.

The fifth point follows out of the fourth: if it's not part of a healthy sexuality, and if other people might get harmed because of it, the solution should be treatment of some sort, not to feed this fantasy. I don't think anyone has ever been cured of anything by engaging in the same harmful behaviour over and over again, even if it is in a different form.

While not completely the same, I think what is talked about in this article is similar enough, so I'm including it as a source that might interest you: https://filia.org.uk/news/2020/9/10/not-a-victimless-crime-how-child-sex-abuse-dolls-facilitate-crimes-against-children

This is all I could come up with right now, but I'm really tired so I'm sure there are things I missed that I hope someone else might be able to help you out with.

firebird · 2020-09-21T20:20:53+00:00

Apologies for the laziness, but I'm going to copy and paste a comment I made a while back on a similar post. You can find that post here if you're interested: https://saidit.net/s/GenderCritical/comments/5hda/question_is_there_evidence_that_there_is_no_such/

Here are a few interesting articles on the topic that I saved a while back:

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/11/brains-men-and-women-aren-t-really-different-study-finds

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1053811915007697

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnhum.2018.00399/full

https://undark.org/2019/09/06/myth-male-female-brain-gendered/

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/11/08/health/math-boys-girls-brains-scn/index.html?no-st=1573233406

firebird · 2020-09-21T09:11:54+00:00

None of the people harassing her seem to realize that their own reputation and livelihood is hanging by a thread as well. The moment they do something that is considered the current faux pas, they'll be hounded like this too. And let's be honest, this is a likely scenario because we're all human and no one can properly keep up with all these ever changing rules. So when this inevitably happens to one of them they've got themselves to blame, since they helped normalize this behaviour in the first place.

firebird · 2020-09-20T14:39:00+00:00

possibly making their mental health worse by lying to them

Not just their mental health, their physical health as well. I saw this one transwoman talk about bleeding from the anus and calling it menstruation. If this person dies from what might be colon cancer, everyone who supported this has blood on their hands.

firebird · 2020-09-14T14:36:04+00:00

Aside from what the other commenters have already said, I also recommend reading the personal experiences of female detransitioners on this topic. They tend to know others in the same boat, which allows them to give some insight in what appear to be common 'side effects' of their transition/detransition. This is especially important considering the glaring lack of research when it comes to these things.

They have their own communities, and there are a bunch on Twitter (they tend to use lizard emoticons in their username).

The 'reversible' comment is horrible though. These women can have scars and nerve damage for the rest of their lives.

firebird · 2020-09-13T12:45:00+00:00

I've read about the consequences of getting your breasts removed. Doesn't sound at all like celebrating to me.

firebird · 2020-09-12T09:42:51+00:00

Given the content of the post, I thought it might be best to archive this so an online copy of it will always exist.

Here's the link, should you be interested: https://archive.vn/P9Or3

firebird · 2020-09-10T10:48:36+00:00

Seems like gender has about a million meanings these days. If I understood correctly, in English it used to be the "polite" term for sex, and thus meaning the exact same thing. But now I've seen it used as gender identity, gender roles... TRAs say sex and gender are different things, but then use them interchangeably all the time.

So basically, it's normal to be confused by all this, because it's just a mess.

firebird · 2020-09-09T19:55:33+00:00

As it turns out, I have already tried talking to you about some similar stuff, but on the old sub. We didn't find any common ground then either, so I think it's for the best if we just leave it at this.

firebird · 2020-09-09T19:40:23+00:00

Well now it all makes sense, I can't believe I didn't realize this was masks.

Thanks for pointing it out!

firebird · 2020-09-09T19:14:00+00:00

Many wouldn’t. I don’t mind certainly. But generally most prefer trans women to transwoman.

You missed the point.

And that’s why I am still talking to you.

You are not talking to me, you are talking over me. You falsely accuse me, twist my words, claim you know my intentions when you clearly don't.

I certainly hope not. If I thought I was stuck being defined by who I was born I would have simply killed myself rather than transition. I refuse to let the accident of birth define me in the world Espescially when it is so deeply objectionable.

It still defines you, you just have managed to find a way to make peace with it. Which is great, but let's not lie about it. And I can understand that you may find it 'deeply objectionable', but again, that doesn't mean it's the truth or that anyone else has to agree with it.

If you know someone is insulted by a term and use it anyway you must not care. Otherwise you wouldn’t use the term.

Or something else is more important than that person's feelings. That does not mean someone doesn't care.

But you are defending the position. I’ve explained to you both that it is harmful and why. You continue to defend its use. How does that not speak to a lack of care?

So it's not just about not calling you a certain word. Now I also have to agree with you on this, otherwise it must mean I simply don't care. It's not enough to show that I care by honouring a request that I openly disagree with, oh no, now I also have to give up my own opinions in favour of someone else's.

You're on a debate sub. If you think people disagreeing with you means they must not care at all, or that they even want to harm you, you're not going to be having a great time here.

firebird · 2020-09-09T18:23:33+00:00

It is. You don’t call someone something they find that insulting on accident or without malice.

Just because you have decided this, doesn't make it so. Take me as an example. ESL. Did not know the importance of a simple space. Could have called someone a "transwoman" without knowing that they found it to be incredibly insulting.

So you are fine with someone calling someone fat even though they know they would prefer not to be addressed that way?

If it's the truth, then yes.

No you make the debate impossible because you refuse even basic courtesy of not openly insulting the opposite side.

We have been debating this one word that you consider an insult the entire time, and I have not used it against you once. I have done you this 'courtesy', now you do me one by not accusing me of things I obviously didn't do.

Not at all. It’s my present and I embrace it. You want me defined by a deeply unpleasant past.

I don't "want" to define you by anything. None of use have a choice in this, we're all defined by the exact same thing.

You know very well it’s an insult to call a trans women a man.

So you're accusing me of lying.

You just don’t care.

Stop assuming what other people think and feel. You're obviously not good at it.

And whatever you are a free person, but you can’t expect beneficial dialogue when you openly insult the other people involved.

Again, I have not used this word you consider an insult against you, even though I don't agree that it's an insult. Still, I haven't gotten a beneficial dialogue. Instead you have accused me multiple times of things I did not say or do. Clearly, you agree that this is not my fault because I have played by the rules. The only other person left in this conversation is you.

firebird · 2020-09-09T17:35:28+00:00

Calling a trans woman a man is every bit as hateful.

That would mean that hatred is the intent if using that word, like it is with the homophobic slur you gave as an example. It isn't.

And you are saying “ well I’m going to call you that because it’s not an insult because I say it isn’t. And how dare you try to control my speech.”

Not what I was saying. Not sure why you care about the nuance of the absence or presence of a space between trans and woman, but when it comes to my words you can throw all nuance out the window and twist it into anything you like.

Any other label on any other group in that scenario and you would readily agree that the person using the objectionable term was in the wrong.

Not "any other label". Labels specifically designed to harm people. I'm sure plenty of people consider "fat" to be an insult, but I wouldn't automatically label someone using the label to be in the wrong.

You can’t have civil discourse with people who can’t even give basic courtesy of not openly insulting you.

If one side needs that word to be able to voice their perspective, you can't just call it an insult and blame the other side for not being able to have a debate. You make the entirety of the debate on this topic impossible based on the grounds of something entirely emotional.

It is at once a denial of agency

You can't deny something that wasn't there to begin with. You have no agency when it comes to sex, and TRAs keep saying that there is no agency involved in gender either.

a demand we define ourselves by our sex

Sex is important in some ways, and when it comes to those ways, it is important to define people by sex, yes.

a challenge to the legitimacy of trans people at all

How so? A transgender person is transgender because of their sex. That's the whole point.

a call to behave properly as our sex

That's the exact opposite of what GC people call for.

an intended insult

It's not, I told you a hundred times before. You may consider it an insult yourself, but that does not make it an intended insult.

an effort to do mental harm by triggering dysphoria

Again, assuming that there is some harmful intent behind someone using the word 'man', instead of thinking that maybe they have something bigger than that they're trying to say.

defining by an unpleasant medical history or at best body image issue

Then you should have an issue with the term "trans woman" as well.

firebird · 2020-09-09T16:43:38+00:00

It is the same thing.

A slur exclusively used to express hate of a certain group is not the same thing as a term based on a concept that exists across multiple species.

The point is if they can’t do the basic, basic courtesy of not being openly and antagonistically insulting, it won’t ever get anywhere.

That's not what is happening here. What is happening is that you want people to stop using words that are of vital importance to the debate just because you have certain feelings around it. What you are saying is "I only want to have a debate about this when there is no longer a debate to be had".

What would you like explained.

I wanted to know why a term designed to hurt people who are different in some way is more pleasant to you than a term that's merely a description of a concept that simply exists in the world. "Deviant freak" is inherently negative, while "man" is neither positive nor negative.

firebird · 2020-09-09T16:22:17+00:00

It’s nuanced

You don't say. For what it's worth, I don't see the point in general, so GC people wanting to make the distinction there is also beyond me.

We all agree it’s better than man.

Did all of you have a big convention?

If you can talk about gay men without calling them f*gs, you can talk about trans women without calling them men.

Not the same thing.

If someone can’t make the base level courtesy of not calling me something they know very well I consider a Prime and powerful insult, I don’t want to debate them. It won’t be fruitful or civil so what’s the point?

Debates are important if a big group of people with different views ever want to get somewhere. What do you think the point of a debate is?

100 percent. There is no statement that isn’t demonstrably false you could call me that I would be more insulted by than man. That’s my point.

Just repeating your point isn't a helpful explanation.

firebird · 2020-09-09T15:51:19+00:00

Those aren't actually replacements in the literal sense, but I'll respond to them anyway.

Person

Everyone is a person. Of course it's the safest option available and maybe it's good enough for you and me, but I've encountered plenty of people who aren't satisfied with neutral options. I've also seen it used as the non-binary alternative for man or woman.

trans woman, transgender woman, hell even transwoman

Maybe it's because I'm a non-native speaker but I simply don't see the distinction. Don't they all mean the same?

transexual is a gross term

Not all trans people agree on that though. Who should I even follow on this?

They know it will be taken as an insult and know it will be hurtful. To still sue it is willful harm

Again, if people have to stop using it, a debate on this topic simply can't happen. People have to simply give in on a certain point without even being able to discuss that, and I simply don't think that's right especially not since it is based on someone's personal feelings and opinions on the matter.

whatever polish you wish to put to it

You are dismissing other people's concerns, lived experiences, what they wish to talk about in this debate and actual, real concepts as "polish". If you want to come across like wanting debate and not like you just want people to do as you want them to do, then this is not the way to go about it.

I would rather be called a deviant freak than a man.

You'll have to explain this one to me. You'd rather be called something that is always an insult, than something that is just a descriptive term for half the world's population?

Edit: Wanted to quickly add a reply to your comment further down the thread: It's honestly a bit weird to tell people what they should be insulted by, and say that someone who simply does not agree with you must be filled with self-hatred. So far you haven't even provided any objective arguments, it's all subjective and based on feelings.

firebird · 2020-09-09T13:57:35+00:00

Neither of those options is a real replacement for 'man' or 'woman' though. Which is what I was looking for.

To know that someone is wilfully insulting you, they either have to tell you, or you have to be able to read minds. When someone calls you a man when you are clearly a trans woman, there are other possible reasons and it's not necessarily because they want to hurt you.

This is what I meant in my previous comment. If you want a debate to happen on this topic, this is going to have to involve some things that might not be fun to hear. Which is probably the case for both sides, I might add. And the words man and woman will have to be included, because they are simply among the most vital words in this conversation.

Just consider the fact that you just referred to yourself as a trans woman. That would be out of the question as well, if 'man' and 'woman' are insults.

firebird · 2020-09-09T12:51:36+00:00

When descriptive terms become insults, debate on this topic becomes useless in general. Unless you have an idea for what other terms should be used instead of the usual 'man' and 'woman'?

I would also like to add that there's a vital difference in saying that you feel insulted by someone calling you a man, and in claiming that this person wilfully insulted you.

firebird · 2020-09-09T12:39:39+00:00

Thought that was a compromise as well, but I've since learned that there are people who will consider "they" offensive if you use it instead of their preferred pronouns.

firebird · 2020-09-09T12:30:24+00:00

I can't really pinpoint it, to be honest. I was definitely still a teenager, and I think that it was through several references in the media (including series like Friends, which I loved back then). Because this is my approach to pretty much everything, I eventually started looking up information around it. Can't say I really had that many thoughts or opinions about them, I guess it's best described as being accepting and having a live and let live attitude.

I do remember when I learned about non-binary people though. I was around 20 years old and it was through those typical online articles attempting to 'educate' people on all these 'progressive' topics. Again, I like to inform myself on lots of things and different perspectives, which is why I came across these articles. From the start I think I never really 'got' this concept, but just thought that didn't matter and I should just try to be supportive anyway.

firebird · 2020-09-07T12:51:39+00:00

Such a beautiful music video. Thanks for sharing

firebird · 2020-09-07T12:34:29+00:00

What's the title of your novel?

firebird · 2020-09-06T21:47:00+00:00

I'm sorry, I know this is serious stuff, but I just can't stop laughing about the name of one of the people quoted here as trying to erase sex in favour of gender identity. They are called Vilain. Vilain.

Nomen est omen, even while lacking the second L.

firebird · 2020-09-06T21:04:27+00:00

Either you're joking, or I'm just too atheist for this nonsense.

firebird · 2020-09-06T20:55:59+00:00

No, they don't.

firebird · 2020-09-06T20:25:28+00:00

Have you read the sidebar? "Just remember to be civil". Dehumanizing people isn't civil.

I don't believe in all this non binary stuff either, but I'm not going to refer to anyone who identifies as such as "it" and "non-person".

firebird · 2020-09-06T09:19:25+00:00

To further the AITA theme of the screenshot: YTA. "It" is for objects, not people.

firebird · 2020-09-05T10:40:54+00:00

This is just my interpretation so take it with as much salt as you like, but from the way they wrote the article I think they do not see him as a woman, and the pronouns were just a way to try and seem 'politically correct' enough to escape too much backlash.

Just look at the article, he's never referred to as a woman or even a trans woman, they use 'trans person' instead. Then they 'deadname' him, and his new name is framed as if it were a nickname.

firebird · 2020-09-05T10:10:09+00:00

If this is real, I very much doubt this Sam is "a very lovely person in most areas". If you're this controlling, quick to lose your temper and have so little regard for someone you call your friend, that has to show in other ways.

firebird · 2020-09-04T19:11:14+00:00

In case it gets deleted

It's archived now: https://archive.vn/lbC90

firebird · 2020-09-02T20:28:22+00:00

The post was made by a woman though. A woman who felt the need to police other women on how they speak on their own issues, but not men.

firebird · 2020-09-02T09:38:02+00:00

The trick for figuring out if something is empowering or not, is checking if the people who are actually in power are doing it. White men are definitely not portrayed this way, let alone that they would portray themselves this way, so the conclusion should be clear.

And regardless of the message, you'd think that proclaiming a song performed by just two people as representative for an entire demographic would be offensive enough on its own.

firebird · 2020-09-01T17:18:35+00:00

Has mainstream society become so sickened by porn that they believe this is both natural to women and powerful for women?

I think so, yes. Combined with "regular" misogyny. The idea that women are just naturally submissive never really died, so then them chasing it in the bedroom seems logical, I guess.

In the end it just comes down to perspective. If you just warp it enough, you can turn anything into something empowering. The people doing the warping know it's not actually empowering, and the people seeing the message have grown so accustomed to similar ones that they believe it immediately.

Thanks for sharing the article, by the way. It was an interesting read. I don't think I'm anywhere near conservative, but they made a pretty solid analysis on how this impacts different groups and such.

firebird · 2020-09-01T15:24:15+00:00

I haven't seen any articles on it either, just regular people on social media concerned about the message.

The most common reason women and feminists in particular don't speak about it more, seems to be because they consider it a song about female sexual pleasure, and in that sense it would be a good thing. Or they consider it some kind of role reversal. Never mind that it's neither. Maybe not the best example (it's just the first I could think of), but I think something like Ex's & Oh's did both better.

It worries me though. This is being described as "an already iconic song about women sexuality". They've already generalized it. And I haven't seen anyone wonder what the input was of the three men who co-wrote the song either.

firebird · 2020-08-30T22:50:13+00:00

Gender Critical feminists are the only group so far who I heard criticized Cardi B.

Maybe the only ones you heard, but not the only ones in general. Over on Twitter I've seen plenty of people criticizing it. The amount of dislikes on the video is too high to be just GC people.

It's just that the second someone criticizes it, they are called conservative and racist, or when they're men, they're automatically considered misogynists.

firebird · 2020-08-30T22:41:36+00:00

Short answer: no, that's not what it means.

Long answer: your reproductive role is just what part your body would play in the event that you would choose to procreate and in the absence of anything causing infertility. Someone who does not reproduce and/or is infertile still has a body that falls into one of the two categories, and thus is still of the sex of a certain reproductive role, even if that role is technically never filled.

You can take me as an example. I'm a childfree woman. I'll never reproduce, but my body is still specifically built for the female reproductive role, which means I am of the female sex.

firebird · 2020-08-20T14:00:13+00:00

Great article, thanks for sharing!

firebird · 2020-08-20T13:44:50+00:00

Florence Nightingale?! What was the reasoning behind that one?

firebird · 2020-08-18T20:11:25+00:00

Kurt Cobain? Really?

You can't be a man, wear a dress and escape this apparently.

firebird · 2020-08-17T16:55:44+00:00

Never heard of her before today, and I'm wondering how that's possible. She's wonderful.

firebird

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